Hello, Paladin fans! I have been looking at everything Paladin recently and there are a few things different that I would do with the Find Steed spell. Let me know what you think about these changes and rules.
1. Rather than having Find Steed and Find Greater Steed, you have one spell that can be upcast. With a 2nd level slot, it acts as Find Steed. With a 4th level slot, it acts as Find Greater Steed. With a 3rd or 5th level slot, it could have a different list of mount options (CR1 and CR3 respectively) if that doesn't seem too powerful. For these alternate lists, there could be better versions of the common warhorse for Paladins to have a mount that "levels" up.
2. In order to take advantage of the benefits of the Find Steed spell, you must have the spell prepared. Perhaps the steed stays around but when you don't have the spell prepared you don't have spell sharing and telepathy and so forth and the steed is just an intelligent animal? It seems really odd to me that you can prepare the spell, cast it, then wake up the next morning and prepare new spells and you just have a permanent ally with no investment of a prepared spell (you already don't have the investment of the spell slot). It's minor but that way you are focusing some magic focus on connecting to your steed which makes sense. (And yes, I'd have the same rule for other permanent allies such as Find Familiar).
3. Rather than the steed appearing with nothing and the steed leaving behind everything when it is dismissed or reduced to zero, you would have the steed appear with the gear it "owns" and disappear with the gear it "owns". RAW the steed appears with no saddle, no barding, no blankets, no saddlebags, no ten days of horse feed, no colored heraldry for the paladin, nothing. And if you do put all of this on the steed and then dismiss it or have it reduced to zero, it leaves behind a pile of stuff which the paladin now needs to drag along or abandon. I get the need to avoid using the spell as a extradimensional storage facility or way to hide things in another plane when you summon and dismiss the steed. What I am proposing is the steed has the items that the paladin gifts to it, appears with those items, and disappears with those items. The items must be things that the steed uses or wants (as part of their job as a steed) such as saddles, barding, heraldry, etc. No random bags of treasure or extra weapons, only things specifically for the steed. Once given, they cannot be demanded back...but the steed could in theory give them back in instances of upgrades or maintenance. Basically, this means the steed is ready to go once summoned and the paladin is not left with a pile of steed stuff when the steed disappears.
3a. As an optional rule, perhaps the steed can be gifted treasure which disappears with it which the steed could hoard or use for their own purposes (horse bars in heaven?)...but it could be a way for the steed to replace and upgrade its own equipment. Give it enough gold and next time it returns it could have barding made in celestial forges. Or a new saddle after the old one is destroyed. Or bags of horse feed refilled. Or whatever.
Instead of having a permanent ally that you summon that can be killed very easily you want a semi permanent ally that retain all gear it recieves? This is almost as stupid as a homebrew wyvern mount I saw on this site that cant be killed and when unconscious still follows you around.
Notes: Please be respectful to your fellow community members.
If you think it's idiotic then fair enough and don't take these suggested rules. I was hoping for a little more helpful discourse. But I'll work with what I've got.
You seem to bring up two points. I don't see you refuting my first idea of having one spell that is upcast.
You mention that my idea makes for a semi-permanent ally instead of a permanent ally. I assume this is because you'd have to keep the spell prepared under rule 2 above. Without that rule it just seems like more of a class feature and literally every paladin (because every paladin has access to the spell) would just summon a mount one day during time off and just have it. You could even just call it a class feature and let them summon it at will and the only thing that would change is freeing up a spell slot. I don't really get what your complaint is with semi-permanent.
Your other contention is with retaining gear. Here's my second angle on the topic. A horse purchased/rented in town is generally purchased/rented with a saddle and other basic horse needs. For knights and nobles, there is usually some sort of colors or coat-of-arms or heraldry that one would put on their horse. If that purchased horse dies or is returned or sold, generally the saddle might be left with the horse. A horse without a saddle would be hard to ride in combat and probably not good to ride long distances (exception for druids?). And so, to make the game simpler, horses just have saddles when purchased/rented/found. RAW the Find Steed spell summons a naked horse. And so, when summoning while away from a city (locked in tower, shipwrecked, kidnapped in the night, more than a mile away across town, etc) summoning the horse gives you an "unridable" horse. The horse also lacks any heraldry/symbols/etc that the paladin might want to have which seems like something important maybe. I get not having barding appear but that's just a few points of AC to leave the horse less vulnerable and make it more viable for higher levels.
In short, if I were a paladin I would want my summoned steed to walk out of the mists/circle/sky/etc like this:
First Find Greater Steed is essentially an up cast of Find Steed. You get better mounts than Find Steed does.
Second the reason for Find Steed harkins back to past editions where Paladins got Mounts for free. Again The Mount dies fairly fast and requires you to have to recast it to get the mount back.
Third this is a summoned creature. Summoned creatures dont come with gear. How you state this is idiotic as it gives you a free storage of gear as long as it's on your mount. On a terms of spell power this now makes this spell OP. As now you can have a Steed show up that is n intelligent mount loyal to you and does what you say that can now have an 18 AC if it had plate etc. Its ridiculous. If you want to summon the Steed and have gear on it if it dies you have to recover your gear. It's the cost of using the most powerful mounts in the game as you never have to make animal handling checks, the DM never has control of what your mount does, etc.
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Now if you wanted to have a different creature as a mount and made its stats with in reason of the creatures you can get that's completely understandable as it's just flavor at that point.
With what ou propose you're making the spell entirely two powerful for a 2nd level spell slot At no real cost what so ever.
Just as a point of correction, many summoned creatures do come with gear. It depends on the stat block. For example, when the druid summons a group of satyrs, they appear with sword, bow, and leather armor because that's in their stat block.
Technically the warhorse entry does have a sidebar for a variant warhorse with barding and that barding does not alter challenge rating. But yeah, I understand your concern about having a plate mail warhorse.
This would only be if the paladin puts down 3000GP as well as crafting time to get the barding made. Elsewhere on this forum is a discussion of when the paladin should be able to get 1500GP together for their own plate mail. A warhorse with plate mail, summoned or not, would only be found among the very rich and the very high level. If you're using the optional encumbrance rules, the warhorse can carry 360 pounds without slowing down and 720 without experiencing disadvantage (taking into account 18 strength, large size, and an extra x2 for four legs which I do not remember is an actual rule in 5e). A paladin with all of their gear would be...almost 300 of that maybe...200 pounds for a beefy adult plus almost 100 pounds of gear? Adding on 260 pounds of heavy metal barding (which is the weight of plate mail barding) would definitely cause the horse to drop 10 feet of speed. That's acceptable I suppose for some knights/paladins/nobles/etc. Now, the mundane horse is trained to deal with that load but the summoned horse might also be able to say no to the paladin just like a humanoid friend might say no to heavy armor so that's a factor one could consider. When you get to pegasi and griffons and flying mounts you would have a really hard time convincing them to wear heavy armor.
What is more realistic is lighter barding. Leather barding and studded leather barding would make AC12 and AC13 respectively. Not too pricey, not too heavy, and not too hard to convince your horse friend to wear. I would strongly argue that an AC13 horse at mid-level play is not gamebreaking at all. Scale mail barding gives the horse an AC15 but that's getting a bit on the heavier side at 180 pounds (so it might cause for a slower mount) but perhaps not that gamebreaking still.
Back to the spell though. I get the argument against barding appearing on the summoned mount. I very much don't get the argument against the saddle at all though. I'd almost argue that the mount appears with saddle and horse gear and bright colored garments on the first cast: it is supposed to be the mount of a paladin. (I wouldn't even be surprised if the deity sends a mount with a brightly colored symbol on the horse's flank, MLP-style.) It's like a shiny new toy at the holidays but "batteries not included" so I guess you'll have to wait until you get back home.
I find nothing wrong with a paladin mount being summoned with gear as long as it is only mount gear. Do you realize how bulky and heavy a mounts gear actually is. Every single one of my DMs and when I DM have made the mount come with basic gear when it is summoned. If a player wanted to upgrade the barding they could but it was expensive and had to make sense. Plate armor on a flying creature does not make sense and has never been an issue.
Its like if you go into a town and the guardsmen gives you a mount to rush to the keep in its defense. The adventure module will only tell you they give you a mount and type but do not mention a saddle and all the other things mounts need. It would be stupid to think a guard will give you a mount without the gear to ride it. Summoning a mount is similar.
Going by RAW a player with 20 str can carry 300 pounds. A Rapier weighs 2 pounds. Should you allow a player to carry 150 rapiers? No because it does not make sense. Summoning a mount without basic riding equipment doesn't make sense either.
Look at paladins in the history of fantasy. Most of the time the mounts were sent by the Gods and it included their gear.
Paladins in the history of Fantasy is irrelevant. We are talking about Paladins in D&D.
First starting out a mount was gifted to a Paladin by your Order. It was never sent by a Diety. 5e changed that in a way by allowing a Paladin to have a permanent celestial, fiend, or fey mount at their becon call any where in the world even after its killed it can come right back. Also Paladin Mounts bypass how normal mounted combat can work because you can still be mounted on an uncontrolled mount that is still under your control because of the bond of the mount to the Paladin. The stipulation to this though is when they die or are dismissed all gear they were carrying does not go with them.
The nature of the spell is extremely different then you comparing it to a purchased mount. A Paladin mount is far superior than any purchased mount period. What you are proposing takes away the literal only downside to a Paladin mount for nothing more than share laziness of not wanting to deal with the gear issue.
Your entire RAW comparison is even further [REDACTED]. A STR 20 character is far beyond any skill of a normal person bordering on Demi-God status. While you have the str yo carry 150 Rapiers it's not saying you have 150 rapiers in one hand. It's more if you had 150 rapiers in a sac you could carry it. But that's implying you are butt ass naked because everything has weight.
So how about you stop trying to take the verbatim [REDACTED] way out of this because you dont want to purchase gear for a free mount or retrieve said gear when the mount disappears. This is [REDACTED] trying to make the find Steed spells entirely OP [REDACTED]
Notes: Please be respectful of your fellow community members.
Where did you get that a mount was gifted by your order? In the previous editions it was summoned from the celestial plan AND CAME WITH ALL ITS GEAR. You are trying to punish paladins because you think the feature is OP when it is not. Stop taking out your prejudice on a class feature.
I can not pull up the older editions but look at 3.5.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides.
This means it is summoned just like the 5th edition spell. No talk about an order giving them the mount.
The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed )including barding, saddle, saddlebags, and the like).
This is 5e though and it does not state in the spell description it comes with or with-out equipment. You are against that because you think it is OP but that is your OPINION. MY and all the DMS iv played with share the OPINION that it comes with gear. Until they make an official Errata and update the spell I am just as right as you are and IMO it makes more sense how I handle it.
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Notes: Please be respectful to your fellow community members.
Find Steed. The steed is meant to disappear the way it appeared: naked. The idea is that it would leave gear behind.
Let's further look at what Find Steed is.
You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed, creating a long-lasting bond with it.
So Its a SPIRIT. It's not an actual Warhorse that just resides in Celestia like in 3.5. But I'll get back to 3.5 in a second.
Furthermore Find Steed says this: When the steed drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. You can also dismiss your steed at any time as an action, causing it to disappear.
It does not say the spirit disappears with everything it had.
But let's look at 3.5 and what you omitted from your post
Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Huh it looks like there was even harsher penalties to Paladins back then.
Let's look at 3e:
Special Mount: Upon or after reaching 5th level, a paladin can call an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve him or her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium-size paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin). Should the paladin's mount die, another cannot be called for a year and a day. The new mount has all the accumulated abilities due a mount of the paladin's level. The DM will provide information about the mount that responds to the paladin's call. Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.
Hmmm no mention of it being from a God or that it automatically appears next to you.
But hey let's dismiss what the RAI is, that these mounts were heavily restricted in past editions on their deaths, etc. Like I said this entire notion is [REDACTED] you are nitpicking desired effects [REDACTED].
Notes: Please be respectful to your fellow community members.
First Jeremy Crawford sage advice is not RAW and was never meant to be. If it was it would have been added to the Sage Advice compendium. The spell has been out for nearly 5 years and it has never been added and thus should not be consider RAW.
There is no mention that a paladin order gave it to the paladin either. We are splitting hairs but you are taking things as fact when it is not fact but your opinion.
I can post a few other Jeremy Crawford advice that ended up being Errata to something completely different. That is why it is not RAW and should not be taken as such. A good interpretation but not RAW.
We can agree to disagree but you are the one with the attitude and I just responded with the same.
The old Paladin mounts of past editions had penalties but they also got perks that todays mounts do not. I think they did a good job on 5e mounts.
Today's mounts don get perks because it is summoned at the whim due to a spell slot. It costs nothing and has no penalty to death. It's only penalty is its gear is dropped.
Really [REDACTED] then point out where in RAW it states gear disappears with it? It states you summon the spirit and that when the spirit dies or is Dismissed it disappears. It does not say like past editions that gear goes with it if its dismissed.
I also never said Safe advise was RAW I said RAI [REDACTED]. Furthermore it is your place to make the case RAW supports what you say. It does not. If it did it would say so as WoTC has set precedence in the past of saying such.
Splitting hairs really? In 3e it was a Horse you got nothing more. It was a better horse because it lvled up. It was not a horse that was given to you by a god or that resided in celestia. Also you couldnt summon it at the whim.
You mistake me saying something is idiotic as an attitude. It is not it is a description. You are the one that came in swinging accusations that are proven wrong by simple searches that negate that past iterations had restrictions. As I stated multiple times the entire thing put forth by the OP is [REDACTED] because there is absolutely no consequences what so ever. Instead he nitpicks past edition things he likes and adds them to 5e with out factoring in past edition limitations and dismissing 5e limitations. That is why it is [REDACTED].
Notes: Please be respectful of your fellow community members.
Antesse in response to your last question that I did not see because of Madangrys responses. This is because saddles are equipment in 5e and have rules and benefits that govern them.
Just search saddles in D&D Beyond and you'll see what I'm talking about.
So no a Paladin Steed does not come with items or maintains them. If you wanted to make your alternate rules closer to 3.5 as it appears take all of 3.5s rules governing the Paladin Mount or keep the ones that are 5e rules. Mismatching them will unbalance the spell.
Which is his interpretation and you as a DM can do whatever you want. As a player ask the DM and let him decide. Do not take an armchair warrior opinion on something.
While I do accept that by RAW the steed appears with nothing and disappears leaving behind everything, I'm not really concerned with RAW (or RAI) because I'm proposing three changes to the spell(s) that would be house rules/errata.
Yes it would make the spell a little more powerful because saddle and barding could stay with the mount. However, I'm also proposing a rule making it less powerful: requiring the spell to be prepared as one of the 1/2 level + CHA. Balanced? Maybe not.
Oh I completely understand what you are proposing. Its madangry that appears to not be thinking this is a discussion on RAW. Even if he doesnt he has still to be able to state how RAW supports having gear. Now hes at opinion. It's not opinion dude its supported by both RAW and RAI. Opinion wouldn't be supported by either let alone both.
I dont think that would be balanced at all. The Majority of Paladins always have find Steed prepared. Simply because its brings vary great bonuses especially if your character is set up for mounted combat.
Like I stated though the best thing to do to balance the spell out as you intend would be to fully adopt how 3.5 handles it. You can summon the mount at any time with any of the gear you had on it. However if it dies you take a -1 to attack and damage rolls and have to wait 30 days to get it back. While harsh this is a balance to having a walking teleporting gear sachel at the whim.
Hi guys! Please ensure that when entering into discussions with your fellow community members that you each treat one another with respect. Differing opinions are important and these discussions can be very fruitful, but we need to ensure that we're dissecting and debating the ideas present, and not one another. Thanks all!
1. I think having the spell scale by CR is a good start point. Maybe add in condition where you can only get beasts. That way find greater steed is still relevant for unlocking more powerful magical creatures.
2. I don't understand the issue here? From want I've read of the spell it doesn't say you need to have it prepared. Instead I read this as find familiar, where once the spell is casts you don't need to keep it ready to use all of its functions. Correct me if I'm wrong...
3. Kinda got to agree with khaldo here; summons shouldn't be able to keep things they didn't come in with. That said, if the beast has equipment in its stat block I see no reason not to play as is. If you want a way to upgrade the steed, I think the fact it's actually a spirit that can change shape means that adding scalling to the spell should solve that issue.
With the majority of standard settings being in dungeons, majority of mounts will have a hard time getting a lot of use.
I've played a Paladin with a mount for quite some time and never found it must of an issue nor did the DM have any issue working with it. Eventually, he just started targeting the mount when I didn't have the Mounted Combatant Feat.
Like Nutronic mentioned, the spell functions in the same vein as Find Familiar. This isn't a creature that normally has this form; it's a spirit be it Celestial, Fey or Infernal that has taken a form of a mountable creature. How much your DM wants to play with that is up to them. The Creature is, however, bounded to their summoner as per the spell written. It does not take gear with them if they were to disappear for one reason or another, so hauling gear back is going to be required if the party can't wait a Long Rest +10 minutes.
Where the question of functionality depends on the DM. Is this the mount acting Independently or does it only act by it's rider. For my group, the DM ruled that while mounted, we operated by my turn economy and dismounted, we had independent economies. Learned how that works in my favor still when, after a monster dismounted me, I got an easy kill after Trampling and Adv Bashing it.
if the Mount is Independent, it's effectively summoning a low CR creature that doesn't vanish over time. You get to make use of the full action of the Mount along with the Full Action of the Rider. If the mount is not Independent, then the Rider just gets a boost to Mobility and access to certain feats and weapons. Plus someone to talk to in their head.
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Hello, Paladin fans! I have been looking at everything Paladin recently and there are a few things different that I would do with the Find Steed spell. Let me know what you think about these changes and rules.
1. Rather than having Find Steed and Find Greater Steed, you have one spell that can be upcast. With a 2nd level slot, it acts as Find Steed. With a 4th level slot, it acts as Find Greater Steed. With a 3rd or 5th level slot, it could have a different list of mount options (CR1 and CR3 respectively) if that doesn't seem too powerful. For these alternate lists, there could be better versions of the common warhorse for Paladins to have a mount that "levels" up.
2. In order to take advantage of the benefits of the Find Steed spell, you must have the spell prepared. Perhaps the steed stays around but when you don't have the spell prepared you don't have spell sharing and telepathy and so forth and the steed is just an intelligent animal? It seems really odd to me that you can prepare the spell, cast it, then wake up the next morning and prepare new spells and you just have a permanent ally with no investment of a prepared spell (you already don't have the investment of the spell slot). It's minor but that way you are focusing some magic focus on connecting to your steed which makes sense. (And yes, I'd have the same rule for other permanent allies such as Find Familiar).
3. Rather than the steed appearing with nothing and the steed leaving behind everything when it is dismissed or reduced to zero, you would have the steed appear with the gear it "owns" and disappear with the gear it "owns". RAW the steed appears with no saddle, no barding, no blankets, no saddlebags, no ten days of horse feed, no colored heraldry for the paladin, nothing. And if you do put all of this on the steed and then dismiss it or have it reduced to zero, it leaves behind a pile of stuff which the paladin now needs to drag along or abandon. I get the need to avoid using the spell as a extradimensional storage facility or way to hide things in another plane when you summon and dismiss the steed. What I am proposing is the steed has the items that the paladin gifts to it, appears with those items, and disappears with those items. The items must be things that the steed uses or wants (as part of their job as a steed) such as saddles, barding, heraldry, etc. No random bags of treasure or extra weapons, only things specifically for the steed. Once given, they cannot be demanded back...but the steed could in theory give them back in instances of upgrades or maintenance. Basically, this means the steed is ready to go once summoned and the paladin is not left with a pile of steed stuff when the steed disappears.
3a. As an optional rule, perhaps the steed can be gifted treasure which disappears with it which the steed could hoard or use for their own purposes (horse bars in heaven?)...but it could be a way for the steed to replace and upgrade its own equipment. Give it enough gold and next time it returns it could have barding made in celestial forges. Or a new saddle after the old one is destroyed. Or bags of horse feed refilled. Or whatever.
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Instead of having a permanent ally that you summon that can be killed very easily you want a semi permanent ally that retain all gear it recieves? This is almost as stupid as a homebrew wyvern mount I saw on this site that cant be killed and when unconscious still follows you around.
If you think it's idiotic then fair enough and don't take these suggested rules. I was hoping for a little more helpful discourse. But I'll work with what I've got.
You seem to bring up two points. I don't see you refuting my first idea of having one spell that is upcast.
You mention that my idea makes for a semi-permanent ally instead of a permanent ally. I assume this is because you'd have to keep the spell prepared under rule 2 above. Without that rule it just seems like more of a class feature and literally every paladin (because every paladin has access to the spell) would just summon a mount one day during time off and just have it. You could even just call it a class feature and let them summon it at will and the only thing that would change is freeing up a spell slot. I don't really get what your complaint is with semi-permanent.
Your other contention is with retaining gear. Here's my second angle on the topic. A horse purchased/rented in town is generally purchased/rented with a saddle and other basic horse needs. For knights and nobles, there is usually some sort of colors or coat-of-arms or heraldry that one would put on their horse. If that purchased horse dies or is returned or sold, generally the saddle might be left with the horse. A horse without a saddle would be hard to ride in combat and probably not good to ride long distances (exception for druids?). And so, to make the game simpler, horses just have saddles when purchased/rented/found. RAW the Find Steed spell summons a naked horse. And so, when summoning while away from a city (locked in tower, shipwrecked, kidnapped in the night, more than a mile away across town, etc) summoning the horse gives you an "unridable" horse. The horse also lacks any heraldry/symbols/etc that the paladin might want to have which seems like something important maybe. I get not having barding appear but that's just a few points of AC to leave the horse less vulnerable and make it more viable for higher levels.
In short, if I were a paladin I would want my summoned steed to walk out of the mists/circle/sky/etc like this:
http://www.suitability.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/Heather Andreini photo 2.jpg
That seems much more paladin-y than a naked "wild" horse.
First Find Greater Steed is essentially an up cast of Find Steed. You get better mounts than Find Steed does.
Second the reason for Find Steed harkins back to past editions where Paladins got Mounts for free. Again The Mount dies fairly fast and requires you to have to recast it to get the mount back.
Third this is a summoned creature. Summoned creatures dont come with gear. How you state this is idiotic as it gives you a free storage of gear as long as it's on your mount. On a terms of spell power this now makes this spell OP. As now you can have a Steed show up that is n intelligent mount loyal to you and does what you say that can now have an 18 AC if it had plate etc. Its ridiculous. If you want to summon the Steed and have gear on it if it dies you have to recover your gear. It's the cost of using the most powerful mounts in the game as you never have to make animal handling checks, the DM never has control of what your mount does, etc.
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Now if you wanted to have a different creature as a mount and made its stats with in reason of the creatures you can get that's completely understandable as it's just flavor at that point.
With what ou propose you're making the spell entirely two powerful for a 2nd level spell slot At no real cost what so ever.
Just as a point of correction, many summoned creatures do come with gear. It depends on the stat block. For example, when the druid summons a group of satyrs, they appear with sword, bow, and leather armor because that's in their stat block.
Technically the warhorse entry does have a sidebar for a variant warhorse with barding and that barding does not alter challenge rating. But yeah, I understand your concern about having a plate mail warhorse.
This would only be if the paladin puts down 3000GP as well as crafting time to get the barding made. Elsewhere on this forum is a discussion of when the paladin should be able to get 1500GP together for their own plate mail. A warhorse with plate mail, summoned or not, would only be found among the very rich and the very high level. If you're using the optional encumbrance rules, the warhorse can carry 360 pounds without slowing down and 720 without experiencing disadvantage (taking into account 18 strength, large size, and an extra x2 for four legs which I do not remember is an actual rule in 5e). A paladin with all of their gear would be...almost 300 of that maybe...200 pounds for a beefy adult plus almost 100 pounds of gear? Adding on 260 pounds of heavy metal barding (which is the weight of plate mail barding) would definitely cause the horse to drop 10 feet of speed. That's acceptable I suppose for some knights/paladins/nobles/etc. Now, the mundane horse is trained to deal with that load but the summoned horse might also be able to say no to the paladin just like a humanoid friend might say no to heavy armor so that's a factor one could consider. When you get to pegasi and griffons and flying mounts you would have a really hard time convincing them to wear heavy armor.
What is more realistic is lighter barding. Leather barding and studded leather barding would make AC12 and AC13 respectively. Not too pricey, not too heavy, and not too hard to convince your horse friend to wear. I would strongly argue that an AC13 horse at mid-level play is not gamebreaking at all. Scale mail barding gives the horse an AC15 but that's getting a bit on the heavier side at 180 pounds (so it might cause for a slower mount) but perhaps not that gamebreaking still.
Back to the spell though. I get the argument against barding appearing on the summoned mount. I very much don't get the argument against the saddle at all though. I'd almost argue that the mount appears with saddle and horse gear and bright colored garments on the first cast: it is supposed to be the mount of a paladin. (I wouldn't even be surprised if the deity sends a mount with a brightly colored symbol on the horse's flank, MLP-style.) It's like a shiny new toy at the holidays but "batteries not included" so I guess you'll have to wait until you get back home.
I find nothing wrong with a paladin mount being summoned with gear as long as it is only mount gear. Do you realize how bulky and heavy a mounts gear actually is. Every single one of my DMs and when I DM have made the mount come with basic gear when it is summoned. If a player wanted to upgrade the barding they could but it was expensive and had to make sense. Plate armor on a flying creature does not make sense and has never been an issue.
Its like if you go into a town and the guardsmen gives you a mount to rush to the keep in its defense. The adventure module will only tell you they give you a mount and type but do not mention a saddle and all the other things mounts need. It would be stupid to think a guard will give you a mount without the gear to ride it. Summoning a mount is similar.
Going by RAW a player with 20 str can carry 300 pounds. A Rapier weighs 2 pounds. Should you allow a player to carry 150 rapiers? No because it does not make sense. Summoning a mount without basic riding equipment doesn't make sense either.
Look at paladins in the history of fantasy. Most of the time the mounts were sent by the Gods and it included their gear.
Paladins in the history of Fantasy is irrelevant. We are talking about Paladins in D&D.
First starting out a mount was gifted to a Paladin by your Order. It was never sent by a Diety. 5e changed that in a way by allowing a Paladin to have a permanent celestial, fiend, or fey mount at their becon call any where in the world even after its killed it can come right back. Also Paladin Mounts bypass how normal mounted combat can work because you can still be mounted on an uncontrolled mount that is still under your control because of the bond of the mount to the Paladin. The stipulation to this though is when they die or are dismissed all gear they were carrying does not go with them.
The nature of the spell is extremely different then you comparing it to a purchased mount. A Paladin mount is far superior than any purchased mount period. What you are proposing takes away the literal only downside to a Paladin mount for nothing more than share laziness of not wanting to deal with the gear issue.
Your entire RAW comparison is even further [REDACTED]. A STR 20 character is far beyond any skill of a normal person bordering on Demi-God status. While you have the str yo carry 150 Rapiers it's not saying you have 150 rapiers in one hand. It's more if you had 150 rapiers in a sac you could carry it. But that's implying you are butt ass naked because everything has weight.
So how about you stop trying to take the verbatim [REDACTED] way out of this because you dont want to purchase gear for a free mount or retrieve said gear when the mount disappears. This is [REDACTED] trying to make the find Steed spells entirely OP [REDACTED]
Where did you get that a mount was gifted by your order? In the previous editions it was summoned from the celestial plan AND CAME WITH ALL ITS GEAR. You are trying to punish paladins because you think the feature is OP when it is not. Stop taking out your prejudice on a class feature.
I can not pull up the older editions but look at 3.5.
This means it is summoned just like the 5th edition spell. No talk about an order giving them the mount.
This is 5e though and it does not state in the spell description it comes with or with-out equipment. You are against that because you think it is OP but that is your OPINION. MY and all the DMS iv played with share the OPINION that it comes with gear. Until they make an official Errata and update the spell I am just as right as you are and IMO it makes more sense how I handle it.
[REDACTED]
Let's continue this [REDACTED] charade then shall we. Because [REDACTED] you say this is my opinion. It is not Madangry.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/05/13/party-wanted-to-attach-a-chest-to-paladins-horse-then-dismiss-mount-to-hide-item-possible/
Wait what does Jeremy Crawford say?
Find Steed. The steed is meant to disappear the way it appeared: naked. The idea is that it would leave gear behind.
Let's further look at what Find Steed is.
You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed, creating a long-lasting bond with it.
So Its a SPIRIT. It's not an actual Warhorse that just resides in Celestia like in 3.5. But I'll get back to 3.5 in a second.
Furthermore Find Steed says this: When the steed drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. You can also dismiss your steed at any time as an action, causing it to disappear.
It does not say the spirit disappears with everything it had.
But let's look at 3.5 and what you omitted from your post
Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.
Huh it looks like there was even harsher penalties to Paladins back then.
Let's look at 3e:
Special Mount: Upon or after reaching 5th level, a paladin can call an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve him or her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium-size paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin). Should the paladin's mount die, another cannot be called for a year and a day. The new mount has all the accumulated abilities due a mount of the paladin's level. The DM will provide information about the mount that responds to the paladin's call. Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.
Hmmm no mention of it being from a God or that it automatically appears next to you.
But hey let's dismiss what the RAI is, that these mounts were heavily restricted in past editions on their deaths, etc. Like I said this entire notion is [REDACTED] you are nitpicking desired effects [REDACTED].
First Jeremy Crawford sage advice is not RAW and was never meant to be. If it was it would have been added to the Sage Advice compendium. The spell has been out for nearly 5 years and it has never been added and thus should not be consider RAW.
There is no mention that a paladin order gave it to the paladin either. We are splitting hairs but you are taking things as fact when it is not fact but your opinion.
I can post a few other Jeremy Crawford advice that ended up being Errata to something completely different. That is why it is not RAW and should not be taken as such. A good interpretation but not RAW.
We can agree to disagree but you are the one with the attitude and I just responded with the same.
The old Paladin mounts of past editions had penalties but they also got perks that todays mounts do not. I think they did a good job on 5e mounts.
Today's mounts don get perks because it is summoned at the whim due to a spell slot. It costs nothing and has no penalty to death. It's only penalty is its gear is dropped.
Really [REDACTED] then point out where in RAW it states gear disappears with it? It states you summon the spirit and that when the spirit dies or is Dismissed it disappears. It does not say like past editions that gear goes with it if its dismissed.
I also never said Safe advise was RAW I said RAI [REDACTED]. Furthermore it is your place to make the case RAW supports what you say. It does not. If it did it would say so as WoTC has set precedence in the past of saying such.
Splitting hairs really? In 3e it was a Horse you got nothing more. It was a better horse because it lvled up. It was not a horse that was given to you by a god or that resided in celestia. Also you couldnt summon it at the whim.
You mistake me saying something is idiotic as an attitude. It is not it is a description. You are the one that came in swinging accusations that are proven wrong by simple searches that negate that past iterations had restrictions. As I stated multiple times the entire thing put forth by the OP is [REDACTED] because there is absolutely no consequences what so ever. Instead he nitpicks past edition things he likes and adds them to 5e with out factoring in past edition limitations and dismissing 5e limitations. That is why it is [REDACTED].
Antesse in response to your last question that I did not see because of Madangrys responses. This is because saddles are equipment in 5e and have rules and benefits that govern them.
Just search saddles in D&D Beyond and you'll see what I'm talking about.
So no a Paladin Steed does not come with items or maintains them. If you wanted to make your alternate rules closer to 3.5 as it appears take all of 3.5s rules governing the Paladin Mount or keep the ones that are 5e rules. Mismatching them will unbalance the spell.
Which is his interpretation and you as a DM can do whatever you want. As a player ask the DM and let him decide. Do not take an armchair warrior opinion on something.
While I do accept that by RAW the steed appears with nothing and disappears leaving behind everything, I'm not really concerned with RAW (or RAI) because I'm proposing three changes to the spell(s) that would be house rules/errata.
Yes it would make the spell a little more powerful because saddle and barding could stay with the mount. However, I'm also proposing a rule making it less powerful: requiring the spell to be prepared as one of the 1/2 level + CHA. Balanced? Maybe not.
Oh I completely understand what you are proposing. Its madangry that appears to not be thinking this is a discussion on RAW. Even if he doesnt he has still to be able to state how RAW supports having gear. Now hes at opinion. It's not opinion dude its supported by both RAW and RAI. Opinion wouldn't be supported by either let alone both.
I dont think that would be balanced at all. The Majority of Paladins always have find Steed prepared. Simply because its brings vary great bonuses especially if your character is set up for mounted combat.
Like I stated though the best thing to do to balance the spell out as you intend would be to fully adopt how 3.5 handles it. You can summon the mount at any time with any of the gear you had on it. However if it dies you take a -1 to attack and damage rolls and have to wait 30 days to get it back. While harsh this is a balance to having a walking teleporting gear sachel at the whim.
Hi guys! Please ensure that when entering into discussions with your fellow community members that you each treat one another with respect. Differing opinions are important and these discussions can be very fruitful, but we need to ensure that we're dissecting and debating the ideas present, and not one another. Thanks all!
I think this is an interesting topic.
1. I think having the spell scale by CR is a good start point. Maybe add in condition where you can only get beasts. That way find greater steed is still relevant for unlocking more powerful magical creatures.
2. I don't understand the issue here? From want I've read of the spell it doesn't say you need to have it prepared. Instead I read this as find familiar, where once the spell is casts you don't need to keep it ready to use all of its functions. Correct me if I'm wrong...
3. Kinda got to agree with khaldo here; summons shouldn't be able to keep things they didn't come in with. That said, if the beast has equipment in its stat block I see no reason not to play as is. If you want a way to upgrade the steed, I think the fact it's actually a spirit that can change shape means that adding scalling to the spell should solve that issue.
With the majority of standard settings being in dungeons, majority of mounts will have a hard time getting a lot of use.
I've played a Paladin with a mount for quite some time and never found it must of an issue nor did the DM have any issue working with it. Eventually, he just started targeting the mount when I didn't have the Mounted Combatant Feat.
Like Nutronic mentioned, the spell functions in the same vein as Find Familiar. This isn't a creature that normally has this form; it's a spirit be it Celestial, Fey or Infernal that has taken a form of a mountable creature. How much your DM wants to play with that is up to them. The Creature is, however, bounded to their summoner as per the spell written. It does not take gear with them if they were to disappear for one reason or another, so hauling gear back is going to be required if the party can't wait a Long Rest +10 minutes.
Where the question of functionality depends on the DM. Is this the mount acting Independently or does it only act by it's rider. For my group, the DM ruled that while mounted, we operated by my turn economy and dismounted, we had independent economies. Learned how that works in my favor still when, after a monster dismounted me, I got an easy kill after Trampling and Adv Bashing it.
if the Mount is Independent, it's effectively summoning a low CR creature that doesn't vanish over time. You get to make use of the full action of the Mount along with the Full Action of the Rider. If the mount is not Independent, then the Rider just gets a boost to Mobility and access to certain feats and weapons. Plus someone to talk to in their head.