So in a game Im part of we are about to start The Mad Mage and the DM is letting us either rebuild our characters or bring in new. So I'm thinking of building another gloom stalker and doing some lite multiclassing. I've seen the various builds out there and for the life of me I can't understand why crossbow expert? Oh we are starting out at lvl 6 and I was thinking of doing a straight 50/50 split but it seems like I would be giving up too much if I did that. So im thinking of going gloom 5/rogue1 and going Assassin as soon as I can. What would hive mind recommend?
Why crossbow expert: A hand crossbow does 1d6+dex so for now lets assume a 16/17 dex vs a different build that gets to 18 and handles hunter's mark. If you go variant human you can have both CBX and 18 dex at 4th level, but we are going to ignore that now. (to hit calculated with archery fighting style) 6th level Hand crossbow 1d6+3 for 3 attacks and uses no resources (spells) for AC 13 = 16.1 damage, AC 16 = 13.2, AC19 = 10.3 6th level longbow 1d8+4 for 2 attacks using no resources for AC 13 = 15.0, AC 16 = 12.4, AC 19 = 9.9 Now this neglects the possible disadvantage from firing in melee on the longbow that is overcome by the crossbow expert and depending on playstyle/DM that may or may not be important. But functionally you are using your bonus action to get about 1 more point of damage per turn. The gap is about 3 points on the variant human build that gets to Dex 18 at 4th level.
Personally, I prefer to leave my bonus action open. Hunter's mark is the obvious choice and many rangers have bonus action abilities and spells that get clogged when you use crossbow expert. More critically on a Rogue/Ranger build is that crossbow expert clogs up your bonus action for cunning action. That cunning action can get you advantage via steady aim or remove you from melee with disengage to prevent disadvantage.
Multiclass split: You definitely want to start 5/1. Extra attack is extremely powerful but equally as important to the ranger is the boost in spell casting at 5th level. At 4th level you have 3 1st level slots and at 5th you have 4 1st and 2 2nd. You also get 1 more spells known and another from your subclass. So two more spells known and doubling your spell slots plus extra attack is better than getting cunning action. Now I like getting 2nd level rogue at 7 for a 5/2 split in particular if you don't go crossbow expert.
Subclass choice for rogue: I like assassin but might also consider Phantom for damage boost/skills improvement or Scout for really great skills.
Why crossbow expert: A hand crossbow does 1d6+dex so for now lets assume a 16/17 dex vs a different build that gets to 18 and handles hunter's mark. If you go variant human you can have both CBX and 18 dex at 4th level, but we are going to ignore that now. (to hit calculated with archery fighting style) 6th level Hand crossbow 1d6+3 for 3 attacks and uses no resources (spells) for AC 13 = 16.1 damage, AC 16 = 13.2, AC19 = 10.3 6th level longbow 1d8+4 for 2 attacks using no resources for AC 13 = 15.0, AC 16 = 12.4, AC 19 = 9.9 Now this neglects the possible disadvantage from firing in melee on the longbow that is overcome by the crossbow expert and depending on playstyle/DM that may or may not be important. But functionally you are using your bonus action to get about 1 more point of damage per turn. The gap is about 3 points on the variant human build that gets to Dex 18 at 4th level.
If you get crossbow expert wouldn't you get sharpshooter sooner or later and once you do how does that affect the numbers?
I am not a fan of Crossbow Expert on a Ranger. I am not really a fan on any class, but I like it better on a Rogue or Fighter than a Ranger.
You do more damage with crossbow expert due to the extra attack you get as a bonus action. If you take sharpshooter as well you eliminate cover and do even more damage on top of that, although now you are talking about a second feat. You can also use a crossbow in melee without disadvantage, although you don't get an opportunity attack while holding one.
Things I do not like about XBE on a Ranger:
1. A Ranger has spells and if you are not using them you are not making the most of the class IMO. Some of their spells are action spells and some are bonus action spells but in either case, every time you cast a spell in combat you are losing a major component that you spent a feat on.
2. It ties you to a hand crossbow (and if you are using another crossbow other than a hand crossbow it is not worth it).
3. Compared to an ASI you have a lower attack roll, lower base damage, a lower dexterity save, lower dexterity checks and possibly a lower AC.
4. The extra damage is underwhelming. A Longbow in tier 2 is going to be doing 10-24 base damage with an ASI and using point buy. A hand crossbow is going to do 12-27, however you hit less often and you need to use your bonus action. Against AC 15 with Archery you are talking about 13 damage with a Longbow and an 18 dex or 14 with a hand crossbow and XBE and 16 Dex.
5. The Range is inferior to other missile weapons. The 30 foot short range on a hand crossbow is going to come into play often in most campaigns. while you are gaining the ability to be in melee without disadvantage, compared to a Longbow you are losing the ability to shoot at longer ranges without disadvantage. As primarily a ranged warrior I think having a decent short range is more important than being able to be without disadvantage in melee.
At the end of the day, is it worth using your bonus action, having lower skill checks, lower saves and maybe a lower AC to get 1 more point of damage and be able to use it in melee without disadvantage? Not usually IMO.
If you get crossbow expert wouldn't you get sharpshooter sooner or later and once you do how does that affect the numbers?
I would get sharpshooter first. It will greatly improve the numbers in play, mostly because there will be no disadvantage for using a hand crossbow at long range. You also ignore cover, which will again have a huge effect.
Sharpshooter adds significant damage to the XBow Expert. Getting a third shot at it makes it pull ahead and synergizes well with archery fighting style. But to me taking those two feats really requires going variant human/custom lineage to get a free feat at level one. Without that free feat you end up having a 16 dex at 11th level and that doesn't feel so good with sharpshooter's -5 penalty. Even when the math comes out ahead it still feels bad.
With the ability to be invisible in the dark the gloomstalker has some extra ways to get advantage which can offset the sharpshooter penalty. Once you have steady aim from rogue you have even more ways to gain advantage. I would generally encourage taking sharpshooter before and instead of Xbow Expert. Its a better source of damage and the ability to overcome cover is better than the ability to fire in melee.
Note: I am biased against variant human and custom lineage. Its boring. We have a 128 color crayon box of species in 5e so lets not just use grey.
Once you have steady aim from rogue you have even more ways to gain advantage.
But Steady Aim is a replacement feature for 3rd lvl. So if I or you go into a subclass it replaces what I or you would get from the sub class since there is nothing else to pick up at that lvl. So wouldn't it be less than a good thing if you were going down the assassin sub but never got assassinate, which leads to the high potential damage output?
Once you have steady aim from rogue you have even more ways to gain advantage.
But Steady Aim is a replacement feature for 3rd lvl. So if I or you go into a subclass it replaces what I or you would get from the sub class since there is nothing else to pick up at that lvl. So wouldn't it be less than a good thing if you were going down the assassin sub but never got assassinate, which leads to the high potential damage output?
Steady Aim is an optional feature from Tasha's, but it is not a replacement feature. All Rogues get steady aim (if you are playing with it) in addition to whatever subclass ability they get.
Yeah I found that after typing that out and then seeing my book close at hand. I feel like I crit failed a perception check So what race do you think would be the most fun to run this build on if I didn't choose variant human or custom linage?
So for non var human/custom lineage races. Just a note with gloom stalker rogue you are playing an A+ multiclass combo you can really do whatever you want.
Generally with a gloom stalker/archer we are looking for a racial option that provide some fun dark edge with mechanics that help our Ranger/rogue skills and archery.
Flyers - If your dm lets you play something that flys then do it. Owlin would be my favorite. Gets you the stealth skill. The ability to fly on an archer is mostly broken.
Races with spells/spell like features - Hexblood, Duergar, Shadar-kai, Githzerai, Githyanki are all good. Any of the Genasi. Rangers are very limited on spells so getting 1 or 2 more spells known can be really useful. The githzerai gettign shield spell is really strong. I would probably go with either air genasi or shadar-kai.
More blood for the blood god - You might be the kind of person who wants to do more damage. Bugbear add 2d6 on attacks if the enemy hasn't gone yet. And they get stealth skill.
Some other underrated choices are Lizardfolk for a better AC, more skills, and the ability to just bite a dude with a bonus action. Dhampire for more skills, biting dudes, and walking on the ceiling
My personal experience with playing two ranger/rogues, one I've played for over a year and she's 15th level. I have a 8th level one in dungeon of mad mage now (both drow)
Gloomstalker/scout is in my opinion better than assassin. I'm just not impressed with a once a combat at most ability. I use nature and survival expertise all the time for tracking and monster part harvesting etc and knowledge checks. The reaction skirmisher move away is awesome for survivability, eventual 10' more movement and the 13th level feature is great too, especially with gloom stalker 5 giving you 3 attacks first round (with sharpshooter...) add 2 levels fighter and action surge at highest levels for 5 at advantage shots first round.
I use a longbow. There may be math reasons crossbow expert wins out but I think its just dumb to think a character is whipping out a hand crossbow on bonus actions
Rogues already have awesome things to do with bonus actions. You want to be super mobile and to hide or disengage. Mobility is key to your effectiveness (figure out how to fly. I use a broom. If you are allowed to start with one uncommon magic item I cant suggest a broom any stronger)
Personally I start 1 rogue then go 5 ranger, then back rogue forever or two levels of fighter at some point.
So in a game Im part of we are about to start The Mad Mage and the DM is letting us either rebuild our characters or bring in new. So I'm thinking of building another gloom stalker and doing some lite multiclassing. I've seen the various builds out there and for the life of me I can't understand why crossbow expert? Oh we are starting out at lvl 6 and I was thinking of doing a straight 50/50 split but it seems like I would be giving up too much if I did that. So im thinking of going gloom 5/rogue1 and going Assassin as soon as I can. What would hive mind recommend?
Why crossbow expert:
A hand crossbow does 1d6+dex so for now lets assume a 16/17 dex vs a different build that gets to 18 and handles hunter's mark. If you go variant human you can have both CBX and 18 dex at 4th level, but we are going to ignore that now. (to hit calculated with archery fighting style)
6th level Hand crossbow 1d6+3 for 3 attacks and uses no resources (spells) for AC 13 = 16.1 damage, AC 16 = 13.2, AC19 = 10.3
6th level longbow 1d8+4 for 2 attacks using no resources for AC 13 = 15.0, AC 16 = 12.4, AC 19 = 9.9
Now this neglects the possible disadvantage from firing in melee on the longbow that is overcome by the crossbow expert and depending on playstyle/DM that may or may not be important. But functionally you are using your bonus action to get about 1 more point of damage per turn. The gap is about 3 points on the variant human build that gets to Dex 18 at 4th level.
Personally, I prefer to leave my bonus action open. Hunter's mark is the obvious choice and many rangers have bonus action abilities and spells that get clogged when you use crossbow expert. More critically on a Rogue/Ranger build is that crossbow expert clogs up your bonus action for cunning action. That cunning action can get you advantage via steady aim or remove you from melee with disengage to prevent disadvantage.
Multiclass split:
You definitely want to start 5/1. Extra attack is extremely powerful but equally as important to the ranger is the boost in spell casting at 5th level. At 4th level you have 3 1st level slots and at 5th you have 4 1st and 2 2nd. You also get 1 more spells known and another from your subclass. So two more spells known and doubling your spell slots plus extra attack is better than getting cunning action. Now I like getting 2nd level rogue at 7 for a 5/2 split in particular if you don't go crossbow expert.
Subclass choice for rogue:
I like assassin but might also consider Phantom for damage boost/skills improvement or Scout for really great skills.
If you get crossbow expert wouldn't you get sharpshooter sooner or later and once you do how does that affect the numbers?
I am not a fan of Crossbow Expert on a Ranger. I am not really a fan on any class, but I like it better on a Rogue or Fighter than a Ranger.
You do more damage with crossbow expert due to the extra attack you get as a bonus action. If you take sharpshooter as well you eliminate cover and do even more damage on top of that, although now you are talking about a second feat. You can also use a crossbow in melee without disadvantage, although you don't get an opportunity attack while holding one.
Things I do not like about XBE on a Ranger:
1. A Ranger has spells and if you are not using them you are not making the most of the class IMO. Some of their spells are action spells and some are bonus action spells but in either case, every time you cast a spell in combat you are losing a major component that you spent a feat on.
2. It ties you to a hand crossbow (and if you are using another crossbow other than a hand crossbow it is not worth it).
3. Compared to an ASI you have a lower attack roll, lower base damage, a lower dexterity save, lower dexterity checks and possibly a lower AC.
4. The extra damage is underwhelming. A Longbow in tier 2 is going to be doing 10-24 base damage with an ASI and using point buy. A hand crossbow is going to do 12-27, however you hit less often and you need to use your bonus action. Against AC 15 with Archery you are talking about 13 damage with a Longbow and an 18 dex or 14 with a hand crossbow and XBE and 16 Dex.
5. The Range is inferior to other missile weapons. The 30 foot short range on a hand crossbow is going to come into play often in most campaigns. while you are gaining the ability to be in melee without disadvantage, compared to a Longbow you are losing the ability to shoot at longer ranges without disadvantage. As primarily a ranged warrior I think having a decent short range is more important than being able to be without disadvantage in melee.
At the end of the day, is it worth using your bonus action, having lower skill checks, lower saves and maybe a lower AC to get 1 more point of damage and be able to use it in melee without disadvantage? Not usually IMO.
I would get sharpshooter first. It will greatly improve the numbers in play, mostly because there will be no disadvantage for using a hand crossbow at long range. You also ignore cover, which will again have a huge effect.
Of the two feats, this is the better one IMO.
Sharpshooter adds significant damage to the XBow Expert. Getting a third shot at it makes it pull ahead and synergizes well with archery fighting style. But to me taking those two feats really requires going variant human/custom lineage to get a free feat at level one. Without that free feat you end up having a 16 dex at 11th level and that doesn't feel so good with sharpshooter's -5 penalty. Even when the math comes out ahead it still feels bad.
With the ability to be invisible in the dark the gloomstalker has some extra ways to get advantage which can offset the sharpshooter penalty. Once you have steady aim from rogue you have even more ways to gain advantage. I would generally encourage taking sharpshooter before and instead of Xbow Expert. Its a better source of damage and the ability to overcome cover is better than the ability to fire in melee.
Note: I am biased against variant human and custom lineage. Its boring. We have a 128 color crayon box of species in 5e so lets not just use grey.
But Steady Aim is a replacement feature for 3rd lvl. So if I or you go into a subclass it replaces what I or you would get from the sub class since there is nothing else to pick up at that lvl. So wouldn't it be less than a good thing if you were going down the assassin sub but never got assassinate, which leads to the high potential damage output?
Steady Aim is an optional feature from Tasha's, but it is not a replacement feature. All Rogues get steady aim (if you are playing with it) in addition to whatever subclass ability they get.
Yeah I found that after typing that out and then seeing my book close at hand. I feel like I crit failed a perception check So what race do you think would be the most fun to run this build on if I didn't choose variant human or custom linage?
So for non var human/custom lineage races. Just a note with gloom stalker rogue you are playing an A+ multiclass combo you can really do whatever you want.
Generally with a gloom stalker/archer we are looking for a racial option that provide some fun dark edge with mechanics that help our Ranger/rogue skills and archery.
Flyers - If your dm lets you play something that flys then do it. Owlin would be my favorite. Gets you the stealth skill. The ability to fly on an archer is mostly broken.
Races with spells/spell like features - Hexblood, Duergar, Shadar-kai, Githzerai, Githyanki are all good. Any of the Genasi. Rangers are very limited on spells so getting 1 or 2 more spells known can be really useful. The githzerai gettign shield spell is really strong. I would probably go with either air genasi or shadar-kai.
More blood for the blood god - You might be the kind of person who wants to do more damage. Bugbear add 2d6 on attacks if the enemy hasn't gone yet. And they get stealth skill.
Some other underrated choices are
Lizardfolk for a better AC, more skills, and the ability to just bite a dude with a bonus action.
Dhampire for more skills, biting dudes, and walking on the ceiling
My personal experience with playing two ranger/rogues, one I've played for over a year and she's 15th level. I have a 8th level one in dungeon of mad mage now (both drow)
Gloomstalker/scout is in my opinion better than assassin. I'm just not impressed with a once a combat at most ability. I use nature and survival expertise all the time for tracking and monster part harvesting etc and knowledge checks. The reaction skirmisher move away is awesome for survivability, eventual 10' more movement and the 13th level feature is great too, especially with gloom stalker 5 giving you 3 attacks first round (with sharpshooter...) add 2 levels fighter and action surge at highest levels for 5 at advantage shots first round.
I use a longbow. There may be math reasons crossbow expert wins out but I think its just dumb to think a character is whipping out a hand crossbow on bonus actions
Rogues already have awesome things to do with bonus actions. You want to be super mobile and to hide or disengage. Mobility is key to your effectiveness (figure out how to fly. I use a broom. If you are allowed to start with one uncommon magic item I cant suggest a broom any stronger)
Personally I start 1 rogue then go 5 ranger, then back rogue forever or two levels of fighter at some point.
What about a single dip into Twilight Cleric for killer sniper's nightvision?