This was already overly discussed in other recent topics.
I will always choose Favored Foe and Deft Explorer because I personally favor features that can be applied in combat and are not situational.
I really like that Deft Explorer can make you better at Perception or Stealth who are the most the useful skills. And if you are playing a Fey Wanderer and wanna be the party face, get Persuasion. If you wanna be a grappler / shover STRanger, get Athletics. It’s much more versatile than we think.
This was already overly discussed in other recent topics.
I will always choose Favored Foe and Deft Explorer because I personally favor features that can be applied in combat and are not situational.
I really like that Deft Explorer can make you better at Perception or Stealth who are the most the useful skills. And if you are playing a Fey Wanderer and wanna be the party face, get Persuasion. If you wanna be a grappler / shover STRanger, get Athletics. It’s much more versatile than we think.
I just want to say. Thank you for the answer and the way you phrased it. it's nice to see a personal preference without noticable dislike for the other option. I can appreciate why you lean in the direction you do as a personal taste and actually agree. Deft Explorer does have some variety to how it can be used and is not as situational. it trades situational broadness for Focus and i am appreciative of it in that regard.
This was already overly discussed in other recent topics.
I will always choose Favored Foe and Deft Explorer because I personally favor features that can be applied in combat and are not situational.
I really like that Deft Explorer can make you better at Perception or Stealth who are the most the useful skills. And if you are playing a Fey Wanderer and wanna be the party face, get Persuasion. If you wanna be a grappler / shover STRanger, get Athletics. It’s much more versatile than we think.
I just want to say. Thank you for the answer and the way you phrased it. it's nice to see a personal preference without noticable dislike for the other option. I can appreciate why you lean in the direction you do as a personal taste and actually agree. Deft Explorer does have some variety to how it can be used and is not as situational. it trades situational broadness for Focus and i am appreciative of it in that regard.
Thank you for the kind words. I actually like Natural Explorer, but my current DMs don’t focus that much in the exploration pillar and the truth is that we never had a good opportunity where someone looked upon and said: “Wow, I could use some advantage in Survival checks”
On the other hand, we are all the time rolling Perception to avoid traps, ambushes and imminent danger — and expertise in Perception helps a lot!
Yeah! The hunter subclass has all of this great little micro customization at each subclass level. Similar to the baseline warlock and battle master fighter. Now the baseline ranger has it as well! Great for everyone!
Same terrain across all (or almost all) of the possible campaign (ToA, RotF, DiA if you consider Avernus a Desert)? Then Natural Explorer is possible. Everywhere else, I'd go with Deft Explorer.
Same terrain across all (or almost all) of the possible campaign (ToA, RotF, DiA if you consider Avernus a Desert)? Then Natural Explorer is possible. Everywhere else, I'd go with Deft Explorer.
I'm not sure the ability NE is meant to be always on. If deft explorer is any kind of comparison, I know it's not meant to be always on. It's more like lock-picking and disarming traps.
This was already overly discussed in other recent topics.
I will always choose Favored Foe and Deft Explorer because I personally favor features that can be applied in combat and are not situational.
I really like that Deft Explorer can make you better at Perception or Stealth who are the most the useful skills. And if you are playing a Fey Wanderer and wanna be the party face, get Persuasion. If you wanna be a grappler / shover STRanger, get Athletics. It’s much more versatile than we think.
I just want to say. Thank you for the answer and the way you phrased it. it's nice to see a personal preference without noticable dislike for the other option. I can appreciate why you lean in the direction you do as a personal taste and actually agree. Deft Explorer does have some variety to how it can be used and is not as situational. it trades situational broadness for Focus and i am appreciative of it in that regard.
Thank you for the kind words. I actually like Natural Explorer, but my current DMs don’t focus that much in the exploration pillar and the truth is that we never had a good opportunity where someone looked upon and said: “Wow, I could use some advantage in Survival checks”
On the other hand, we are all the time rolling Perception to avoid traps, ambushes and imminent danger — and expertise in Perception helps a lot!
This is where a mix creativity and understanding of the game mechanics and game world can really shine. There are ways to actively engage certain skills more often. during "that hour" where the wizard is prepping spells a ranger could be sitting in a blind watching the surrounding nature. Every now and then you will get a tip. Maybe the local movement patterns of animals (history or investigation) (like away from danger) or maybe see a roaming poisonous creature That you can harvest from (nature or poisoners kit). You might be able to see recent Magical effects in the area (Archana). You might be able to figure out what would be exotic foods or trade goods from the area earning a bonus when selling something. these are things that a ranger should take the opportunity to prepare out of combat. Have you ever flat out asked a dm "how many hit points dose this creature have?" some will let you make a medicine check.
Many times I find if you hit on an idea the dm never thought of but would agree it applies, they will appreciate engaging in their world making it more immersive for every one at the table. and you will start to see more opportunities arise to reward those uncommon proficiency choices.
So, I've been playing this campaign where, for once, I'm not the party Ranger. I'm a Devotion Paladin. But we do have a player who is a Ranger (Lizardfolk Tasha Beast Master.) He opted to stick with Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer over the respective Tasha variants and, honestly, I've found myself jealous of him many a time.
The whole campaign is based on an island, so it was one part him choosing useful Favored Terrain (Coast) for the setting and one part the DM making sure there is plenty to do near the coastline, but Natural Explorer has come online so frequently it's actually jarring whenever he *doesn't* get the benefits of that feature.
Now, as a Paladin, I tend to do better in combat (this is partly due to the dice gods,) and I'm no slouch in the roleplay, but seriously. Outside of combat, he dominates with Natural Explorer. To the point where it often feels like we're his sidekicks more than anything. The amount of times that proccing Natural Explorer has saved our hides is absolutely staggering. And it's been an invaluable tool for us. Perhaps the MVP of the whole party's non-combat class features. Mind you, the DM doesn't only stick to the coastline either. We go into all sorts of environments. But he's made sure that Coast comes up enough to more than justify Natural Explorer's presence in the party.
(Party is level 10, btw. And it consists of the T-Beast Master Ranger; me, the Changeling Devotion Pally, a Kalashtar Life Cleric, a Human Storm Herald Barbarian, and a Genasi Storm Sorc.)
I play both, to some extent it’s based on the character concept and where possible some prior knowledge of the DM’s world and region. Since many/most campaigns happen in a midieval Europe clone area I tend to take forest when I take NE as, like the island campaign and coast it’s most likely to be useful. The idea that there are 8+ terrains and the most I can get is 3 is a bummer. If I know I’m going to be changing terrains or out of my home terrain ( from backstory) I generally take DE.
I play both, to some extent it’s based on the character concept and where possible some prior knowledge of the DM’s world and region. Since many/most campaigns happen in a midieval Europe clone area I tend to take forest when I take NE as, like the island campaign and coast it’s most likely to be useful. The idea that there are 8+ terrains and the most I can get is 3 is a bummer. If I know I’m going to be changing terrains or out of my home terrain ( from backstory) I generally take DE.
I played a crocfolk (lizardfolk) beast master in the Call from the Deep book. Lots of fun!
I don't think that 8+ is realistic. Half of those terrains are not tough to survive in, navigate in, or travel through. We are likely talking about maybe 4 or 5 terrains "worth" taking as a favored terrain.
I agree in general but each has its own difficulties. As I’ve said before, if I could change NE I make it so you gain 1 every 4 or 5 levels (especially if you’ve been moving between terrains). I would also probably add urban along with some sort of bounty hunter type of subclass to illustrate its usage. Another change I would love to see is that taking each terrain granted the ranger a skill/tool set/ability that made surviving and operating in that environment easier/possible.
Let’s see which terrains are really worth getting:
Arctic - given Faerun’s icewind dale and the great glacier there is clearly some in-game use for this terrain and dealing with extreme cold and hypothermic waters as well as some of the beasts are clearly out of the norm problems that call for special skills. this should grant leather working skills/leather working tools. Coast to me this is a useless one, it should be Marine and include both deep water and coastal waters and grant a swim speed of like 10-15’ and use of navigator’s tools Desert - this is a good one, it should be granting things like finding water, traveling by the stars at night (basic navigation skills and or navigator’s tools Forest - another basic terrain, it should allow taking either woodworking or leather working skill/tools Grassland - I’m iffy here, it’s actually harder to survive on the prairie than in the forest between needing to find water, avoiding too much sun and trying to stay out of sight with little to hide behind but how do you get that into most games? Not sure what skill should go with this terrain, perhaps animal handling as most of our herding/riding beasts come from this terrain. Mountain - probably the most misunderstood terrain, this is really survival above the tree line so it has a lot of similarities to Arctic in dealing with the cold. It also deals with loose rock, slides, perhaps even locating caves. If I were giving it a skill/tool kit it would be the climber’s kit and a climbing speed of 5-10’. Swamp - Dealing with places like the Vast swamp in Faerun or the Bayous, Everglades, Okefenokee, etc is certainly different from anywhere else. It’s not necessarily a commonly taken one but it should be there. And it should grant the water vehicles skill or something similar (canoes/small boats/etc) Underdark - given the game this one is a must to be present, in older versions it was typically the last one you took as you got up high enough in level for Drow to become a common foe. Now that Drow have been nerfed it’s reasonable at any level. None of the normal skills/tools do much good in the underdark you pretty much have to have a means of dark vision to get around and I don’t want to just hand that out like a skill. Same thing for stuff like tremorsense and blindsight. Maybe something like cartographers tools but an innate sense location like the the one Heinlein’s hero in Glory Road had. other terrains that maybe should Exist that don’t:
Marine should replace coast as I said above. FeyWild - like the old underdark this is a new and dangerous environment with its own weird twists and turns but it’s definitely a wilderness so there must be rangers there and it should be calling for its own knowledge and abilities. At the very least taking it should also grant the sylvan language. Shadowfell - like the Feywild this is a new environment that is very different from the prime and should be a choice especially at upper levels. Because it is supposed to have a malaise that affects most folks at 5he very least taking this terrain should provide immunity to that malaise. Urban - In my opinion, it’s time to accept the urban ranger as a ranger and give them their own terrain. Things like the semi-official RatKing have tried and aren’t too bad. If nothing else they should maybe get land vehicles as a skill.
I voted a while ago, but I'll finally weigh in with a proper response.
Deft Explorer is boring, generalist, and uninteresting. But it has its uses. If you're playing primarily in dungeons or urban settings where the terms and conditions of Natural Explorer won't apply, then it's fantastic. That said, you can find wilderness terrain in cities. Parks could be grassland or forest. A large enough sewer system could be considered underdark─especially if they actually connect.
Natural Explorer gets a bad reputation because people don't know how to use it. Because people gloss over the movement rules in Chapter 8 of the PHB because they're not all combat-related. People say it trivializes the exploration pillar, removing it completely, and they couldn't be more wrong. All it does is let the ranger multitask while also giving them perks that no one else can get. See, when you travel, everyone gets to contribute their passive Perception to be aware for possible threats. Makes sense, right? But what if you're also performing another activity?
This is where Natural Explorer comes into play. When you perform another activity (cartography, foraging, tracking, etc.), you normally don't get to add your passive Perception to the group's. Except, as a ranger in your Favored Terrain, you do. This is why I said they can multitask. They can perform a second task in addition to being alert to threats. And they get to double their proficiency bonus, provided they're already proficient. So not only can the ranger perform a second task, they can also still functionally have Expertise with both their second job and their passive Perception. And this extends to any Intelligence or Wisdom check related to the terrain. Not just skills, but tools, too. Folk Hero, Sailor, and (to a lesser extent) Guild Artisan are all excellent choices for a ranger's background.
With Natural Explorer, you can draw a map (no ability check required) and still be alert to danger. You can forage, navigate, or track, via a Wisdom (Survival) check, and still be alert to danger. You can pilot a boat up and down the coast or river, adding double your proficiency bonus to its AC, and still be alert to danger. And I haven't even touched how informative it can be on different territorial cultures and civilizations.
Having a ranger with Natural Explorer in the party is kind of like having an elf in a party of only three. The elf can use their Trance feature and cover two shifts during a long rest. It's a darn powerful tool to have, but it's useless if you're not going to make use of that part of the game. Which is why it's so disappointing that "urban" wasn't included as a possible Favored Terrain. If it was, the ranger could literally be at full strength anywhere.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Multiple choices allowed.
Not as many comments on this poll versus the favored enemy and favored foe poll. Strange.
I'm more 50/50 on this than the Favored Enemy/Foe.
I think Natural Explorer is hella slept on and I love that feature, but Deft Explorer has plenty of utility too.
This was already overly discussed in other recent topics.
I will always choose Favored Foe and Deft Explorer because I personally favor features that can be applied in combat and are not situational.
I really like that Deft Explorer can make you better at Perception or Stealth who are the most the useful skills. And if you are playing a Fey Wanderer and wanna be the party face, get Persuasion. If you wanna be a grappler / shover STRanger, get Athletics. It’s much more versatile than we think.
I just want to say. Thank you for the answer and the way you phrased it. it's nice to see a personal preference without noticable dislike for the other option. I can appreciate why you lean in the direction you do as a personal taste and actually agree. Deft Explorer does have some variety to how it can be used and is not as situational. it trades situational broadness for Focus and i am appreciative of it in that regard.
Thank you for the kind words. I actually like Natural Explorer, but my current DMs don’t focus that much in the exploration pillar and the truth is that we never had a good opportunity where someone looked upon and said: “Wow, I could use some advantage in Survival checks”
On the other hand, we are all the time rolling Perception to avoid traps, ambushes and imminent danger — and expertise in Perception helps a lot!
Yeah! The hunter subclass has all of this great little micro customization at each subclass level. Similar to the baseline warlock and battle master fighter. Now the baseline ranger has it as well! Great for everyone!
Same terrain across all (or almost all) of the possible campaign (ToA, RotF, DiA if you consider Avernus a Desert)? Then Natural Explorer is possible. Everywhere else, I'd go with Deft Explorer.
Art Portfolio
I'm not sure the ability NE is meant to be always on. If deft explorer is any kind of comparison, I know it's not meant to be always on. It's more like lock-picking and disarming traps.
This is where a mix creativity and understanding of the game mechanics and game world can really shine. There are ways to actively engage certain skills more often. during "that hour" where the wizard is prepping spells a ranger could be sitting in a blind watching the surrounding nature. Every now and then you will get a tip. Maybe the local movement patterns of animals (history or investigation) (like away from danger) or maybe see a roaming poisonous creature That you can harvest from (nature or poisoners kit). You might be able to see recent Magical effects in the area (Archana). You might be able to figure out what would be exotic foods or trade goods from the area earning a bonus when selling something. these are things that a ranger should take the opportunity to prepare out of combat. Have you ever flat out asked a dm "how many hit points dose this creature have?" some will let you make a medicine check.
Many times I find if you hit on an idea the dm never thought of but would agree it applies, they will appreciate engaging in their world making it more immersive for every one at the table. and you will start to see more opportunities arise to reward those uncommon proficiency choices.
A few folks from the ranger forum are currently playing side by side comparisons of these features online.
So, I've been playing this campaign where, for once, I'm not the party Ranger. I'm a Devotion Paladin. But we do have a player who is a Ranger (Lizardfolk Tasha Beast Master.) He opted to stick with Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer over the respective Tasha variants and, honestly, I've found myself jealous of him many a time.
The whole campaign is based on an island, so it was one part him choosing useful Favored Terrain (Coast) for the setting and one part the DM making sure there is plenty to do near the coastline, but Natural Explorer has come online so frequently it's actually jarring whenever he *doesn't* get the benefits of that feature.
Now, as a Paladin, I tend to do better in combat (this is partly due to the dice gods,) and I'm no slouch in the roleplay, but seriously. Outside of combat, he dominates with Natural Explorer. To the point where it often feels like we're his sidekicks more than anything. The amount of times that proccing Natural Explorer has saved our hides is absolutely staggering. And it's been an invaluable tool for us. Perhaps the MVP of the whole party's non-combat class features. Mind you, the DM doesn't only stick to the coastline either. We go into all sorts of environments. But he's made sure that Coast comes up enough to more than justify Natural Explorer's presence in the party.
(Party is level 10, btw. And it consists of the T-Beast Master Ranger; me, the Changeling Devotion Pally, a Kalashtar Life Cleric, a Human Storm Herald Barbarian, and a Genasi Storm Sorc.)
These poll results get more and more interesting as time goes on.
I play both, to some extent it’s based on the character concept and where possible some prior knowledge of the DM’s world and region. Since many/most campaigns happen in a midieval Europe clone area I tend to take forest when I take NE as, like the island campaign and coast it’s most likely to be useful. The idea that there are 8+ terrains and the most I can get is 3 is a bummer. If I know I’m going to be changing terrains or out of my home terrain ( from backstory) I generally take DE.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I played a crocfolk (lizardfolk) beast master in the Call from the Deep book. Lots of fun!
I don't think that 8+ is realistic. Half of those terrains are not tough to survive in, navigate in, or travel through. We are likely talking about maybe 4 or 5 terrains "worth" taking as a favored terrain.
I agree in general but each has its own difficulties. As I’ve said before, if I could change NE I make it so you gain 1 every 4 or 5 levels (especially if you’ve been moving between terrains). I would also probably add urban along with some sort of bounty hunter type of subclass to illustrate its usage. Another change I would love to see is that taking each terrain granted the ranger a skill/tool set/ability that made surviving and operating in that environment easier/possible.
Let’s see which terrains are really worth getting:
Arctic - given Faerun’s icewind dale and the great glacier there is clearly some in-game use for this terrain and dealing with extreme cold and hypothermic waters as well as some of the beasts are clearly out of the norm problems that call for special skills. this should grant leather working skills/leather working tools.
Coast to me this is a useless one, it should be Marine and include both deep water and coastal waters and grant a swim speed of like 10-15’ and use of navigator’s tools
Desert - this is a good one, it should be granting things like finding water, traveling by the stars at night (basic navigation skills and or navigator’s tools
Forest - another basic terrain, it should allow taking either woodworking or leather working skill/tools
Grassland - I’m iffy here, it’s actually harder to survive on the prairie than in the forest between needing to find water, avoiding too much sun and trying to stay out of sight with little to hide behind but how do you get that into most games? Not sure what skill should go with this terrain, perhaps animal handling as most of our herding/riding beasts come from this terrain.
Mountain - probably the most misunderstood terrain, this is really survival above the tree line so it has a lot of similarities to Arctic in dealing with the cold. It also deals with loose rock, slides, perhaps even locating caves. If I were giving it a skill/tool kit it would be the climber’s kit and a climbing speed of 5-10’.
Swamp - Dealing with places like the Vast swamp in Faerun or the Bayous, Everglades, Okefenokee, etc is certainly different from anywhere else. It’s not necessarily a commonly taken one but it should be there. And it should grant the water vehicles skill or something similar (canoes/small boats/etc)
Underdark - given the game this one is a must to be present, in older versions it was typically the last one you took as you got up high enough in level for Drow to become a common foe. Now that Drow have been nerfed it’s reasonable at any level. None of the normal skills/tools do much good in the underdark you pretty much have to have a means of dark vision to get around and I don’t want to just hand that out like a skill. Same thing for stuff like tremorsense and blindsight. Maybe something like cartographers tools but an innate sense location like the the one Heinlein’s hero in Glory Road had.
other terrains that maybe should Exist that don’t:
Marine should replace coast as I said above.
FeyWild - like the old underdark this is a new and dangerous environment with its own weird twists and turns but it’s definitely a wilderness so there must be rangers there and it should be calling for its own knowledge and abilities. At the very least taking it should also grant the sylvan language.
Shadowfell - like the Feywild this is a new environment that is very different from the prime and should be a choice especially at upper levels. Because it is supposed to have a malaise that affects most folks at 5he very least taking this terrain should provide immunity to that malaise.
Urban - In my opinion, it’s time to accept the urban ranger as a ranger and give them their own terrain. Things like the semi-official RatKing have tried and aren’t too bad. If nothing else they should maybe get land vehicles as a skill.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I voted a while ago, but I'll finally weigh in with a proper response.
Deft Explorer is boring, generalist, and uninteresting. But it has its uses. If you're playing primarily in dungeons or urban settings where the terms and conditions of Natural Explorer won't apply, then it's fantastic. That said, you can find wilderness terrain in cities. Parks could be grassland or forest. A large enough sewer system could be considered underdark─especially if they actually connect.
Natural Explorer gets a bad reputation because people don't know how to use it. Because people gloss over the movement rules in Chapter 8 of the PHB because they're not all combat-related. People say it trivializes the exploration pillar, removing it completely, and they couldn't be more wrong. All it does is let the ranger multitask while also giving them perks that no one else can get. See, when you travel, everyone gets to contribute their passive Perception to be aware for possible threats. Makes sense, right? But what if you're also performing another activity?
This is where Natural Explorer comes into play. When you perform another activity (cartography, foraging, tracking, etc.), you normally don't get to add your passive Perception to the group's. Except, as a ranger in your Favored Terrain, you do. This is why I said they can multitask. They can perform a second task in addition to being alert to threats. And they get to double their proficiency bonus, provided they're already proficient. So not only can the ranger perform a second task, they can also still functionally have Expertise with both their second job and their passive Perception. And this extends to any Intelligence or Wisdom check related to the terrain. Not just skills, but tools, too. Folk Hero, Sailor, and (to a lesser extent) Guild Artisan are all excellent choices for a ranger's background.
With Natural Explorer, you can draw a map (no ability check required) and still be alert to danger. You can forage, navigate, or track, via a Wisdom (Survival) check, and still be alert to danger. You can pilot a boat up and down the coast or river, adding double your proficiency bonus to its AC, and still be alert to danger. And I haven't even touched how informative it can be on different territorial cultures and civilizations.
Having a ranger with Natural Explorer in the party is kind of like having an elf in a party of only three. The elf can use their Trance feature and cover two shifts during a long rest. It's a darn powerful tool to have, but it's useless if you're not going to make use of that part of the game. Which is why it's so disappointing that "urban" wasn't included as a possible Favored Terrain. If it was, the ranger could literally be at full strength anywhere.