With the unearthed arcana feature do you think it's as useful for a rogue to take a multi-class dip to get extra attack? Much of their damage comes from guaranteeing sneak Attack more than multiples, so is it worthwhile for anything other than flexibility?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks for taking my hobbies and ruining them, one genre at a time WotC and Hasbro.
I always think a rogue should take a 5lv dip to get a second attack. The average damage it nets due to higher chance of landing sneak attack is not to be underestimated. Not doing so should require a particular explanation from a power-perspective.
Rolling two d20 to land sneak attack is rolling two d20. Whether you're using your bonus action on a second attack for the second d20 or rolling it as advantage for the first doesn't really matter in the long run. The extra ~7ish damage you get from the offhand dagger once Sneak Attack lands becomes increasingly irrelevant; unless you have two different high-power magic blades, two-weapon fighting becomes obnoxious.
Extra Attack is much the same way, save it requires you to kill five rogue levels to do it. Everyone says "oiy, no problem!" until they remember that sometimes (many times, in fact), five levels is all you get period, and in a lot of other games five levels is half your character. It's not an insignificant expenditure of resources, whereas Cunning Aim is an always-on, level 2 forward way of getting that second d20 - or of applying it to things like Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, if you're a magic rogue using blade cantrips to enhance your sneak attack.
A level 17 rogue using Booming Blade gets 9d6 Sneak damage and 3d8 extra thunder damage on top of their 1d6+5 basic attack. A level 12 rogue/5 Martial Whatsit gets 6d6 Sneak damage, no thunder or fire, and an extra 1d6+5. Basically 1d6 and 1d8, so 7+1 instead of 9+3. One of those really does seem an awful lot like a bad deal to me, unless the rest of your build is really dependent on whatever those first four levels before Extra Attack gets you.
I was looking at three levels of gloomstalker for the archetype bonuses. Rope trick at 5 is nice but admittedly I can do that with AT on its own. I cannot however do pass without trace, and considering my previous mention about the spells known via multiclassing, sounds like I wouldn't be able to get it without at least 5 levels in ranger.
Rolling two d20 to land sneak attack is rolling two d20. Whether you're using your bonus action on a second attack for the second d20 or rolling it as advantage for the first doesn't really matter in the long run. The extra ~7ish damage you get from the offhand dagger once Sneak Attack lands becomes increasingly irrelevant; unless you have two different high-power magic blades, two-weapon fighting becomes obnoxious.
Extra Attack is much the same way, save it requires you to kill five rogue levels to do it. Everyone says "oiy, no problem!" until they remember that sometimes (many times, in fact), five levels is all you get period, and in a lot of other games five levels is half your character. It's not an insignificant expenditure of resources, whereas Cunning Aim is an always-on, level 2 forward way of getting that second d20 - or of applying it to things like Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, if you're a magic rogue using blade cantrips to enhance your sneak attack.
A level 17 rogue using Booming Blade gets 9d6 Sneak damage and 3d8 extra thunder damage on top of their 1d6+5 basic attack. A level 12 rogue/5 Martial Whatsit gets 6d6 Sneak damage, no thunder or fire, and an extra 1d6+5. Basically 1d6 and 1d8, so 7+1 instead of 9+3. One of those really does seem an awful lot like a bad deal to me, unless the rest of your build is really dependent on whatever those first four levels before Extra Attack gets you.
Yes, and no to the damage tradeoff.
There are some boosts where the loss of sneak attack dice is negligible, or even leads to increased damage.
For instance, a rogue that multiclasses into a full casting class like bladesinger or war wizard - one gives a huge boost to AC by adding INT through bladesong, the other adds to initiative and arcane deflection can be used to give a small enough boost to your AC or saving throws that you're not proficient in. They both also add to arcane trickster's utility by allowing more spells that aren't enchantment and illusion.
Also, because you're multiclassing a 1/3 caster with a full caster you end up with more spell slots for things like an upcasted shadowblade. A level 20 rogue with let's say...a 1D6 hand crossbow + 5 dex + 10 from sharpshooter, and another 10D6 sneak attack dice is going to deal an average of 53.5 damage per hit. If they do booming blade with a rapier it's 4D8 +5 dex + 10D6 = 58 average damage without the rider hitting yet. Not shabby. It sucks if you miss, though.
A level 11 rogue/9 wizard has the same slots as an 11th level caster and can do this nasty trick; upcast shadowblade to 5th level (4D8 +5 dex) booming blade (3D8 + 4D8 rider) +6D6 sneak attack = 57.5 average damage per turn with no rider. If only casting it at 3rd level then it's 4.5 damage less, so...53 damage.
BUT WAIT! If you go with bladesinger in this combo, you get a second attack! So 5th level shadowblade x 2 attacks = 8D8 + 10 dex + 6D6 sneak attack = 67 average damage per turn. And it's even nastier when the party sorcerer twins haste on you and the paladin.
All of which ignores the point I was trying to make, which was that assuming a level 20 character's capabilities is not always ideal. Extra Attack requires either five levels in a martial class or six in Bladesinger/Valor/Swordsbard, which not every character is going to be able to stomach. I'm fully aware that high-level multiclass options are cool, but at level 10? Maybe those five levels of not-rogue to get Extra Attack to land your whalloping 3d6 Sneak damage every turn are better spent elsewhere unless the rest of the combination is worth it.
A lot of people make a lot of noise about "guaranteeing" Sneak Attack through various forms of extra-attack chicanery. All the while forgetting that once you land the Sneak Attack, those extra resources are largely wasted. Cunning Aim lets you focus on landing critical attacks when you need to without bothering with two-weapon fighting or giving up half your character for an Extra Attack you fail to care about any time your first attack succeeds. it's easy, it's simple, it gets the job done. Why complicate things unless you're going for a specific theme?
Level 10 rogue 1D8 + dex (lets say +4 at this level) + 5D6 sneak attack = 26 average damage
Level 5 rogue/level 5 ranger or fighter: 1D8 + dex x 2 from multi attack + 3D6 sneak attack = 27.5 average damage
Balance is built into the game, my dude. 1.5 damage difference is negligible, so it really depends on what extra perks the player wants for their character.
Dont forget that two attacks is two attacks that can have advantage, and duelist style gives every attack +2 damage, and hunters mark gets +1d6 damage on every attack. If you are lucky and get a flaming blade there is another 2d6. Favored enemy works the same.
in short, extra attacks are massive when considering any number of carry-on effects.
I think Cunning action aim would be a useful dip for bards especially college of whispers. You are delaying spellcasting but you gain extra expertise and other cunning action options. I could see someone wanting to use this if they want to land psychic blades.
I think Cunning action aim would be a useful dip for bards especially college of whispers. You are delaying spellcasting but you gain extra expertise and other cunning action options. I could see someone wanting to use this if they want to land psychic blades.
Hard pass. I have a tier 3 whisper bard and my bonus action is tied up using 2 shots from swift quiver. In all honesty, bonus action hide is just as good at giving rogue advantage to attack, or help action with familiar as well.
With the unearthed arcana feature do you think it's as useful for a rogue to take a multi-class dip to get extra attack? Much of their damage comes from guaranteeing sneak Attack more than multiples, so is it worthwhile for anything other than flexibility?
Thanks for taking my hobbies and ruining them, one genre at a time WotC and Hasbro.
I always think a rogue should take a 5lv dip to get a second attack. The average damage it nets due to higher chance of landing sneak attack is not to be underestimated. Not doing so should require a particular explanation from a power-perspective.
i think it depends on your subclass 17th level ability. The scout for instance lets you take a bonus action to attack that can apply sneak attack.
Rolling two d20 to land sneak attack is rolling two d20. Whether you're using your bonus action on a second attack for the second d20 or rolling it as advantage for the first doesn't really matter in the long run. The extra ~7ish damage you get from the offhand dagger once Sneak Attack lands becomes increasingly irrelevant; unless you have two different high-power magic blades, two-weapon fighting becomes obnoxious.
Extra Attack is much the same way, save it requires you to kill five rogue levels to do it. Everyone says "oiy, no problem!" until they remember that sometimes (many times, in fact), five levels is all you get period, and in a lot of other games five levels is half your character. It's not an insignificant expenditure of resources, whereas Cunning Aim is an always-on, level 2 forward way of getting that second d20 - or of applying it to things like Green Flame Blade/Booming Blade, if you're a magic rogue using blade cantrips to enhance your sneak attack.
A level 17 rogue using Booming Blade gets 9d6 Sneak damage and 3d8 extra thunder damage on top of their 1d6+5 basic attack. A level 12 rogue/5 Martial Whatsit gets 6d6 Sneak damage, no thunder or fire, and an extra 1d6+5. Basically 1d6 and 1d8, so 7+1 instead of 9+3. One of those really does seem an awful lot like a bad deal to me, unless the rest of your build is really dependent on whatever those first four levels before Extra Attack gets you.
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
I was looking at three levels of gloomstalker for the archetype bonuses. Rope trick at 5 is nice but admittedly I can do that with AT on its own. I cannot however do pass without trace, and considering my previous mention about the spells known via multiclassing, sounds like I wouldn't be able to get it without at least 5 levels in ranger.
Thanks for taking my hobbies and ruining them, one genre at a time WotC and Hasbro.
Yes, and no to the damage tradeoff.
There are some boosts where the loss of sneak attack dice is negligible, or even leads to increased damage.
For instance, a rogue that multiclasses into a full casting class like bladesinger or war wizard - one gives a huge boost to AC by adding INT through bladesong, the other adds to initiative and arcane deflection can be used to give a small enough boost to your AC or saving throws that you're not proficient in. They both also add to arcane trickster's utility by allowing more spells that aren't enchantment and illusion.
Also, because you're multiclassing a 1/3 caster with a full caster you end up with more spell slots for things like an upcasted shadowblade. A level 20 rogue with let's say...a 1D6 hand crossbow + 5 dex + 10 from sharpshooter, and another 10D6 sneak attack dice is going to deal an average of 53.5 damage per hit. If they do booming blade with a rapier it's 4D8 +5 dex + 10D6 = 58 average damage without the rider hitting yet. Not shabby. It sucks if you miss, though.
A level 11 rogue/9 wizard has the same slots as an 11th level caster and can do this nasty trick; upcast shadowblade to 5th level (4D8 +5 dex) booming blade (3D8 + 4D8 rider) +6D6 sneak attack = 57.5 average damage per turn with no rider. If only casting it at 3rd level then it's 4.5 damage less, so...53 damage.
BUT WAIT! If you go with bladesinger in this combo, you get a second attack! So 5th level shadowblade x 2 attacks = 8D8 + 10 dex + 6D6 sneak attack = 67 average damage per turn. And it's even nastier when the party sorcerer twins haste on you and the paladin.
All of which ignores the point I was trying to make, which was that assuming a level 20 character's capabilities is not always ideal. Extra Attack requires either five levels in a martial class or six in Bladesinger/Valor/Swordsbard, which not every character is going to be able to stomach. I'm fully aware that high-level multiclass options are cool, but at level 10? Maybe those five levels of not-rogue to get Extra Attack to land your whalloping 3d6 Sneak damage every turn are better spent elsewhere unless the rest of the combination is worth it.
A lot of people make a lot of noise about "guaranteeing" Sneak Attack through various forms of extra-attack chicanery. All the while forgetting that once you land the Sneak Attack, those extra resources are largely wasted. Cunning Aim lets you focus on landing critical attacks when you need to without bothering with two-weapon fighting or giving up half your character for an Extra Attack you fail to care about any time your first attack succeeds. it's easy, it's simple, it gets the job done. Why complicate things unless you're going for a specific theme?
Why you shouldn't start ANOTHER thread about DDB not giving away free redeems on your hardcopy book purchases.
Thinking of starting ANOTHER thread asking why Epic Boons haven't been implemented? Read this first to learn why you shouldn't!
Here's another example.
Level 10 rogue 1D8 + dex (lets say +4 at this level) + 5D6 sneak attack = 26 average damage
Level 5 rogue/level 5 ranger or fighter: 1D8 + dex x 2 from multi attack + 3D6 sneak attack = 27.5 average damage
Balance is built into the game, my dude. 1.5 damage difference is negligible, so it really depends on what extra perks the player wants for their character.
Dont forget that two attacks is two attacks that can have advantage, and duelist style gives every attack +2 damage, and hunters mark gets +1d6 damage on every attack. If you are lucky and get a flaming blade there is another 2d6. Favored enemy works the same.
in short, extra attacks are massive when considering any number of carry-on effects.
I think Cunning action aim would be a useful dip for bards especially college of whispers. You are delaying spellcasting but you gain extra expertise and other cunning action options. I could see someone wanting to use this if they want to land psychic blades.
Your secret is safe with my indifference - Percy
Hard pass. I have a tier 3 whisper bard and my bonus action is tied up using 2 shots from swift quiver. In all honesty, bonus action hide is just as good at giving rogue advantage to attack, or help action with familiar as well.