Hi, fellow DM's. How would you rule it if a PC has the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and they are in combat with a creature that has a drain Strength ability. I see on DnDbeyond if you reduce a characters strength by setting other modifier the stat remains the same as if the drain strength ability had no effect. What I'm wondering is this. Are magical items that powerful that they ignore the abilities of for example a Shade? Would it drain the natural strength of the character, or would it drain the current strength due to the gauntlets? Any feedback, suggestions or form of RAW rule that would explain this would be most welcome.
@calebrus44 Still looking for an answer: Str 10; Ogre gauntlets Str 19; Hit by Shadow for 1pt Str damage; What's my Str?
@calebrus44 Is it 9, 10, 18, 19, or a combination of two of those simultaneously?
@JeremyECrawford It's 19 with the item and 9 without.
@calebrus44 So magic items which grant ability scores effectively make you immune to ability damage / drain.
@JeremyECrawford If an ability score is replaced by a magic item while you wear it, a score reduction affects your score, not the score from the item. #DnD
@ZacharyCauchi used lose one strength point, from 10 to 9, but your gauntlets would allow you to maintain 19 strength?
Going by what a Shadow uses, your strength score is reduced, but the Gauntlets constantly set your strength to 19, leading to apparently funky math like "19 - 1d4 = 19". But if you fight a Shadow, and take the Gauntlets off before Resting, you'll (potentially) die from having 0 strength. Mid-fight, barring some crazy attempt to take the GoOP off you, you can safely ignore the strength drain.
It's not that magic items are that powerful, it's that this particular item directly counters this particular attack. Just like you'd expect a Ring of Poison Immunity to make the wearer immune to poison attacks.
If there is a smart foe behind the Shadows, you could let the player be immune for a few fights, & then have the boss wise up. Tweak a few Shadows to drain Dex or Con instead if you like. It is also fine to leave things as they are, risking the death of the rest of the party by strength drain until the Gauntlet Hero stands alone and falls to overwhelming numbers & the necrotic damage they deal.
"Strength Drain. Melee Weapon Attack:+4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 9 (2d6 + 2) necrotic damage, and the target's Strength score is reduced by 1d4. The target dies if this reduces its Strength to 0. Otherwise, the reduction lasts until the target finishes a short or long rest."
"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is 19 or higher without them."
The gauntlets make the character's strength 19. No matter how many times the Shadow hits them, as long as they are wearing the gauntlets, their strength is 19. It's a DM call as to whether the strength drain would affect the character's unmodified strength score but the wording of the gauntlets is that the characters strength score is 19 so a completely valid interpretation would be that the gauntlets make the character immune to the strength drain effect.
The Headband of Intellect has a similar interaction with the Intellect Devourer though the wording is different and makes it clear that the creature with the headband can't have their Intelligence reduced to 0.
"Devour Intellect. The intellect devourer targets one creature it can see within 10 feet of it that has a brain. The target must succeed on a DC 12 Intelligence saving throw against this magic or take 11 (2d10) psychic damage. Also on a failure, roll 3d6: If the total equals or exceeds the target’s Intelligence score, that score is reduced to 0. The target is stunned until it regains at least one point of Intelligence."
"Your Intelligence score is 19 while you wear this headband. It has no effect on you if your Intelligence is 19 or higher without it."
Since 3d6 can never exceed the 19 provided by the Headband - the headband prevents the target's intelligence from being reduced to 0. Again, the character's stat score is set to a specific value by the magic item to which effects that affect that stat is compared.
So, ultimately a DM call on how they want to run it but since the d4 strength loss caused by the wight is always countered by the 19 strength from the belt, RAW, I would rule the character immune to that effect the same as a character with the Headband is immune to the Intellect Devourer reducing their intelligence to zero.
The reason i say this is because your Strength is still reduced while the Gaunthlet of Ogre Power makes your Strength score 19 so when it reach 0 you die, thus ending the attunement to them.
The reason i say this is because your Strength is still reduced while the Gauntlets of Ogre Power makes your Strength score 19 so when it reach 0 you die, thus ending the attunement to them.
But your strength never reaches 0 while you have the gauntlets on. It is always at least 19. 19 - 1d4 = 19. 19 - 1,000,000 = 19. Magic make for crazy math sometimes.
While JC may have been expressing how these mechanics were intended to work (RAI), this is another example of him being incorrect about how it actually works as written. David42's interpretation above is much more correct.
Six abilities provide a quick description of every creature's physical and mental characteristics
Each of a creature's abilities has a score, a number that defines the magnitude of that ability.
A creature does not have more than one strength score. The strength score is what it is. While the gauntlets are worn, the creature's strength score is 19. It is not 19 and also something else. It's 19 and that's it. In the scenario in the tweet that was presented to JC, a creature had a strength score of 10 and then he wore the gauntlets which changes his strength score to 19 at that moment. The "10" no longer exists. It is not one of the ability scores. It cannot be changed because there is nothing to change. There is no such thing as the "10" at this point. Sure, it should be jotted down somewhere as a note in the margins of the character sheet just in case the gauntlets are ever taken off, but make no mistake that character's strength score is currently 19 and that's it. When JC says that the 10 becomes a 9, he is wrong. There is no such thing.
It's a DM call as to whether the strength drain would affect the character's unmodified strength score
No. There's not even a DM call involved here. The text is not ambiguous and should simply be applied as written. There is no such thing as the character's unmodified strength score. The score before the change no longer exists. The gauntlets do not modify the strength score. They change it.
The reason i say this is because your Strength is still reduced while the Gauntlets of Ogre Power makes your Strength score 19 so when it reach 0 you die, thus ending the attunement to them.
But your strength never reaches 0 while you have the gauntlets on. It is always at least 19. 19 - 1d4 = 19. 19 - 1,000,000 = 19. Magic make for crazy math sometimes.
They Dev seems to infer it's intended to work that way but as written it might not, only ever having one score in effect instead of needing to track another one adding some complexity.
I also could see the DM ruling either way (or changing the encounter so that the enemies try to get the gauntlets off the hands of a character who would die without them). But I think that, going only by written text for the strength drain feature of the shadow and the text from the gauntlets of ogre power, your strength can never be drained below 19 while you wear the gauntlets, but it should still be tracked for the situation in which they might be removed.
I'm inclined to agree it's RAW that they would not die. The gauntlets don't provide a bonus to the base strength score; they set the strength score. While wearing & attuned to the gauntlets, your strength score never stops being 19, despite whatever may be happening to your base score.
If your base score drops to 0 and the gauntlets are removed, or you stop being attuned to them, you will die instantly.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
So, I know that the dev conversation posted above seems to refer to a "base score" but why do all of you assume that there is such a thing? Characters have a strength score. I cannot find any rules text that would support a character having a "base Strength score" and also an "actual Strength score" at the same time. I don't understand this concept of your Strength score staying at 19 but that somehow some other statistic might be going to zero which would somehow kick in if the gauntlets are removed?
Again, besides the developers saying that it works this way, can anyone provide some rules text that shows that this is happening?
Until that happens, I'm confident that it works like this:
Character has Strength 10. He puts on the gauntlets and now has Strength 19. He gets hit by a strength drain attack for 1 point, resulting in a Strength of 19. He removes the gauntlets and now has a Strength of 10. Quote something that proves this wrong?
Character has Strength 10. He puts on the gauntlets and now has Strength 19. He gets hit by a strength drain attack for 1 point, resulting in a Strength of 19. He removes the gauntlets and now has a Strength of 10. Quote something that proves this wrong?
I agree with your conclusion about this particular situation.
But "base score" is a thing that exists as a matter of record keeping, even if there is no specific rule for it that I can point to in the text. It's important for situations like when you remove the gauntlets, when factoring ASIs while wearing the gauntlets, and even when attempting to multiclass into barbarian or paladin while wearing the gauntlets.
I'm inclined to agree it's RAW that they would not die. The gauntlets don't provide a bonus to the base strength score; they set the strength score. While wearing & attuned to the gauntlets, your strength score never stops being 19, despite whatever may be happening to your base score.
If your base score drops to 0 and the gauntlets are removed, or you stop being attuned to them, you will die instantly.
I think up2ng makes a good point that a character only has one strength score or one of any stat score at a time for that matter. They may have a value their strength might return to when no longer affected by a magic item but there is no indication that effects like the Shadow or the Intellect Devourer would interact in any way with the stat score that the character might have if they did not have the respective magic item. These effects interact with the creatures strength or intelligence score at the value it is set to by a magic item ... which doesn't change ... making creatures with these items equipped immune to stat draining effects on the respective stat.
Basically, a character only has one strength score and game effects can only interact with THAT strength score, not some value the strength score might have if a magic items was removed.
I believe this has been determined on other sites you do die if you base score reaches zero.
It is actually a very scary scenario for those that dump their STR stats once they have an item like this.
I'd have to agree with the other posters that RAW, it doesn't work this way, but a DM is free to house rule it and I have seen DMs commonly apply stat drains to the value the stat would have without the magic item whether that is RAW or not.
However, personally, I think being immune to stat drain effects on the specific stat is actually a nice little perk and not game breaking in the slightest. Characters choosing to use an attunement slot on such an item are getting most of the benefit from the increased stat itself .. being immune to a stat drain attack is just icing for a situation that only rarely comes up.
The red box for "Total Score" represents what your total strength score is at this given moment in time, inclusive of all bonuses & effects. It is currently 19 because of the gauntlets being equipped and attuned.
The green box represents the sum of all bonuses/penalties that affect your base score. This is only broken into multiple lines on the sheet for book keeping purposes, and the whole block is your "Base Score". It looks funky, I know. This character's base strength score is a 16. The strength drain cumulative penalty would be recorded here.
The second red box for "Set Score" is explicitly for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. It has set the total strength score to 19 (unless already >=19), overriding everything else present. No matter what happens in the green box, the total strength score will remain at a 19 so long as the gauntlets are equipped & attuned.
If this character were to have their strength drained by 16 or more points, their total strength score would never drop below 19. However, those drained points are still recorded in the green section as reducing the base score. If this character were to remove or unattune the gauntlets, their total strength score would immediately drop to 0, and they would die.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
No that is not from a D&D character sheet, that's from the DDB character builder.
The fact that the DDB database needs it sorted like that so it can keep all info recorded and then display what is needed depending on a characters choices (equipment, features and such) has no relevance to how the rules says ability scores work.
No that is not from a D&D character sheet, that's from the DDB character builder.
The fact that the DDB database needs it sorted like that so it can keep all info recorded and then display what is needed depending on a characters choices (equipment, features and such) has no relevance to how the rules says ability scores work.
Exactly my thoughts.
To further add to this you must have the BASE score to multi-class which also suggests you do in fact have two scores.
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Hi, fellow DM's.
How would you rule it if a PC has the Gauntlets of Ogre Strength and they are in combat with a creature that has a drain Strength ability.
I see on DnDbeyond if you reduce a characters strength by setting other modifier the stat remains the same as if the drain strength ability had no effect.
What I'm wondering is this. Are magical items that powerful that they ignore the abilities of for example a Shade?
Would it drain the natural strength of the character, or would it drain the current strength due to the gauntlets?
Any feedback, suggestions or form of RAW rule that would explain this would be most welcome.
Strenght drain would drain your character original score, but it would remain 19 while wearring Gaunthlet of Ogre Power.
If it matter to you, it was answered by one of the Devs as well https://www.sageadvice.eu/if-a-character-wearing-gauntlets-of-ogre-power-has-its-str-drained-by-a-shadow/
Going by what a Shadow uses, your strength score is reduced, but the Gauntlets constantly set your strength to 19, leading to apparently funky math like "19 - 1d4 = 19". But if you fight a Shadow, and take the Gauntlets off before Resting, you'll (potentially) die from having 0 strength. Mid-fight, barring some crazy attempt to take the GoOP off you, you can safely ignore the strength drain.
It's not that magic items are that powerful, it's that this particular item directly counters this particular attack. Just like you'd expect a Ring of Poison Immunity to make the wearer immune to poison attacks.
If there is a smart foe behind the Shadows, you could let the player be immune for a few fights, & then have the boss wise up. Tweak a few Shadows to drain Dex or Con instead if you like. It is also fine to leave things as they are, risking the death of the rest of the party by strength drain until the Gauntlet Hero stands alone and falls to overwhelming numbers & the necrotic damage they deal.
Would you die if your score is reduced to zero ?
I'd say you die yeah.
Strictly speaking RAW, probably not.
"Strength Drain. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 9 (2d6 + 2) necrotic damage, and the target's Strength score is reduced by 1d4. The target dies if this reduces its Strength to 0. Otherwise, the reduction lasts until the target finishes a short or long rest."
"Your Strength score is 19 while you wear these gauntlets. They have no effect on you if your Strength is 19 or higher without them."
The gauntlets make the character's strength 19. No matter how many times the Shadow hits them, as long as they are wearing the gauntlets, their strength is 19. It's a DM call as to whether the strength drain would affect the character's unmodified strength score but the wording of the gauntlets is that the characters strength score is 19 so a completely valid interpretation would be that the gauntlets make the character immune to the strength drain effect.
The Headband of Intellect has a similar interaction with the Intellect Devourer though the wording is different and makes it clear that the creature with the headband can't have their Intelligence reduced to 0.
"Devour Intellect. The intellect devourer targets one creature it can see within 10 feet of it that has a brain. The target must succeed on a DC 12 Intelligence saving throw against this magic or take 11 (2d10) psychic damage. Also on a failure, roll 3d6: If the total equals or exceeds the target’s Intelligence score, that score is reduced to 0. The target is stunned until it regains at least one point of Intelligence."
"Your Intelligence score is 19 while you wear this headband. It has no effect on you if your Intelligence is 19 or higher without it."
Since 3d6 can never exceed the 19 provided by the Headband - the headband prevents the target's intelligence from being reduced to 0. Again, the character's stat score is set to a specific value by the magic item to which effects that affect that stat is compared.
So, ultimately a DM call on how they want to run it but since the d4 strength loss caused by the wight is always countered by the 19 strength from the belt, RAW, I would rule the character immune to that effect the same as a character with the Headband is immune to the Intellect Devourer reducing their intelligence to zero.
The reason i say this is because your Strength is still reduced while the Gaunthlet of Ogre Power makes your Strength score 19 so when it reach 0 you die, thus ending the attunement to them.
But your strength never reaches 0 while you have the gauntlets on. It is always at least 19. 19 - 1d4 = 19. 19 - 1,000,000 = 19. Magic make for crazy math sometimes.
While JC may have been expressing how these mechanics were intended to work (RAI), this is another example of him being incorrect about how it actually works as written. David42's interpretation above is much more correct.
A creature does not have more than one strength score. The strength score is what it is. While the gauntlets are worn, the creature's strength score is 19. It is not 19 and also something else. It's 19 and that's it. In the scenario in the tweet that was presented to JC, a creature had a strength score of 10 and then he wore the gauntlets which changes his strength score to 19 at that moment. The "10" no longer exists. It is not one of the ability scores. It cannot be changed because there is nothing to change. There is no such thing as the "10" at this point. Sure, it should be jotted down somewhere as a note in the margins of the character sheet just in case the gauntlets are ever taken off, but make no mistake that character's strength score is currently 19 and that's it. When JC says that the 10 becomes a 9, he is wrong. There is no such thing.
No. There's not even a DM call involved here. The text is not ambiguous and should simply be applied as written. There is no such thing as the character's unmodified strength score. The score before the change no longer exists. The gauntlets do not modify the strength score. They change it.
They Dev seems to infer it's intended to work that way but as written it might not, only ever having one score in effect instead of needing to track another one adding some complexity.
I could see DM rule either way.
I also could see the DM ruling either way (or changing the encounter so that the enemies try to get the gauntlets off the hands of a character who would die without them). But I think that, going only by written text for the strength drain feature of the shadow and the text from the gauntlets of ogre power, your strength can never be drained below 19 while you wear the gauntlets, but it should still be tracked for the situation in which they might be removed.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I'm inclined to agree it's RAW that they would not die. The gauntlets don't provide a bonus to the base strength score; they set the strength score. While wearing & attuned to the gauntlets, your strength score never stops being 19, despite whatever may be happening to your base score.
If your base score drops to 0 and the gauntlets are removed, or you stop being attuned to them, you will die instantly.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I believe this has been determined on other sites you do die if you base score reaches zero.
It is actually a very scary scenario for those that dump their STR stats once they have an item like this.
So, I know that the dev conversation posted above seems to refer to a "base score" but why do all of you assume that there is such a thing? Characters have a strength score. I cannot find any rules text that would support a character having a "base Strength score" and also an "actual Strength score" at the same time. I don't understand this concept of your Strength score staying at 19 but that somehow some other statistic might be going to zero which would somehow kick in if the gauntlets are removed?
Again, besides the developers saying that it works this way, can anyone provide some rules text that shows that this is happening?
Until that happens, I'm confident that it works like this:
Character has Strength 10. He puts on the gauntlets and now has Strength 19. He gets hit by a strength drain attack for 1 point, resulting in a Strength of 19. He removes the gauntlets and now has a Strength of 10. Quote something that proves this wrong?
I agree with your conclusion about this particular situation.
But "base score" is a thing that exists as a matter of record keeping, even if there is no specific rule for it that I can point to in the text. It's important for situations like when you remove the gauntlets, when factoring ASIs while wearing the gauntlets, and even when attempting to multiclass into barbarian or paladin while wearing the gauntlets.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I think up2ng makes a good point that a character only has one strength score or one of any stat score at a time for that matter. They may have a value their strength might return to when no longer affected by a magic item but there is no indication that effects like the Shadow or the Intellect Devourer would interact in any way with the stat score that the character might have if they did not have the respective magic item. These effects interact with the creatures strength or intelligence score at the value it is set to by a magic item ... which doesn't change ... making creatures with these items equipped immune to stat draining effects on the respective stat.
Basically, a character only has one strength score and game effects can only interact with THAT strength score, not some value the strength score might have if a magic items was removed.
I'd have to agree with the other posters that RAW, it doesn't work this way, but a DM is free to house rule it and I have seen DMs commonly apply stat drains to the value the stat would have without the magic item whether that is RAW or not.
However, personally, I think being immune to stat drain effects on the specific stat is actually a nice little perk and not game breaking in the slightest. Characters choosing to use an attunement slot on such an item are getting most of the benefit from the increased stat itself .. being immune to a stat drain attack is just icing for a situation that only rarely comes up.
Image from a 5e character sheet with Gauntlets of Ogre Power equipped.
The red box for "Total Score" represents what your total strength score is at this given moment in time, inclusive of all bonuses & effects. It is currently 19 because of the gauntlets being equipped and attuned.
The green box represents the sum of all bonuses/penalties that affect your base score. This is only broken into multiple lines on the sheet for book keeping purposes, and the whole block is your "Base Score". It looks funky, I know. This character's base strength score is a 16. The strength drain cumulative penalty would be recorded here.
The second red box for "Set Score" is explicitly for the Gauntlets of Ogre Power. It has set the total strength score to 19 (unless already >=19), overriding everything else present. No matter what happens in the green box, the total strength score will remain at a 19 so long as the gauntlets are equipped & attuned.
If this character were to have their strength drained by 16 or more points, their total strength score would never drop below 19. However, those drained points are still recorded in the green section as reducing the base score. If this character were to remove or unattune the gauntlets, their total strength score would immediately drop to 0, and they would die.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
No that is not from a D&D character sheet, that's from the DDB character builder.
The fact that the DDB database needs it sorted like that so it can keep all info recorded and then display what is needed depending on a characters choices (equipment, features and such) has no relevance to how the rules says ability scores work.
Exactly my thoughts.
To further add to this you must have the BASE score to multi-class which also suggests you do in fact have two scores.