The party is in a locked room with a Minotaur who has engaged them in combat. One of the party members notices the Minotaur has a key tied around its neck which he assumes is the key to the locked door and yells this fact to the party. Feeling out of their league fighting the Minotaur the Warlock cast Mage Hand and want to try and 'steal' the key from around the minotaurs neck Just yank it off its leather thong/necklace.
To keep things moving, and to research later, I ruled he could use Sleight of Hand to grab the key. I explained that if the Warlock failed the first attempt the second would be at a disadvantage since this was the middle of combat and the Hand would be noticeable to the Minotaur.
The Warlock failed both attempts.
Question:
Post-game I thought more about this attempt and felt if the character was an Arcane Trickster using Mage Hand Legerdemain that would have been the correct ruling but with the Warlock, I am no longer sure.
I ruled the way I did as felt this was not an attack more so that the Hand was "manipulate an object" but this could have been where my reasoning failed. This was definitely outside grapple rules and the Disarming optional rules from the DMG is clear that action is considered an attack.
So here I am asking the question "Using Mage Hand could a character grab something off a person in combat? Is it considered an attack/no attack or some other type of attempt?"
There is nothing the prevents players from attempting skill checks in combat, so the only real question is can it be done with Mage Hand. I don't think it is possible by RAW because the Mage Hand Legerdemain ability grants the Arcane Trickster the "additional task" that they can do with the spell which implies that it couldn't be done otherwise.
That being said, I would have ruled it pretty much the same way. It isn't really an attack because it doesn't do anything that an attack would do such as Damage, Shoving or Grappling. Making it a skill check seems like a fair call to me.
The standard mage hand can only carry 10 pounds, although it can open an unlocked door. Will this hand have the strength to break the leather thong/necklace that the key is hanging from?
The standard mage hand can only carry 10 pounds, although it can open an unlocked door. Will this hand have the strength to break the leather thong/necklace that the key is hanging from?
That is something I did think about at the time saying that Mage Hand has a commoner level strength, 10 STR, and if the Sleight of Hand was successful then a strength check by the Hand to see if it breaks the thong free. Since both attempts failed I never got to that point but it was definitely not raw and I was getting into unknown territory so I was making it up as I went along.
The standard mage hand can only carry 10 pounds, although it can open an unlocked door. Will this hand have the strength to break the leather thong/necklace that the key is hanging from?
That is something I did think about at the time saying that Mage Hand has a commoner level strength, 10 STR
A mage hand's STR is probably closer to 1. Someone with a STR of 10 can carry a lot more than 10 lbs
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A regular Mage Hand isn't invisible, so wouldn't be able to approach the creature without being noticed. And even the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is only allowed to remove an item from a container being worn by a creature. A leather thong isn't a container. It also can't be used to disarm someone of their weapon (although you could use it to remove arrows from a quiver or darts from a pouch.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
The standard mage hand can only carry 10 pounds, although it can open an unlocked door. Will this hand have the strength to break the leather thong/necklace that the key is hanging from?
That is something I did think about at the time saying that Mage Hand has a commoner level strength, 10 STR
A mage hand's STR is probably closer to 1. Someone with a STR of 10 can carry a lot more than 10 lbs
It would be an interesting discussion on what would be the stat(s) for Mage Hand I would not say a 1 but strong enough that it can "open an unlocked door".
I don't think slight of hand is the right skill for breaking a key off a strap anyway.
With some thought, it sounds like it should be a strength check to break the material (DC11-13 range), given that it is a spell effect I'd have them roll their spellcasting ability instead of strength, and since the spell has notably weak strength equivalent to -5 I'd add that to the DC.
Conclusion: spellcasting ability check against DC16. Or at least that is what I'd decide. It is really an "up to DM" situation, and you were the DM.
A regular Mage Hand isn't invisible, so wouldn't be able to approach the creature without being noticed. And even the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is only allowed to remove an item from a container being worn by a creature. A leather thong isn't a container. It also can't be used to disarm someone of their weapon (although you could use it to remove arrows from a quiver or darts from a pouch.)
yeah, I never indicated that it was invisible but that is valid to point out I took into account that the first attempt would be a sort of a 'surprise' (not RAW combat surprise but 'Suprise! What the heck is that?') which is why where was no penalities on the first attempt but there was on the second.
Also, a Mage Hand can "open an unlocked door" and "manipulate an object" so it can do more and has the 'strength' for other activities more than just being a magic claw.
I don't think slight of hand is the right skill for breaking a key off a strap anyway.
With some thought, it sounds like it should be a strength check to break the material (DC11-13 range), given that it is a spell effect I'd have them roll their spellcasting ability instead of strength, and since the spell has notably weak strength equivalent to -5 I'd add that to the DC.
Conclusion: spellcasting ability check against DC16. Or at least that is what I'd decide. It is really an "up to DM" situation, and you were the DM.
I like that point of view and it makes a lot more sense thinking it through like that. Thanks!
I think you ruled just fine. It might not be RAW but a good call in the midst of gameplay. Now that it is done with, if you feel an adjustment needs to be made it can be adjusted if something like this comes up again.
Also maybe it could have been lifted off, over the head of the Minotaur?
You could also do a straight dexterity check if you didn’t want skill proficiencies involved for non-Arcane Tricksters.
A regular Mage Hand isn't invisible, so wouldn't be able to approach the creature without being noticed. And even the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is only allowed to remove an item from a container being worn by a creature. A leather thong isn't a container. It also can't be used to disarm someone of their weapon (although you could use it to remove arrows from a quiver or darts from a pouch.)
yeah, I never indicated that it was invisible but that is valid to point out I took into account that the first attempt would be a sort of a 'surprise' (not RAW combat surprise but 'Suprise! What the heck is that?') which is why where was no penalities on the first attempt but there was on the second.
Also, a Mage Hand can "open an unlocked door" and "manipulate an object" so it can do more and has the 'strength' for other activities more than just being a magic claw.
Basically "pick pocket" (container) not "cut purse" snapping off a leather thong. Outside of combat, say while the minotaur was sleeping, I'd probably allow an effort to untie the thong and retrieve the key, but mage hand legerman or however you spell it is not mage hand combat leatherman tool in my game. And as you said, we're talking about a non arcane trickster who's working a utility cantrip, so definitely not going to go that far with the license.
Now I could envision some sort of "snatch" spell homebrewed, but it's gonna cost a slot and allow some sort of save by the victim to keep the item on their person.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think you handled this just fine. Only thing you didn't mention, that I've used before, is a contested skill check. (ie., Sleight of Hand v. Perception) And while the vanilla mage hand can't manipulate more than 10lbs., it should be able to try to snatch something from a creature/untie a knot.
I consider Mage Hand use during combat to be a skill check attempt, regardless of PC type using it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I think you handled this just fine. Only thing you didn't mention, that I've used before, is a contested skill check. (ie., Sleight of Hand v. Perception) And while the vanilla mage hand can't manipulate more than 10lbs., it should be able to try to snatch something from a creature/untie a knot.
I consider Mage Hand use during combat to be a skill check attempt, regardless of PC type using it.
This is where it got kludgy as the first time I used the Minotaurs Passive Perception-- logic was the creature was focused on another character with his back turned to the warlock (yeah, I know about the 360 RAW)-- so it was not expecting it but on the second attempt I would have made a Perception check against the sleight-of-hand if the Warlock had not failed.
A regular Mage Hand isn't invisible, so wouldn't be able to approach the creature without being noticed. And even the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is only allowed to remove an item from a container being worn by a creature. A leather thong isn't a container. It also can't be used to disarm someone of their weapon (although you could use it to remove arrows from a quiver or darts from a pouch.)
yeah, I never indicated that it was invisible but that is valid to point out I took into account that the first attempt would be a sort of a 'surprise' (not RAW combat surprise but 'Suprise! What the heck is that?') which is why where was no penalities on the first attempt but there was on the second.
Also, a Mage Hand can "open an unlocked door" and "manipulate an object" so it can do more and has the 'strength' for other activities more than just being a magic claw.
Basically "pick pocket" (container) not "cut purse" snapping off a leather thong. Outside of combat, say while the minotaur was sleeping, I'd probably allow an effort to untie the thong and retrieve the key, but mage hand legerman or however you spell it is not mage hand combat leatherman tool in my game. And as you said, we're talking about a non arcane trickster who's working a utility cantrip, so definitely not going to go that far with the license.
Now I could envision some sort of "snatch" spell homebrewed, but it's gonna cost a slot and allow some sort of save by the victim to keep the item on their person.
Valid point. That was why I asked for a second opinion regarding this situation to try and understand the 'mechanics' behind what it would take to accomplish this task.
I think you ruled just fine. It might not be RAW but a good call in the midst of gameplay. Now that it is done with, if you feel an adjustment needs to be made it can be adjusted if something like this comes up again.
Also maybe it could have been lifted off, over the head of the Minotaur?
You could also do a straight dexterity check if you didn’t want skill proficiencies involved for non-Arcane Tricksters.
The Warlock was specific that he wanted to 'rip' the thong/key off his neck otherwise I would not have allowed it to lift it from around the Minotaur head.
(That would have been made from a really, really long piece of material to get it around the horns.)
Relevant but slightly off topic question. Can Mage Hand use a basic tool like scissors or a knife? I don't think fine manipulation is viable for picking locks and such, but "manipulate an object" is fairly vague.
Relevant but slightly off topic question. Can Mage Hand use a basic tool like scissors or a knife? I don't think fine manipulation is viable for picking locks and such, but "manipulate an object" is fairly vague.
Clumsily, but I'd say yes. Doing something with mage hand is probably a little more difficult than trying to do something with your off hand (i.e. your left hand if you're a righty), because it's also at a distance and not actually attached to you
Put it this way - a wizard chef would use mage hand to hold the carrot they're chopping, but not hold the carrot with their real hand and chop with mage hand unless they didn't like their fingers
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Relevant but slightly off topic question. Can Mage Hand use a basic tool like scissors or a knife? I don't think fine manipulation is viable for picking locks and such, but "manipulate an object" is fairly vague.
Clumsily, but I'd say yes. Doing something with mage hand is probably a little more difficult than trying to do something with your off hand (i.e. your left hand if you're a righty), because it's also at a distance and not actually attached to you
Put it this way - a wizard chef would use mage hand to hold the carrot they're chopping, but not hold the carrot with their real hand and chop with mage hand unless they didn't like their fingers
Ok, so let's put this more into game terms. Say my character has the Telekinetic Feat and is proficient in sewing/tailoring and has the tools. She wants to use the scissors from her tools with her invisible Mage Hand to cut the leather thong holding the key. How would you rule that?
Relevant but slightly off topic question. Can Mage Hand use a basic tool like scissors or a knife? I don't think fine manipulation is viable for picking locks and such, but "manipulate an object" is fairly vague.
Clumsily, but I'd say yes. Doing something with mage hand is probably a little more difficult than trying to do something with your off hand (i.e. your left hand if you're a righty), because it's also at a distance and not actually attached to you
Put it this way - a wizard chef would use mage hand to hold the carrot they're chopping, but not hold the carrot with their real hand and chop with mage hand unless they didn't like their fingers
Ok, so let's put this more into game terms. Say my character has the Telekinetic Feat and is proficient in sewing/tailoring and has the tools. She wants to use the scissors from her tools with her invisible Mage Hand to cut the leather thong holding the key. How would you rule that?
Still a skill check with the applicable kit, but maybe with disadvantage. Arcane Trickster's wouldn't suffer disadvantage, due to Ledgerdemain.
As for your previous question, I would suggest that the same applies to knives, scissors, or even lock manipulation by an untrained/unskilled user.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Setup:
The party is in a locked room with a Minotaur who has engaged them in combat. One of the party members notices the Minotaur has a key tied around its neck which he assumes is the key to the locked door and yells this fact to the party. Feeling out of their league fighting the Minotaur the Warlock cast Mage Hand and want to try and 'steal' the key from around the minotaurs neck Just yank it off its leather thong/necklace.
To keep things moving, and to research later, I ruled he could use Sleight of Hand to grab the key. I explained that if the Warlock failed the first attempt the second would be at a disadvantage since this was the middle of combat and the Hand would be noticeable to the Minotaur.
The Warlock failed both attempts.
Question:
Post-game I thought more about this attempt and felt if the character was an Arcane Trickster using Mage Hand Legerdemain that would have been the correct ruling but with the Warlock, I am no longer sure.
I ruled the way I did as felt this was not an attack more so that the Hand was "manipulate an object" but this could have been where my reasoning failed. This was definitely outside grapple rules and the Disarming optional rules from the DMG is clear that action is considered an attack.
So here I am asking the question "Using Mage Hand could a character grab something off a person in combat? Is it considered an attack/no attack or some other type of attempt?"
There is nothing the prevents players from attempting skill checks in combat, so the only real question is can it be done with Mage Hand. I don't think it is possible by RAW because the Mage Hand Legerdemain ability grants the Arcane Trickster the "additional task" that they can do with the spell which implies that it couldn't be done otherwise.
That being said, I would have ruled it pretty much the same way. It isn't really an attack because it doesn't do anything that an attack would do such as Damage, Shoving or Grappling. Making it a skill check seems like a fair call to me.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The standard mage hand can only carry 10 pounds, although it can open an unlocked door. Will this hand have the strength to break the leather thong/necklace that the key is hanging from?
That is something I did think about at the time saying that Mage Hand has a commoner level strength, 10 STR, and if the Sleight of Hand was successful then a strength check by the Hand to see if it breaks the thong free. Since both attempts failed I never got to that point but it was definitely not raw and I was getting into unknown territory so I was making it up as I went along.
A mage hand's STR is probably closer to 1. Someone with a STR of 10 can carry a lot more than 10 lbs
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A regular Mage Hand isn't invisible, so wouldn't be able to approach the creature without being noticed. And even the Arcane Trickster's Mage Hand is only allowed to remove an item from a container being worn by a creature. A leather thong isn't a container. It also can't be used to disarm someone of their weapon (although you could use it to remove arrows from a quiver or darts from a pouch.)
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
It would be an interesting discussion on what would be the stat(s) for Mage Hand I would not say a 1 but strong enough that it can "open an unlocked door".
I don't think slight of hand is the right skill for breaking a key off a strap anyway.
With some thought, it sounds like it should be a strength check to break the material (DC11-13 range), given that it is a spell effect I'd have them roll their spellcasting ability instead of strength, and since the spell has notably weak strength equivalent to -5 I'd add that to the DC.
Conclusion: spellcasting ability check against DC16. Or at least that is what I'd decide. It is really an "up to DM" situation, and you were the DM.
yeah, I never indicated that it was invisible but that is valid to point out I took into account that the first attempt would be a sort of a 'surprise' (not RAW combat surprise but 'Suprise! What the heck is that?') which is why where was no penalities on the first attempt but there was on the second.
Also, a Mage Hand can "open an unlocked door" and "manipulate an object" so it can do more and has the 'strength' for other activities more than just being a magic claw.
I like that point of view and it makes a lot more sense thinking it through like that. Thanks!
I think you ruled just fine. It might not be RAW but a good call in the midst of gameplay. Now that it is done with, if you feel an adjustment needs to be made it can be adjusted if something like this comes up again.
Also maybe it could have been lifted off, over the head of the Minotaur?
You could also do a straight dexterity check if you didn’t want skill proficiencies involved for non-Arcane Tricksters.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Basically "pick pocket" (container) not "cut purse" snapping off a leather thong. Outside of combat, say while the minotaur was sleeping, I'd probably allow an effort to untie the thong and retrieve the key, but mage hand legerman or however you spell it is not mage hand combat leatherman tool in my game. And as you said, we're talking about a non arcane trickster who's working a utility cantrip, so definitely not going to go that far with the license.
Now I could envision some sort of "snatch" spell homebrewed, but it's gonna cost a slot and allow some sort of save by the victim to keep the item on their person.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think you handled this just fine. Only thing you didn't mention, that I've used before, is a contested skill check. (ie., Sleight of Hand v. Perception) And while the vanilla mage hand can't manipulate more than 10lbs., it should be able to try to snatch something from a creature/untie a knot.
I consider Mage Hand use during combat to be a skill check attempt, regardless of PC type using it.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
This is where it got kludgy as the first time I used the Minotaurs Passive Perception-- logic was the creature was focused on another character with his back turned to the warlock (yeah, I know about the 360 RAW)-- so it was not expecting it but on the second attempt I would have made a Perception check against the sleight-of-hand if the Warlock had not failed.
Valid point. That was why I asked for a second opinion regarding this situation to try and understand the 'mechanics' behind what it would take to accomplish this task.
The Warlock was specific that he wanted to 'rip' the thong/key off his neck otherwise I would not have allowed it to lift it from around the Minotaur head.
(That would have been made from a really, really long piece of material to get it around the horns.)
Relevant but slightly off topic question. Can Mage Hand use a basic tool like scissors or a knife? I don't think fine manipulation is viable for picking locks and such, but "manipulate an object" is fairly vague.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Clumsily, but I'd say yes. Doing something with mage hand is probably a little more difficult than trying to do something with your off hand (i.e. your left hand if you're a righty), because it's also at a distance and not actually attached to you
Put it this way - a wizard chef would use mage hand to hold the carrot they're chopping, but not hold the carrot with their real hand and chop with mage hand unless they didn't like their fingers
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok, so let's put this more into game terms. Say my character has the Telekinetic Feat and is proficient in sewing/tailoring and has the tools. She wants to use the scissors from her tools with her invisible Mage Hand to cut the leather thong holding the key. How would you rule that?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Still a skill check with the applicable kit, but maybe with disadvantage. Arcane Trickster's wouldn't suffer disadvantage, due to Ledgerdemain.
As for your previous question, I would suggest that the same applies to knives, scissors, or even lock manipulation by an untrained/unskilled user.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad