So, the following has never been expressly ruled one way or the other by WoTC (I've looked everywhere), but basically when a creature uses one or more legendary actions to Cast a Spell, I've been interpreting it to mean the spell's normal casting time is ignored. "A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions–called legendary actions–outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn." Since no spell in 5e has a casting time of 1 legendary action, whatever the spell's normal casting time is, it becomes 1 legendary action. Meaning a legendary monster can cast a spell that normally has a different casting time than 1 action as a legendary action, unless the action specifically limits the creature from doing so. Compare the legendary action Cast a Spell between the Molydeus and the Lord of Blades.
Molydeus: Cast a Spell. The molydeus casts one spell from its Innate Spellcasting trait.
The Lord of Blades: Cast a Spell (Costs 2 Actions). The Lord of Blades casts a spell of 2nd level or lower from his spell list that takes 1 action to cast.
This is significant, because the Molydeus can cast imprisonment 1/Day, which would normally take 1 minute to cast. I assume this to be a "specific beats general" situation, for 1 legendary action, the Molydeus casts one spell from its Innate Spellcasting trait. Imprisonment is a spell from its Innate Spellcasting, ergo, the Molydeus can cast imprisonment as a legendary action (bypassing the spell's usual casting time of 1 minute). There is no restricting clause on spell level or casting time, so the Molydeus is essentially unrestricted on which spell it can cast using a legendary action.
Compare this to the Lord of Blades, who has both expeditious retreat and sanctuary prepared. Two spells lower than 2nd-level, but which take 1 bonus action to cast, so he can't use a legendary action to cast them. The LoB's Cast a Spell legendary action has specific restrictions (both on spell level and casting time). Altogether, I take this to mean that in the same way certain magic items can bypass a spell's normal casting time, legendary actions do this as well by default. Spells that normally take longer than 1 action to cast have their casting time compressed to a "legendary action," or essentially instantly.
I'm not really sure what is intended here. But, with a quick scan of legendary creatures, I think that before you get to about CR 17, only a few sphinxes can cast spells as legendary actions that might have a casting time of more than one action -- some lower CR sphinxes get legend lore and identify (I may have missed some, it was a cursory scan with DDB). Because of the high CR of the creatures that have access to this ability (and the non-combat nature of the long cast time spells that lower CR creatures have), I would allow a creature to use a legendary action to cast these long cast time spells.
Players at a comparable level (ignoring the lower CR sphinxes with their non-combat spells) might have access to wish, which would allow them to cast long casting time spells in a single action.
Just a PSA, since some people do think "legendary action" means "cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action." The Molydeus's ability to cast imprisonment as a legendary action (instead of the normal 1 minute casting time) is part of the monster's huge threat against higher-level PCs. The ability to more-or-less permanently take a PC out of the fight (no concentration required) barring a 9th-level dispel magic is exceedingly potent. Ignoring this powerful tool in the monster's stat block because it seems like a non-combat spell otherwise is a mistake, reducing the monster's threat level.
I would argue that neither the molydeus's innate spell casting nor its legendary actions specifically over rule the general longer casting times rules, so they don't.
I would argue that neither the molydeus's innate spell casting nor its legendary actions specifically over rule the general longer casting times rules, so they don't.
But, the wording of the legendary action specifically does say so. The molydeus can use a legendary action to cast "one spell from its Innate Spellcasting trait," and listed among those spells is the imprisonment spell. This is the exact same wording as the Staff of the Woodlands, that allows the wielder to bypass awaken's casting time (as confirmed by Jeremy Crawford on Twitter). Spells. "You can use an action to expend 1 or more of the staff's charges to cast one of the following spells from it, using your spell save DC:... awaken (5 charges)."
The only difference here is the molydeus can use a legendary action to cast one of the spells in its innate spellcasting trait, while the Staff of the Woodlands says the wielder can use an action to cast "one of the following spells" from the listed spells in the staff, including awaken (normal casting time, 8 hours).
That JC tweet is not in the SAC which means it is not an official ruling. The rules as written say when you cast a spell with a longer casting time, you must spend multiple actions and concentration casting it. Neither the molydeus nor the staff of the woodlands have wording that specifically bypasses it. That is my interpretation anyway, unless I see something official to change my mind.
That JC tweet is not in the SAC which means it is not an official ruling. The rules as written say when you cast a spell with a longer casting time, you must spend multiple actions and concentration casting it. Neither the molydeus nor the staff of the woodlands have wording that specifically bypasses it. That is my interpretation anyway, unless I see something official to change my mind.
What does "You can use an action to expend 1 or more of the staff's charges to cast one of the following spells from it" mean then? that you use your action to expend the charges then the next action to start the spell? I don't think that is how most people would use that staff to cast, for example, wall of thorns in combat.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
This seems like a reasonable interpretation (probably better than mine) because the legendary action that allows the molydeus to cast doesn't say that it changes the casting time.
If casting a spell as a Legendary Action didn't change the casting time of a spell, then you couldn't cast any spells with a legendary action at all. Legendary creatures don't gain an extra action when they use a legendary action. Legendary actions are special, and distinct from normal actions and exist outsize the normal action-economy (action, bonus action, reaction, et cetera).
"A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions–called legendary actions–outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn." MM, page 12.
To put it another way: there aren't any spells in 5e that have a casting time of "1 legendary action." Legendary creatures don't have additional actions to cast their spells, they have legendary action options they can take at the end of another creature's turn. The specific rule of the legendary action option trumps the general rule of the spell's casting time. Remember, wish's specific casting time of 1 action supersedes the casting time of any spell it duplicates. Whatever game effect casts the spell (such as wish, or in this case, a legendary action option) dictates what is required to cast the spell.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
This seems like a reasonable interpretation (probably better than mine) because the legendary action that allows the molydeus to cast doesn't say that it changes the casting time.
It has to change the casting time to allow any spell to be cast as a Legendary Action rather than as an Action.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
This seems like a reasonable interpretation (probably better than mine) because the legendary action that allows the molydeus to cast doesn't say that it changes the casting time.
It has to change the casting time to allow any spell to be cast as a Legendary Action rather than as an Action.
No, not actually. There are two incompatible interpretations (and again, I'm not sure which is correct). One is that the Legendary Action simply allows you to use "cast a spell" action. If that is the case, then no, it doesn't have to change the casting time of the spells in the innate spellcasting list. The other interpretation is that the "Cast a Spell" Legendary Action allows you to cast the spell as a legendary action rather than as its regular casting time. I don't really know how you can be so completely sure that it is exactly one way with the tiny amount of text given on the subject.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
This seems like a reasonable interpretation (probably better than mine) because the legendary action that allows the molydeus to cast doesn't say that it changes the casting time.
It has to change the casting time to allow any spell to be cast as a Legendary Action rather than as an Action.
No, not actually. There are two incompatible interpretations (and again, I'm not sure which is correct). One is that the Legendary Action simply allows you to use "cast a spell" action. If that is the case, then no, it doesn't have to change the casting time of the spells in the innate spellcasting list. The other interpretation is that the "Cast a Spell" Legendary Action allows you to cast the spell as a legendary action rather than as its regular casting time. I don't really know how you can be so completely sure that it is exactly one way with the tiny amount of text given on the subject.
Because the "Cast a Spell" action is still beholden to the normal casting time of a spell. If the Legendary Action simply allows you to take the "cast a spell" action as a Legendary Action without changing the cast time of the spell in question, you can "cast a spell" in theory, but there is no spell in any published material that you can actually cast, because ever spell's cast time is an Action, a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or some longer cast time, none of which you have available to you when you take Legendary Actions.
I feel like I have to make it really clear that the italics are just for emphasis, not because I'm crazy. I know there are a lot of them.
[EDIT] Have to mea culpa for composing too quickly, you do have a Reaction if a valid trigger allows it.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
This seems like a reasonable interpretation (probably better than mine) because the legendary action that allows the molydeus to cast doesn't say that it changes the casting time.
It has to change the casting time to allow any spell to be cast as a Legendary Action rather than as an Action.
No, not actually. There are two competing interpretations (and again, I'm not sure which is correct). One is that the Legendary Action simply allows you to use "cast a spell" action. If that is the case, then no, it doesn't have to change the casting time of the spells in the innate spellcasting list. The other interpretation is that the "Cast a Spell" Legendary Action allows you to cast the spell as a legendary action rather than as its regular casting time. I don't really know how you can be so completely sure that it is exactly one way with the tiny amount of text given on the subject.
Because a Legendary Action ≠ an extra action that the legendary creature takes. Actions and Legendary Actions are two distinct things. No spell in 5e has a casting time of "1 legendary action," which is exactly the action a legendary creature takes when it casts any spell, regardless of casting time. The spell's casting time must become 1 (or however many) legendary action(s) because the legendary creature isn't taking an action, it's taking a legendary action. Taking an action (not a legendary action) outside your turn isn't possible, you can only use your reaction. Even taking the Ready action on your turn still uses your reaction when the trigger occurs. Actions and legendary actions are clearly distinct.
A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions–called legendary actions–outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn." Monster Manual, page 12.
I don't know what the "official" ruling should be, but a Legendary Action falls out side the normal Action economy and allows for Legendary creatures to do Legendary things that others would not be able to do. Casting a spell instantly, when that spell would normally take a regular caster longer to cast, is a Legendary feat befitting a creature of Legend.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
My response is that if "the casting time still applies," Molydeus can't cast a spell with a casting time of one Action either, because Molydeus doesn't have an Action to cast it with. The cast a spell action does not substitute for a spell's casting time; it's not an "action" in the sense that it takes your Action; it takes whatever time the spell's cast time is. If the cast time is one Action, then casting the spell requires an Action. Legendary Actions do not give creatures any extra Actions the way Action Surge does. If Legendary Actions can't be used to cast one minute spells, they can't be used to cast one action spells either.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that this interpretation isn't supported by the text. I think, in a vacuum, it's very reasonable to interpret it this way. But if we step outside the vacuum, we realize that such an interpretation makes the feature entirely useless, unless the feature actually allows the casting of a spell with a Legendary Action instead of the normal cast time.
What makes you think I haven't thought about this?
I'm just out of this discussion. I can already see where this is going. The rules are too unclear (aka poorly written) for me to convince those who oppose my views that I am correct. And I suspect my opposition will have the same problem.
I don't think it is intended for the molydeus to be able to permanantly banish a PC between turns, pending a DC 22 WIS save. CR 21 or not.
I'm just out of this discussion. I can already see where this is going. The rules are too unclear (aka poorly written) for me to convince those who oppose my views that I am correct. And I suspect my opposition will have the same problem.
I don't think it is intended for the molydeus to be able to permanantly banish a PC between turns, pending a DC 22 WIS save. CR 21 or not.
Luckily, this specific issue is really kind of limited. There are plenty of other rules issues that arise on the regular so this one is not really that big of a deal. imho
So, the following has never been expressly ruled one way or the other by WoTC (I've looked everywhere), but basically when a creature uses one or more legendary actions to Cast a Spell, I've been interpreting it to mean the spell's normal casting time is ignored. "A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions–called legendary actions–outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn." Since no spell in 5e has a casting time of 1 legendary action, whatever the spell's normal casting time is, it becomes 1 legendary action. Meaning a legendary monster can cast a spell that normally has a different casting time than 1 action as a legendary action, unless the action specifically limits the creature from doing so. Compare the legendary action Cast a Spell between the Molydeus and the Lord of Blades.
Molydeus: Cast a Spell. The molydeus casts one spell from its Innate Spellcasting trait.
The Lord of Blades: Cast a Spell (Costs 2 Actions). The Lord of Blades casts a spell of 2nd level or lower from his spell list that takes 1 action to cast.
This is significant, because the Molydeus can cast imprisonment 1/Day, which would normally take 1 minute to cast. I assume this to be a "specific beats general" situation, for 1 legendary action, the Molydeus casts one spell from its Innate Spellcasting trait. Imprisonment is a spell from its Innate Spellcasting, ergo, the Molydeus can cast imprisonment as a legendary action (bypassing the spell's usual casting time of 1 minute). There is no restricting clause on spell level or casting time, so the Molydeus is essentially unrestricted on which spell it can cast using a legendary action.
Compare this to the Lord of Blades, who has both expeditious retreat and sanctuary prepared. Two spells lower than 2nd-level, but which take 1 bonus action to cast, so he can't use a legendary action to cast them. The LoB's Cast a Spell legendary action has specific restrictions (both on spell level and casting time). Altogether, I take this to mean that in the same way certain magic items can bypass a spell's normal casting time, legendary actions do this as well by default. Spells that normally take longer than 1 action to cast have their casting time compressed to a "legendary action," or essentially instantly.
I'm not really sure what is intended here. But, with a quick scan of legendary creatures, I think that before you get to about CR 17, only a few sphinxes can cast spells as legendary actions that might have a casting time of more than one action -- some lower CR sphinxes get legend lore and identify (I may have missed some, it was a cursory scan with DDB). Because of the high CR of the creatures that have access to this ability (and the non-combat nature of the long cast time spells that lower CR creatures have), I would allow a creature to use a legendary action to cast these long cast time spells.
Players at a comparable level (ignoring the lower CR sphinxes with their non-combat spells) might have access to wish, which would allow them to cast long casting time spells in a single action.
Just a PSA, since some people do think "legendary action" means "cast a spell with a casting time of 1 action." The Molydeus's ability to cast imprisonment as a legendary action (instead of the normal 1 minute casting time) is part of the monster's huge threat against higher-level PCs. The ability to more-or-less permanently take a PC out of the fight (no concentration required) barring a 9th-level dispel magic is exceedingly potent. Ignoring this powerful tool in the monster's stat block because it seems like a non-combat spell otherwise is a mistake, reducing the monster's threat level.
I would argue that neither the molydeus's innate spell casting nor its legendary actions specifically over rule the general longer casting times rules, so they don't.
But, the wording of the legendary action specifically does say so. The molydeus can use a legendary action to cast "one spell from its Innate Spellcasting trait," and listed among those spells is the imprisonment spell. This is the exact same wording as the Staff of the Woodlands, that allows the wielder to bypass awaken's casting time (as confirmed by Jeremy Crawford on Twitter). Spells. "You can use an action to expend 1 or more of the staff's charges to cast one of the following spells from it, using your spell save DC:... awaken (5 charges)."
The only difference here is the molydeus can use a legendary action to cast one of the spells in its innate spellcasting trait, while the Staff of the Woodlands says the wielder can use an action to cast "one of the following spells" from the listed spells in the staff, including awaken (normal casting time, 8 hours).
That JC tweet is not in the SAC which means it is not an official ruling. The rules as written say when you cast a spell with a longer casting time, you must spend multiple actions and concentration casting it. Neither the molydeus nor the staff of the woodlands have wording that specifically bypasses it. That is my interpretation anyway, unless I see something official to change my mind.
What does "You can use an action to expend 1 or more of the staff's charges to cast one of the following spells from it" mean then? that you use your action to expend the charges then the next action to start the spell? I don't think that is how most people would use that staff to cast, for example, wall of thorns in combat.
My reading: As a legendary action, Molydeus can take the cast a spell action out of turn. Since the casting time of the spell is longer than an action, then the creature may begin the process of casting the spell out of turn using its legendary action. The casting time still applies.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This seems like a reasonable interpretation (probably better than mine) because the legendary action that allows the molydeus to cast doesn't say that it changes the casting time.
If casting a spell as a Legendary Action didn't change the casting time of a spell, then you couldn't cast any spells with a legendary action at all. Legendary creatures don't gain an extra action when they use a legendary action. Legendary actions are special, and distinct from normal actions and exist outsize the normal action-economy (action, bonus action, reaction, et cetera).
"A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions–called legendary actions–outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn." MM, page 12.
To put it another way: there aren't any spells in 5e that have a casting time of "1 legendary action." Legendary creatures don't have additional actions to cast their spells, they have legendary action options they can take at the end of another creature's turn. The specific rule of the legendary action option trumps the general rule of the spell's casting time. Remember, wish's specific casting time of 1 action supersedes the casting time of any spell it duplicates. Whatever game effect casts the spell (such as wish, or in this case, a legendary action option) dictates what is required to cast the spell.
It has to change the casting time to allow any spell to be cast as a Legendary Action rather than as an Action.
No, not actually. There are two incompatible interpretations (and again, I'm not sure which is correct). One is that the Legendary Action simply allows you to use "cast a spell" action. If that is the case, then no, it doesn't have to change the casting time of the spells in the innate spellcasting list. The other interpretation is that the "Cast a Spell" Legendary Action allows you to cast the spell as a legendary action rather than as its regular casting time. I don't really know how you can be so completely sure that it is exactly one way with the tiny amount of text given on the subject.
Because the "Cast a Spell" action is still beholden to the normal casting time of a spell. If the Legendary Action simply allows you to take the "cast a spell" action as a Legendary Action without changing the cast time of the spell in question, you can "cast a spell" in theory, but there is no spell in any published material that you can actually cast, because ever spell's cast time is an Action, a Bonus Action, a Reaction, or some longer cast time, none of which you have available to you when you take Legendary Actions.
I feel like I have to make it really clear that the italics are just for emphasis, not because I'm crazy. I know there are a lot of them.
[EDIT] Have to mea culpa for composing too quickly, you do have a Reaction if a valid trigger allows it.
Because a Legendary Action ≠ an extra action that the legendary creature takes. Actions and Legendary Actions are two distinct things. No spell in 5e has a casting time of "1 legendary action," which is exactly the action a legendary creature takes when it casts any spell, regardless of casting time. The spell's casting time must become 1 (or however many) legendary action(s) because the legendary creature isn't taking an action, it's taking a legendary action. Taking an action (not a legendary action) outside your turn isn't possible, you can only use your reaction. Even taking the Ready action on your turn still uses your reaction when the trigger occurs. Actions and legendary actions are clearly distinct.
A legendary creature can take a certain number of special actions–called legendary actions–outside its turn. Only one legendary action option can be used at a time and only at the end of another creature's turn." Monster Manual, page 12.
Ok, well, if you aren't going to think about the other argument then I'm not going to continue argue for it. Like I said, I'm not sure.
I don't know what the "official" ruling should be, but a Legendary Action falls out side the normal Action economy and allows for Legendary creatures to do Legendary things that others would not be able to do. Casting a spell instantly, when that spell would normally take a regular caster longer to cast, is a Legendary feat befitting a creature of Legend.
That is my take on it. (I agree with SagaTympana)
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
I have thought about the other argument; I have no idea why you would think otherwise. Here's what TexasDevin said:
My response is that if "the casting time still applies," Molydeus can't cast a spell with a casting time of one Action either, because Molydeus doesn't have an Action to cast it with. The cast a spell action does not substitute for a spell's casting time; it's not an "action" in the sense that it takes your Action; it takes whatever time the spell's cast time is. If the cast time is one Action, then casting the spell requires an Action. Legendary Actions do not give creatures any extra Actions the way Action Surge does. If Legendary Actions can't be used to cast one minute spells, they can't be used to cast one action spells either.
To be clear, I'm not arguing that this interpretation isn't supported by the text. I think, in a vacuum, it's very reasonable to interpret it this way. But if we step outside the vacuum, we realize that such an interpretation makes the feature entirely useless, unless the feature actually allows the casting of a spell with a Legendary Action instead of the normal cast time.
What makes you think I haven't thought about this?
I'm just out of this discussion. I can already see where this is going. The rules are too unclear (aka poorly written) for me to convince those who oppose my views that I am correct. And I suspect my opposition will have the same problem.
I don't think it is intended for the molydeus to be able to permanantly banish a PC between turns, pending a DC 22 WIS save. CR 21 or not.
DxJxC, I think you are right on the rules being unclear.
Luckily, this specific issue is really kind of limited. There are plenty of other rules issues that arise on the regular so this one is not really that big of a deal. imho
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master