This question applies to any size changes mid combat, but the Druid example has come up in my game a few times now and I'm struggling to find any official ruling or opinions on this.
When a Druid is hit out of their wildshape, they of course revert to their normal form, which is only 1x1 tiles in size. However, creatures that are larger than medium obviously take more tile space, so which tile would they be in when returning to their normal form?
Here are 2 examples:
A Giant Ape which is 3x3
Ends up in which square?
In this case, the answer that makes the most sense is square 5, as it is directly in the middle of the Ape's space.
A Direwolf which is 2x2
Ends up in which square?
My ruling on this so far has been that if the Druid was within 5 feet of an enemy at the time of reverting to normal form, they must choose a square that is within 5 feet of this enemy. If for any reason this isn't possible, the Druid gets to choose any space to land on. If there were several enemies that were within 5 feet of the wildshaped Druid, then they would still be within 5 feet of an enemy, but the Druid would get to choose which enemy.
This is to avoid to being hit out of wildshape also functioning as a free disengage by choosing to go in a square that is far away from an enemy. As my Druid player is a Circle of the Moon Druid, I didn't want to give him even more power than he already has. I also don't want him reverting to a square out of range to trigger an opportunity attack, as he isn't really moving and this feels off.
He insists that this ruling is unfair, and should be able to choose any square he wants to when reverting to normal size without repercussion. I can see his side of the argument, but as previously stated, this is extra power the Moon Druid doesn't need.
I'd like to know how to handle this in future, especially if there is any official comments on something such as this from Crawford himself.
I would say that if the druid has not moved since the wildshape, they should probably go back to the square they started in. If they have moved, someone has to choose. Either the Dm chooses or the Dm lets the player choose. Or you could just place the druid at the center point of those squares. Whatever you end up doing, my advice is to remain consistent with it.
The squares are the squares the creature (wildshape form) controls in combat, not necessarily the ones it is standing in. If the Druid is knocked out of wildshape I would allow the player to decide what square they end up.
This is my default with wildshaped creatures that are 3x3 if there's no enemy within 5 feet of the wild shaped druid, but there's technically no "center" to 2x2 tiles, so this isn't possible for those sizes.
I would let the Druid player decide where they end up provided their speed isn't 0 (grappled, restrained, etc).
I think it's unfair to apply a particular rule to an entire class feature simply because the Druid happens to be playing a subclass that you feel can take advantage of the choice better than others. The most important thing about house rulings is that they be consistent. If another Druid character were to come in as a different subclass, they would be arbitrarily punished by your decision to make a ruling with specifically Moon Druids in mind.
And this doesn't even only affect druids since this is about size reduction in general. A Rune Knight Fighter returning from Large to Medium should have the same choice. Someone under the effects of Enlarge/Reduce would have the same choice. And remember this goes both ways, so your monsters and other enemies have the same benefit if their size changes.
Presumably, the druid could appear in any of the squares occupied by their wild shape (or polymorphed shape - though don't let the Druid use polymorph like wild shape - the lack of their abilities and mental stats should be a real hindrance). The rules don't state one way or another where the druid would appear so either the DM or player has to decide.
In terms of house rules to cover it, yours are as good as any other. In my case, I'd just let the druid choose which square they appear in since it really isn't a big deal one way or another.Is one op attack or forcing the druid to take the disengage action really that much of an advantage? Personally, I don't think so.
The only concern I have with the house rule is your reasoning for implementing this 5' rule. "I didn't want to give him even more power than he already has." Moon druid is good but after level 2 it is more or less downhill until level 10. It is pretty much strictly worse than most melee classes from level 5 onward though it does work well with Conjure Animals for a few levels. So, I really wouldn't consider missing an op attack to really be a significant factor in coming up with a ruling as to where the druid should appear. I'd also suggest that it isn't surprising that the player considers it unfair since your main reason for implementing it doesn't appear to be reality or rules or fairness ... it seems to be " this is extra power the Moon Druid doesn't need." while it really isn't much of an "extra power" ... and it will affect any other players who are polymorphed or otherwise transformed since they will have to follow the same rules presumably.
P.S. "Realistically" speaking, it is the druid who transforms both into and out of wildshape - does the druid get to choose the squares that they appear in or do you insist that they not be any nearer to enemy creatures? If the druid already picks the squares they appear in when transforming then I don't see why they wouldn't just pick the square they appear in when reversing the process. There really isn't any rule that insists that the transformation is symmetric, or centered or in any way anchored to one point in space except that the initial square of the druid should be the same as at least one of the squares occupied by the transformed shape - no matter which way the transformation goes. It really doesn't make much sense to me that the druid would have to choose a location within 5' of enemies since it implies that the transformation forces the druid towards opponents or that the druid for some reason has to choose to be within 5' of opponents - neither of which really makes much sense. So, I can see why the druid would object, the only logic to the house rule appears to be to intentionally penalize the character by forcing them into a square within 5' of an opponent and presumably ONLY for large creatures since if they are huge you already mention that you go to the middle square which will automatically be at least 10' from an opponent?
And either way the player should choose since it's in control, unless his or her character is unconscious and the DM want to determine it randomly instead. .
Presumably, the druid could appear in any of the squares occupied by their wild shape (or polymorphed shape - though don't let the Druid use polymorph like wild shape - the lack of their abilities and mental stats should be a real hindrance). The rules don't state one way or another where the druid would appear so either the DM or player has to decide.
In terms of house rules to cover it, yours are as good as any other. In my case, I'd just let the druid choose which square they appear in since it really isn't a big deal one way or another.Is one op attack or forcing the druid to take the disengage action really that much of an advantage? Personally, I don't think so.
The only concern I have with the house rule is your reasoning for implementing this 5' rule. "I didn't want to give him even more power than he already has." Moon druid is good but after level 2 it is more or less downhill until level 10. It is pretty much strictly worse than most melee classes from level 5 onward though it does work well with Conjure Animals for a few levels. So, I really wouldn't consider missing an op attack to really be a significant factor in coming up with a ruling as to where the druid should appear. I'd also suggest that it isn't surprising that the player considers it unfair since your main reason for implementing it doesn't appear to be reality or rules or fairness ... it seems to be " this is extra power the Moon Druid doesn't need." while it really isn't much of an "extra power" ... and it will affect any other players who are polymorphed or otherwise transformed since they will have to follow the same rules presumably.
P.S. "Realistically" speaking, it is the druid who transforms both into and out of wildshape - does the druid get to choose the squares that they appear in or do you insist that they not be any nearer to enemy creatures? If the druid already picks the squares they appear in when transforming then I don't see why they wouldn't just pick the square they appear in when reversing the process. There really isn't any rule that insists that the transformation is symmetric, or centered or in any way anchored to one point in space except that the initial square of the druid should be the same as at least one of the squares occupied by the transformed shape - no matter which way the transformation goes. It really doesn't make much sense to me that the druid would have to choose a location within 5' of enemies since it implies that the transformation forces the druid towards opponents or that the druid for some reason has to choose to be within 5' of opponents - neither of which really makes much sense. So, I can see why the druid would object, the only logic to the house rule appears to be to intentionally penalize the character by forcing them into a square within 5' of an opponent and presumably ONLY for large creatures since if they are huge you already mention that you go to the middle square which will automatically be at least 10' from an opponent?
Apologies, I should have clarified that my "within 5 feet of an enemy rule" applies to any size wildshape. The huge wildshapes default to the middle if there were no enemies within 5 feet of the huge wildshapes at the time of being hit to 0 hit points.
I agree that the rule should remain consistent, fortunately the game I DM has no other Druids in so I haven't had to come up with any exceptions to the rule. I simply have to disagree with your opinion on the Moon Druid's power but that's a conversation for another time. Druids choose to wildshape and therefore can control that and the squares the occupy, but suddenly being hit to 0 hitpoints isn't in their control, and shouldn't be able to control what is essentially free movement. Not to mention, being hit doesn't reward any other melee classes with a risk free, and literally free, disengage.
So far from responses I've seen is there is no official ruling on this, and therefore there is no objectively correct way to rule this. The general consensus is that having a free disengage isn't unbalanced and shouldn't cause issues, and I'm taking all of this onboard.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This question applies to any size changes mid combat, but the Druid example has come up in my game a few times now and I'm struggling to find any official ruling or opinions on this.
When a Druid is hit out of their wildshape, they of course revert to their normal form, which is only 1x1 tiles in size. However, creatures that are larger than medium obviously take more tile space, so which tile would they be in when returning to their normal form?
Here are 2 examples:
A Giant Ape which is 3x3
Ends up in which square?
In this case, the answer that makes the most sense is square 5, as it is directly in the middle of the Ape's space.
A Direwolf which is 2x2
Ends up in which square?
My ruling on this so far has been that if the Druid was within 5 feet of an enemy at the time of reverting to normal form, they must choose a square that is within 5 feet of this enemy. If for any reason this isn't possible, the Druid gets to choose any space to land on. If there were several enemies that were within 5 feet of the wildshaped Druid, then they would still be within 5 feet of an enemy, but the Druid would get to choose which enemy.
This is to avoid to being hit out of wildshape also functioning as a free disengage by choosing to go in a square that is far away from an enemy. As my Druid player is a Circle of the Moon Druid, I didn't want to give him even more power than he already has. I also don't want him reverting to a square out of range to trigger an opportunity attack, as he isn't really moving and this feels off.
He insists that this ruling is unfair, and should be able to choose any square he wants to when reverting to normal size without repercussion. I can see his side of the argument, but as previously stated, this is extra power the Moon Druid doesn't need.
I'd like to know how to handle this in future, especially if there is any official comments on something such as this from Crawford himself.
Thanks!
I would say that if the druid has not moved since the wildshape, they should probably go back to the square they started in. If they have moved, someone has to choose. Either the Dm chooses or the Dm lets the player choose. Or you could just place the druid at the center point of those squares. Whatever you end up doing, my advice is to remain consistent with it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The squares are the squares the creature (wildshape form) controls in combat, not necessarily the ones it is standing in. If the Druid is knocked out of wildshape I would allow the player to decide what square they end up.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
*In response to TexasDevin*
This is my default with wildshaped creatures that are 3x3 if there's no enemy within 5 feet of the wild shaped druid, but there's technically no "center" to 2x2 tiles, so this isn't possible for those sizes.
I would let the Druid player decide where they end up provided their speed isn't 0 (grappled, restrained, etc).
I think it's unfair to apply a particular rule to an entire class feature simply because the Druid happens to be playing a subclass that you feel can take advantage of the choice better than others. The most important thing about house rulings is that they be consistent. If another Druid character were to come in as a different subclass, they would be arbitrarily punished by your decision to make a ruling with specifically Moon Druids in mind.
And this doesn't even only affect druids since this is about size reduction in general. A Rune Knight Fighter returning from Large to Medium should have the same choice. Someone under the effects of Enlarge/Reduce would have the same choice. And remember this goes both ways, so your monsters and other enemies have the same benefit if their size changes.
Presumably, the druid could appear in any of the squares occupied by their wild shape (or polymorphed shape - though don't let the Druid use polymorph like wild shape - the lack of their abilities and mental stats should be a real hindrance). The rules don't state one way or another where the druid would appear so either the DM or player has to decide.
In terms of house rules to cover it, yours are as good as any other. In my case, I'd just let the druid choose which square they appear in since it really isn't a big deal one way or another.Is one op attack or forcing the druid to take the disengage action really that much of an advantage? Personally, I don't think so.
The only concern I have with the house rule is your reasoning for implementing this 5' rule. "I didn't want to give him even more power than he already has." Moon druid is good but after level 2 it is more or less downhill until level 10. It is pretty much strictly worse than most melee classes from level 5 onward though it does work well with Conjure Animals for a few levels. So, I really wouldn't consider missing an op attack to really be a significant factor in coming up with a ruling as to where the druid should appear. I'd also suggest that it isn't surprising that the player considers it unfair since your main reason for implementing it doesn't appear to be reality or rules or fairness ... it seems to be " this is extra power the Moon Druid doesn't need." while it really isn't much of an "extra power" ... and it will affect any other players who are polymorphed or otherwise transformed since they will have to follow the same rules presumably.
P.S. "Realistically" speaking, it is the druid who transforms both into and out of wildshape - does the druid get to choose the squares that they appear in or do you insist that they not be any nearer to enemy creatures? If the druid already picks the squares they appear in when transforming then I don't see why they wouldn't just pick the square they appear in when reversing the process. There really isn't any rule that insists that the transformation is symmetric, or centered or in any way anchored to one point in space except that the initial square of the druid should be the same as at least one of the squares occupied by the transformed shape - no matter which way the transformation goes. It really doesn't make much sense to me that the druid would have to choose a location within 5' of enemies since it implies that the transformation forces the druid towards opponents or that the druid for some reason has to choose to be within 5' of opponents - neither of which really makes much sense. So, I can see why the druid would object, the only logic to the house rule appears to be to intentionally penalize the character by forcing them into a square within 5' of an opponent and presumably ONLY for large creatures since if they are huge you already mention that you go to the middle square which will automatically be at least 10' from an opponent?
To me any change in size leave you occupying one of the space/square you did when larger.
And either way the player should choose since it's in control, unless his or her character is unconscious and the DM want to determine it randomly instead. .
Apologies, I should have clarified that my "within 5 feet of an enemy rule" applies to any size wildshape. The huge wildshapes default to the middle if there were no enemies within 5 feet of the huge wildshapes at the time of being hit to 0 hit points.
I agree that the rule should remain consistent, fortunately the game I DM has no other Druids in so I haven't had to come up with any exceptions to the rule. I simply have to disagree with your opinion on the Moon Druid's power but that's a conversation for another time. Druids choose to wildshape and therefore can control that and the squares the occupy, but suddenly being hit to 0 hitpoints isn't in their control, and shouldn't be able to control what is essentially free movement. Not to mention, being hit doesn't reward any other melee classes with a risk free, and literally free, disengage.
So far from responses I've seen is there is no official ruling on this, and therefore there is no objectively correct way to rule this. The general consensus is that having a free disengage isn't unbalanced and shouldn't cause issues, and I'm taking all of this onboard.