If a level 5 fighter is hidden as part of an ambush that is sprung on some goblins, he gets advantage from attacking because he was unseen by the goblins. When he makes his attack he gets his 5th level ability of extra attacks (attacking twice instead of once), do both of those attacks have advantage?
If a level 3 rogue who has taken the arcane trickster archetype uses his mage hand to hold a flask of oil above a goblin's head and then pours it over him, what happens? Does the goblin get covered in oil without any kind of roll to hit (with the help of gravity how can you miss)? What if he holds holy water over a zombie and pours it on him? What if he pours acid on a goblin? What if he drops a vial of alchemist fire from high enough to break directly straight down on top of a goblin?
If a level 5 fighter is hidden as part of an ambush that is sprung on some goblins, he gets advantage from attacking because he was unseen by the goblins. When he makes his attack he gets his 5th level ability of extra attacks (attacking twice instead of once), do both of those attacks have advantage?
As soon as your attack hits or misses, you're no longer hidden.
If a level 3 rogue who has taken the arcane trickster archetype uses his mage hand to hold a flask of oil above a goblin's head and then pours it over him, what happens?
Any time the rules don't say what happens, the DM decides. As a rule of thumb, hurting a creature should require an attack roll or allow a saving throw.
Does the goblin get covered in oil without any kind of roll to hit (with the help of gravity how can you miss)?
Why would gravity guarantee a hit? You can throw things with more force than gravity and still miss The goblin's not going to stay put and watch you pour oil over them.
In the PHB under equipment it says what happens if you pour oil on the ground and light it:
You can also pour a flask of oil on the ground to cover a 5-foot-square area, provided that the surface is level. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 5 fire damage to any creature that enters the area or ends its turn in the area. A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
There is no attack roll or saving throw allowed in some cases. The mage hand created by an arcane trickster can be invisible and there's a chance it won't be detected. You can also move it into position from behind the goblin so it never notices.
Gravity guarantees a direct hit to any target that is right below something dropped because things go straight down... not sideways... usually.
In the PHB under equipment it says what happens if you pour oil on the ground and light it:
But you're not pouring it on the ground, you're pouring it on a goblin.
There is no attack roll or saving throw allowed in some cases. The mage hand created by an arcane trickster can be invisible and there's a chance it won't be detected. You can also move it into position from behind the goblin so it never notices.
There is no "behind" in the combat rules, and the flask of oil won't be invisible just because the Mage Hand is.
If you're supposing some scenario where the goblin isn't aware they're in danger, the DM would roll for initiative and consider the goblin surprised.
Gravity guarantees a direct hit to any target that is right below something dropped because things go straight down... not sideways... usually.
The goblin could still move out of the way or block it with a shield. Dropping something has no inherent advantages over throwing it.
Thank for agreeing I'm pouring it on the goblin (no attack roll or saving throw mentioned).
There might not be a 'behind' mentioned in the combat rules, but there is a behind. If you're looking north and someone approaches from the south, that's behind.
There are rules for throwing improvised weapons such as vials of acid or flasks of oil (they're listed in the equipment section) but dropping something on a target right below it (I would like to laugh at the attack roll that misses)... I guess goblins could always move or block it with a shield (of course most things don't get to just move when it isn't their turn or block things with a shield).
There are rules for throwing improvised weapons such as vials of acid or flasks of oil (they're listed in the equipment section) but dropping something on a target right below it (I would like to laugh at the attack roll that misses)... I guess goblins could always move or block it with a shield (of course most things don't get to just move when it isn't their turn or block things with a shield).
That's called a Dex save. Save to take half damage (oh look, acid spilling on me from above, I'll just stay here! Nope - I will try to get out of the way of the stream to take less damage) Creatures/players ALWAYS get a chance to move/block with their shield when it isn't their turn. Otherwise the AC from their shield would only apply on their turn.
Thank for agreeing I'm pouring it on the goblin (no attack roll or saving throw mentioned).
I'm not in agreement that you get away with it without a roll.
There might not be a 'behind' mentioned in the combat rules, but there is a behind. If you're looking north and someone approaches from the south, that's behind.
Doesn't matter. There's no facing in the combat rules. If you want facing to matter, commit to it fully and use the optional rules in the DMG instead of only applying it when it's convenient.
There are rules for throwing improvised weapons such as vials of acid or flasks of oil (they're listed in the equipment section) but dropping something on a target right below it (I would like to laugh at the attack roll that misses)... I guess goblins could always move or block it with a shield (of course most things don't get to just move when it isn't their turn or block things with a shield).
Everyone gets a chance to react to incoming damage or negative effects. That's what AC and saving throws are. You don't get to automatically damage someone just because it's not their turn.
If someone triggers a collapsing roof trap mid-combat, you get a save even if it's not your turn. If someone casts meteor swarm and tries to drop a giant rock on your head, you get a save. If someone casts sleet storm over your head, you get a save. As a rule of thumb, if anyone tries to do anything harmful to another creature, there's an attack roll or save involved.
If a level 5 fighter is hidden as part of an ambush that is sprung on some goblins, he gets advantage from attacking because he was unseen by the goblins. When he makes his attack he gets his 5th level ability of extra attacks (attacking twice instead of once), do both of those attacks have advantage?
I'd probably rule both get advantage because, to use language from previous editions, the two attack roles are part of the same attack routine. (If a 5th level 5E fighter uses Action Surge, he gains two more attack rolls.)
But as pointed out above, once you attack, surprise/ambush is gone. I can also understand a stricter ruling that only one swing gets advantage.
The mage hand is invisible, what the mage hand is holding is not. You are not pouring it on the ground - the ground doesn't get a save, because its the ground, it can't move out of your effect. The goblin can. Thus, the Goblin would get a save of some kind (Dex save makes the most sense, as its related to moving). If you target a creature with anything, there is either: A contested roll, an attack roll, or a saving throw. Unless the thing specifically says that when targeting a creature you don't do those things (such as Magic Missile). That's the rules.
Saving throws and AC come into play when the rules state they do, which is most of the time, there are exceptions when they don't come into play (such as the example of magic missile), ultimately it is up to each DM how he would handle something being dumped on someone below. I can see where in cases of a rockfall trap you would get a saving throw to avoid it altogether or take half damage depending on the exact nature of each particular trap. Some more examples of no save or roll needed to hit AC is the cloud of daggers spell or the sleep spell. This might surprise or alarm you but sometimes in D&D things just happen and you have to deal with it.
Even though you're trying to obsufucate the rule of the flasks/vials, it talks about pouring it on an unmoving surface being an automatic effect, whereas the effect that would touch a creature asks for you to roll for it. So RAI would imply that if you want to directly effect a creature, even if you've decided to pour instead of throw, the rule that effects a *creature* would come into play, not the rule that effects the *environment*.
ultimately it is up to each DM how he would handle something being dumped on someone below
Yup, and I'm arguing that the majority of DMs wouldn't allow you to harm another creature without a roll, because it goes against the spirit of the rules. You'd need a really good reason for it.
Some more examples of no save or roll needed to hit AC is the cloud of daggers spell or the sleep spell.
Sleep has a roll - the monsters' HP is essentially acting as the DC.
Cloud of Daggers has trade-offs, opportunity costs and risks - it deals low damage for a 2nd level spell, you have to forego concentration on other spells, and you might get attacked and lose the spell before the intended target's turn.
This might surprise or alarm you but sometimes in D&D things just happen and you have to deal with it.
If by "sometimes" you mean "rarely", yes, that's true. Methods of dealing guaranteed harm to a creature are very rare and tend to have limitations on their use.
I'm not trying to obfuscate the rules, I just think that in some cases different rules might apply. The rules under equipment do cover whether you throw or splash the vials on targets, so I agree with you that maybe the same rule should be applied to the vials being dumped on a target. (It's just that I can see having a chance to hit or miss when you're making an attack by throwing or splashing but dumping something on a target right below seems like it should never miss... if the target was unaware.)
On a general opinion, I agree with InquisitiveCoder.
I would allow a DEX save, at disadvantage if the target is unaware, sure, but I'd still allow it.
OR
If the rule the party wants to follow is "no save for pouring things on a creature while unaware", get ready to be served the same trick at one point or another.
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On a general opinion, I agree with InquisitiveCoder.
I would allow a DEX save, at disadvantage if the target is unaware, sure, but I'd still allow it.
OR
If the rule the party wants to follow is "no save for pouring things on a creature while unaware", get ready to be served the same trick at one point or another.
This is true, the enemies are happy to use any rule exceptions the players enjoy... >:)
Assuming you aren't in combat and are trying to drop oil on the goblin, then they would likely get a save against the oil to see how quickly they react to feeling the oil fall onto them.
The oil doesn't all leave the container instantaneously ... it is usually poured (if quickly) and although the goblin will likely have some oil on it ... the actual amount depends on how quickly the oil is poured, how far above the goblin it is poured and how quickly the goblin reacts among other factors ... which is all lumped together into a saving throw (likely vs dexterity).
Depending on the circumstances this could also be resolved with a to hit roll perhaps indicating how good you are at judging which point in space at a distance of 30' (or whatever range) is actually above the goblin. This can be quite challenging unless there is some mark or other indication on the ceiling indicating where the goblin is standing or if the vial is close enough above the goblin that it is easier to judge.
On the other hand, if you are already in combat or the goblin is already alert and looking around then it likely won't work at all since if the vial is low enough to make targeting easy they would likely see it coming and if it was high enough above to make it difficult to spot then it can be very challenging to aim properly.
You could also use skill checks and combine it with DEX saves as the posters mentioned above. Sleight of hand to see if you can get it into place unseen, perhaps granting advantage or disadvantage or a straight roll depending on the result?
You could also just treat it as you would other spell attacks - either roll for an attack or set a DC based on the caster's proficiency and modifier. (I think these ideas were previously brought up)
I'm not trying to obfuscate the rules, I just think that in some cases different rules might apply. The rules under equipment do cover whether you throw or splash the vials on targets, so I agree with you that maybe the same rule should be applied to the vials being dumped on a target. (It's just that I can see having a chance to hit or miss when you're making an attack by throwing or splashing but dumping something on a target right below seems like it should never miss... if the target was unaware.)
Keep in mind by RAW you even have to make attack rolls to hit unconscious opponents, and they are not likely to move far at any random moment, unlike a fully conscious goblin.
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If a level 5 fighter is hidden as part of an ambush that is sprung on some goblins, he gets advantage from attacking because he was unseen by the goblins. When he makes his attack he gets his 5th level ability of extra attacks (attacking twice instead of once), do both of those attacks have advantage?
If a level 3 rogue who has taken the arcane trickster archetype uses his mage hand to hold a flask of oil above a goblin's head and then pours it over him, what happens? Does the goblin get covered in oil without any kind of roll to hit (with the help of gravity how can you miss)? What if he holds holy water over a zombie and pours it on him? What if he pours acid on a goblin? What if he drops a vial of alchemist fire from high enough to break directly straight down on top of a goblin?
As soon as your attack hits or misses, you're no longer hidden.
Any time the rules don't say what happens, the DM decides. As a rule of thumb, hurting a creature should require an attack roll or allow a saving throw.
Why would gravity guarantee a hit? You can throw things with more force than gravity and still miss The goblin's not going to stay put and watch you pour oil over them.
In the PHB under equipment it says what happens if you pour oil on the ground and light it:
You can also pour a flask of oil on the ground to cover a 5-foot-square area, provided that the surface is level. If lit, the oil burns for 2 rounds and deals 5 fire damage to any creature that enters the area or ends its turn in the area. A creature can take this damage only once per turn.
There is no attack roll or saving throw allowed in some cases. The mage hand created by an arcane trickster can be invisible and there's a chance it won't be detected. You can also move it into position from behind the goblin so it never notices.
Gravity guarantees a direct hit to any target that is right below something dropped because things go straight down... not sideways... usually.
But you're not pouring it on the ground, you're pouring it on a goblin.
There is no "behind" in the combat rules, and the flask of oil won't be invisible just because the Mage Hand is.
If you're supposing some scenario where the goblin isn't aware they're in danger, the DM would roll for initiative and consider the goblin surprised.
Thank for agreeing I'm pouring it on the goblin (no attack roll or saving throw mentioned).
There might not be a 'behind' mentioned in the combat rules, but there is a behind. If you're looking north and someone approaches from the south, that's behind.
There are rules for throwing improvised weapons such as vials of acid or flasks of oil (they're listed in the equipment section) but dropping something on a target right below it (I would like to laugh at the attack roll that misses)... I guess goblins could always move or block it with a shield (of course most things don't get to just move when it isn't their turn or block things with a shield).
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I'm not in agreement that you get away with it without a roll.
Doesn't matter. There's no facing in the combat rules. If you want facing to matter, commit to it fully and use the optional rules in the DMG instead of only applying it when it's convenient.
The mage hand is invisible, what the mage hand is holding is not. You are not pouring it on the ground - the ground doesn't get a save, because its the ground, it can't move out of your effect. The goblin can. Thus, the Goblin would get a save of some kind (Dex save makes the most sense, as its related to moving). If you target a creature with anything, there is either: A contested roll, an attack roll, or a saving throw. Unless the thing specifically says that when targeting a creature you don't do those things (such as Magic Missile). That's the rules.
Saving throws and AC come into play when the rules state they do, which is most of the time, there are exceptions when they don't come into play (such as the example of magic missile), ultimately it is up to each DM how he would handle something being dumped on someone below. I can see where in cases of a rockfall trap you would get a saving throw to avoid it altogether or take half damage depending on the exact nature of each particular trap. Some more examples of no save or roll needed to hit AC is the cloud of daggers spell or the sleep spell. This might surprise or alarm you but sometimes in D&D things just happen and you have to deal with it.
Even though you're trying to obsufucate the rule of the flasks/vials, it talks about pouring it on an unmoving surface being an automatic effect, whereas the effect that would touch a creature asks for you to roll for it. So RAI would imply that if you want to directly effect a creature, even if you've decided to pour instead of throw, the rule that effects a *creature* would come into play, not the rule that effects the *environment*.
Yup, and I'm arguing that the majority of DMs wouldn't allow you to harm another creature without a roll, because it goes against the spirit of the rules. You'd need a really good reason for it.
Sleep has a roll - the monsters' HP is essentially acting as the DC.
Cloud of Daggers has trade-offs, opportunity costs and risks - it deals low damage for a 2nd level spell, you have to forego concentration on other spells, and you might get attacked and lose the spell before the intended target's turn.
I'm not trying to obfuscate the rules, I just think that in some cases different rules might apply. The rules under equipment do cover whether you throw or splash the vials on targets, so I agree with you that maybe the same rule should be applied to the vials being dumped on a target. (It's just that I can see having a chance to hit or miss when you're making an attack by throwing or splashing but dumping something on a target right below seems like it should never miss... if the target was unaware.)
On a general opinion, I agree with InquisitiveCoder.
I would allow a DEX save, at disadvantage if the target is unaware, sure, but I'd still allow it.
OR
If the rule the party wants to follow is "no save for pouring things on a creature while unaware", get ready to be served the same trick at one point or another.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Assuming you aren't in combat and are trying to drop oil on the goblin, then they would likely get a save against the oil to see how quickly they react to feeling the oil fall onto them.
The oil doesn't all leave the container instantaneously ... it is usually poured (if quickly) and although the goblin will likely have some oil on it ... the actual amount depends on how quickly the oil is poured, how far above the goblin it is poured and how quickly the goblin reacts among other factors ... which is all lumped together into a saving throw (likely vs dexterity).
Depending on the circumstances this could also be resolved with a to hit roll perhaps indicating how good you are at judging which point in space at a distance of 30' (or whatever range) is actually above the goblin. This can be quite challenging unless there is some mark or other indication on the ceiling indicating where the goblin is standing or if the vial is close enough above the goblin that it is easier to judge.
On the other hand, if you are already in combat or the goblin is already alert and looking around then it likely won't work at all since if the vial is low enough to make targeting easy they would likely see it coming and if it was high enough above to make it difficult to spot then it can be very challenging to aim properly.
Re: Mage Hand
You could also use skill checks and combine it with DEX saves as the posters mentioned above. Sleight of hand to see if you can get it into place unseen, perhaps granting advantage or disadvantage or a straight roll depending on the result?
You could also just treat it as you would other spell attacks - either roll for an attack or set a DC based on the caster's proficiency and modifier. (I think these ideas were previously brought up)
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