Here’s the idea: a level 17 Mastermind Rogue lies to a solar or planetar. Due to the solar/planetar’s Divine Awareness ability, which states that:
The solar/planetar knows if it hears a lie.
the angel should know that the rogue is lying, right? However, the Mastermind Rogue’s 17th-level ability, Soul of Deceit, says:
Additionally, no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates you are being truthful if you so choose, and you can’t be compelled to tell the truth by magic.
I’ve asked someone about this and they took the side of the angel. But I’m curious: which do you think overrides the other? If your answer is more complicated than taking one side or the other, feel free to leave a comment!
A fun compromise Is the Solar could be unsure of anything they say and perhaps slightly afraid of proceeding In any further conversations. It needs to be worthy of Seventeen levels or it's meaningless.
I, too, incline toward making the ability useful. It may be instructive to point out that Glibness--an 8th level spell--has a similar interaction.
Additionally, no matter what you say, magic that would determine if you are telling the truth indicates that you are being truthful.
The investment of an 8th level slot is huge, and to have it result in a no-sell would be disappointing. It's clear to me that the RAW is for the Angel to come out on top, but I haven't found a lot of interactions that rely on perception of the truth through magic... What's the point of the wording above if it doesn't work on Solars and Planetars?
Because it deceives a lot of other things that aren't 4th tier Legendary monsters, arguably. I'd call being able to project false thoughts the meat of the Mastermind feature, with the lying one more a secondary, so I don't think you need to stretch to make it applicable in all possible circumstances. And Glibness becomes available at 15th level, while the CR of a Planetar is 16, so by that measuring stick Divine Awareness comes out ahead. There's something to be said for having the odd trump card to player options like this to keep them from simply being perfect solutions.
Personally, I would rule that the Angel cannot determine the character is telling the truth OR lying. It would have to rely on the good old fashioned skill checks of Insight vs. Deception...or Persuasion. Perhaps at disadvantage because an Angel rarely has to consider and think if someone is lying.
Here’s the idea: a level 17 Mastermind Rogue lies to a solar or planetar. Due to the solar/planetar’s Divine Awareness ability, which states that:
the angel should know that the rogue is lying, right? However, the Mastermind Rogue’s 17th-level ability, Soul of Deceit, says:
I’ve asked someone about this and they took the side of the angel. But I’m curious: which do you think overrides the other? If your answer is more complicated than taking one side or the other, feel free to leave a comment!
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My homebrew stuff:
Spells, Monsters, Magic Items, Feats, Subclasses.
I am an Archfey, but nobody seems to notice.
Extended Signature
RAW, an effect is only magic if it says it is. Soul of deceit only works against magic and divine awareness is not magic as written.
I'd probably house rule that, because I don't think soul of deceit will get much use, so no use taking away an opportunity.
As already stated, following RAW the rogue's Soul of Deceit would not work against the Solar and Planetar's Divine Awareness.
A fun compromise Is the Solar could be unsure of anything they say and perhaps slightly afraid of proceeding In any further conversations. It needs to be worthy of Seventeen levels or it's meaningless.
I, too, incline toward making the ability useful. It may be instructive to point out that Glibness--an 8th level spell--has a similar interaction.
The investment of an 8th level slot is huge, and to have it result in a no-sell would be disappointing. It's clear to me that the RAW is for the Angel to come out on top, but I haven't found a lot of interactions that rely on perception of the truth through magic... What's the point of the wording above if it doesn't work on Solars and Planetars?
Because it deceives a lot of other things that aren't 4th tier Legendary monsters, arguably. I'd call being able to project false thoughts the meat of the Mastermind feature, with the lying one more a secondary, so I don't think you need to stretch to make it applicable in all possible circumstances. And Glibness becomes available at 15th level, while the CR of a Planetar is 16, so by that measuring stick Divine Awareness comes out ahead. There's something to be said for having the odd trump card to player options like this to keep them from simply being perfect solutions.
Unstoppable vs Immovable object.
Personally, I would rule that the Angel cannot determine the character is telling the truth OR lying. It would have to rely on the good old fashioned skill checks of Insight vs. Deception...or Persuasion. Perhaps at disadvantage because an Angel rarely has to consider and think if someone is lying.