"Loading: You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."
If a level 5 fighter (ExtraAttack) has a pistol, they can only shoot it once per Action?
CrossbowExpert feat allows a charavter to ignore the loading property of all crossbow weapons. Meaning a fighter can use that feat to make 2 crossbkw attacks on their action. But there ie no similar feat for firearms.
If firearms cant bypass the loading property restriction, that would make them far less obnoxious. But i am pretty sure i see players doing multiple attacks with a pistol on their turn.
The power creep with firearms is so annoying. But maybe its creeping in part because dms arent enforcing the loading property restriction?
Crossbow Expert explicitly says the Ignore Loading trait only applies to "the Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, and Light Crossbow". It's even right there in your quote. So firearms already can't bypass the loading trait using that feat.
Is this something happening at your table specifically? If so enforce the Crossbow Expert feat RAW. If it's happening at other tables, are these tables where the DM is complaining to you about firearms? You can remind them of what Crossbow Expert says.
If it's not happening at your table and the tables it's happening at no one is complaining, what's the issue?
CrossbowExpert feat allows a charavter to ignore the loading property of all crossbow weapons. Meaning a fighter can use that feat to make 2 crossbkw attacks on their action. But there ie no similar feat for firearms.
The 2024 version of Crossbow Expert is more limited (specific crossbows). And Tasha's has the Gunner feat, which does the same for firearms.
The newer Eberron book has "Repeating Shot" as an Uncommon magic item, which (among other things) ignores the Loading property. It's probably a popular choice for Artificers and Replicate Magic Item.
But otherwise, it's harder to ignore the Loading property for firearms, and firearms tend to have less range than bows/crossbows. So the tradeoff is mostly range vs damage, though firearms are significantly more expensive, as well.
I assumed they were talking about the 2024 version of CBE because their post quoted the 2024 version of Loading. But even so, both versions of CBE, 2014 and 2024, limit the ability to ignore the loading property to crossbows:
2014
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient.
2024
Ignore Loading. You ignore the Loading property of the Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, and Light Crossbow (all called crossbows elsewhere in this feat). If you’re holding one of them, you can load a piece of ammunition into it even if you lack a free hand.
"The newer Eberron book has "Repeating Shot" as an Uncommon magic item, which (among other things) ignores the Loading property. It's probably a popular choice for Artificers and Replicate Magic Item."
Ugh. That might be whats going on. 2 levels of artificer for a colt-45. Not a fan, but it kinda works.
Raw, does tasha's stuff (like gunner feat) work with 2024 rules?
I just wanted to add that one of the differences between the 2014 and 2024 feat is that you now need to use a different Hand Crossbow to attack twice when using the Light property.
Raw, does tasha's stuff (like gunner feat) work with 2024 rules?
2024 is backwards compatible with Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, so with the exception of updated options you can combine the sources.
I don't think "Does it work RAW?" is the right question, and instead you should be looking at if the outcome of combining the options using RAW gives the result you're looking for.
Given that the Gunner feat specifies:
You ignore the loading property of firearms.
This was written when "firearm" was a specific category defined in the Dungeon Master's Guide. The 2024 Player's Handbook has no such explicit category and actually only uses the word "firearm" twice in the equipment section:
Craft: Any Melee weapon (except Club, Greatclub, Quarterstaff, and Whip), Medium armor (except Hide), Heavy armor, Ball Bearings, Bucket, Caltrops, Chain, Crowbar, Firearm Bullets, Grappling Hook, Iron Pot, Iron Spikes, Sling Bullets
and
Bullets, Firearm 10 Pouch 2 lb. 3 GP
There's no explicit RAW stating the Pistol and Musket are firearms but it seems to be implied to be so and under that implication the Gunner feat would still apply.
Basically I'm saying that a hypothetical argument could be made that the RAW doesn't say what a firearm is or label anything as such so there's no weapon in the 2024 rules to apply Gunner to, but I'm also saying I would personally believe that to be a fundamentally intellectually dishonest argument not in the spirit of the game. As a DM, I would feel confident and comfortable stating the Pistol and Musket are firearms, the Gunner feat applies to them, and I'd even go so far as to say it'd be reasonable to assume that's RAI, if not explicitly RAW.
Ok so that means hand crossbow does a little less per attavk (1d6) versus pistol (1d10), but hand crossbow gets that additional attack as part of being Light.
That helps.
If tashas gunner feat is incompatible with 2024, then the only way for firearms to ignore the loading feat is 2 levels of artificer, and honestly, artificers are so weak otherwise that id be fine with that.
I may change my campaign rules to just outright ban gunner feat and then i might be ok allowing firearms. And you need artificer to go semiautomatic.
Ok so that means hand crossbow does a little less per attavk (1d6) versus pistol (1d10), but hand crossbow gets that additional attack as part of being Light.
Also worth noting that no firearms from the PHB (or the modern/scifi optional ones from the DMG) have the Light property, nor the Nick mastery.
The PHB ones are reasonably balanced against the other martial ranged options, basically.
There's no explicit RAW stating the Pistol and Musket are firearms but it seems to be implied to be so and under that implication the Gunner feat would still apply.
Basically I'm saying that a hypothetical argument could be made that the RAW doesn't say what a firearm is or label anything as such so there's no weapon in the 2024 rules to apply Gunner to, but I'm also saying I would personally believe that to be a fundamentally intellectually dishonest argument not in the spirit of the game. As a DM, I would feel confident and comfortable stating the Pistol and Musket are firearms, the Gunner feat applies to them, and I'd even go so far as to say it'd be reasonable to assume that's RAI, if not explicitly RAW.
Also worth pointing out that there's a section in chapter 3 of the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide called "Firearms and Explosives", which is mostly about a whole different set of optional firearm weapons, but it says right at the top of this section:
Renaissance-era pistols and muskets appear in the Player’s Handbook.
This further supports the idea that the intent is for the guns in the Player's Handbook to count as "firearms".
Ok so that means hand crossbow does a little less per attavk (1d6) versus pistol (1d10), but hand crossbow gets that additional attack as part of being Light.
An important implication of the lack of light property is also that rogues (who don't normally care about loading) do not get proficiency with firearms.
Regarding Reloading weapons, note that in 2024 they are simply another magic item entry, not the exclusive purview of Artificers. If you’re looking for one once Extra Attack starts coming online, talk with your DM about getting a chance to buy/find one at that point.
Regarding Reloading weapons, note that in 2024 they are simply another magic item entry, not the exclusive purview of Artificers. If you’re looking for one once Extra Attack starts coming online, talk with your DM about getting a chance to buy/find one at that point.
Where do i find the rules for auto-reloading weapons?
Regarding Reloading weapons, note that in 2024 they are simply another magic item entry, not the exclusive purview of Artificers. If you’re looking for one once Extra Attack starts coming online, talk with your DM about getting a chance to buy/find one at that point.
Where do i find the rules for auto-reloading weapons?
Phb? Dmg?
Repeating Shot weapons were introduced in Eberron: Forge of the Artificer.
Regarding Reloading weapons, note that in 2024 they are simply another magic item entry, not the exclusive purview of Artificers. If you’re looking for one once Extra Attack starts coming online, talk with your DM about getting a chance to buy/find one at that point.
Where do i find the rules for auto-reloading weapons?
Phb? Dmg?
Repeating Shot weapons were introduced in Eberron: Forge of the Artificer.
Gah. Didnt look there. Thanks.
Uncommon rarity???
I might go back to just keeping all firearms banned.
That’s rather melodramatic. The reality is that on the basic DPR level firearms are mostly cosmetic. A pistol and musket average 1 damage per roll higher than a standard or heavy crossbow, respectively. They don’t have any kind of secondary interaction with the damage formula like in some previous editions, so in some ways they’re more a downgrade given their much shorter initial range. And you can have a Reloading Crossbow just as easily, so it’s not like guns get anything extra there either.
"A pistol and musket average 1 damage per roll higher "
That is the very definition of power creep. Any indivdusl change is tiny, but the pressure to keep increasing is incessent. On a small scale,people look at 1 point and go "meh", but when you look at the changes from, say 2e to now, the pattern is clear.
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All firearms have the Loading property.
"Loading: You can fire only one piece of ammunition from a Loading weapon when you use an action, a Bonus Action, or a Reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."
If a level 5 fighter (ExtraAttack) has a pistol, they can only shoot it once per Action?
CrossbowExpert feat allows a charavter to ignore the loading property of all crossbow weapons. Meaning a fighter can use that feat to make 2 crossbkw attacks on their action. But there ie no similar feat for firearms.
If firearms cant bypass the loading property restriction, that would make them far less obnoxious. But i am pretty sure i see players doing multiple attacks with a pistol on their turn.
The power creep with firearms is so annoying. But maybe its creeping in part because dms arent enforcing the loading property restriction?
Crossbow Expert explicitly says the Ignore Loading trait only applies to "the Hand Crossbow, Heavy Crossbow, and Light Crossbow". It's even right there in your quote. So firearms already can't bypass the loading trait using that feat.
Is this something happening at your table specifically? If so enforce the Crossbow Expert feat RAW. If it's happening at other tables, are these tables where the DM is complaining to you about firearms? You can remind them of what Crossbow Expert says.
If it's not happening at your table and the tables it's happening at no one is complaining, what's the issue?
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
The 2024 version of Crossbow Expert is more limited (specific crossbows). And Tasha's has the Gunner feat, which does the same for firearms.
The newer Eberron book has "Repeating Shot" as an Uncommon magic item, which (among other things) ignores the Loading property. It's probably a popular choice for Artificers and Replicate Magic Item.
But otherwise, it's harder to ignore the Loading property for firearms, and firearms tend to have less range than bows/crossbows. So the tradeoff is mostly range vs damage, though firearms are significantly more expensive, as well.
I assumed they were talking about the 2024 version of CBE because their post quoted the 2024 version of Loading. But even so, both versions of CBE, 2014 and 2024, limit the ability to ignore the loading property to crossbows:
2014
2024
Neither version of the feat applies to firearms.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
"The newer Eberron book has "Repeating Shot" as an Uncommon magic item, which (among other things) ignores the Loading property. It's probably a popular choice for Artificers and Replicate Magic Item."
Ugh. That might be whats going on. 2 levels of artificer for a colt-45. Not a fan, but it kinda works.
Raw, does tasha's stuff (like gunner feat) work with 2024 rules?
Related threads about this change and the Loading property:
2024 is backwards compatible with Tasha's Cauldron of Everything, so with the exception of updated options you can combine the sources.
I don't think "Does it work RAW?" is the right question, and instead you should be looking at if the outcome of combining the options using RAW gives the result you're looking for.
Given that the Gunner feat specifies:
This was written when "firearm" was a specific category defined in the Dungeon Master's Guide. The 2024 Player's Handbook has no such explicit category and actually only uses the word "firearm" twice in the equipment section:
and
There's no explicit RAW stating the Pistol and Musket are firearms but it seems to be implied to be so and under that implication the Gunner feat would still apply.
Basically I'm saying that a hypothetical argument could be made that the RAW doesn't say what a firearm is or label anything as such so there's no weapon in the 2024 rules to apply Gunner to, but I'm also saying I would personally believe that to be a fundamentally intellectually dishonest argument not in the spirit of the game. As a DM, I would feel confident and comfortable stating the Pistol and Musket are firearms, the Gunner feat applies to them, and I'd even go so far as to say it'd be reasonable to assume that's RAI, if not explicitly RAW.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Ok so that means hand crossbow does a little less per attavk (1d6) versus pistol (1d10), but hand crossbow gets that additional attack as part of being Light.
That helps.
If tashas gunner feat is incompatible with 2024, then the only way for firearms to ignore the loading feat is 2 levels of artificer, and honestly, artificers are so weak otherwise that id be fine with that.
I may change my campaign rules to just outright ban gunner feat and then i might be ok allowing firearms. And you need artificer to go semiautomatic.
Also worth noting that no firearms from the PHB (or the modern/scifi optional ones from the DMG) have the Light property, nor the Nick mastery.
The PHB ones are reasonably balanced against the other martial ranged options, basically.
Also worth pointing out that there's a section in chapter 3 of the 2024 Dungeon Master's Guide called "Firearms and Explosives", which is mostly about a whole different set of optional firearm weapons, but it says right at the top of this section:
This further supports the idea that the intent is for the guns in the Player's Handbook to count as "firearms".
pronouns: he/she/they
An important implication of the lack of light property is also that rogues (who don't normally care about loading) do not get proficiency with firearms.
Regarding Reloading weapons, note that in 2024 they are simply another magic item entry, not the exclusive purview of Artificers. If you’re looking for one once Extra Attack starts coming online, talk with your DM about getting a chance to buy/find one at that point.
Where do i find the rules for auto-reloading weapons?
Phb? Dmg?
Repeating Shot weapons were introduced in Eberron: Forge of the Artificer.
pronouns: he/she/they
Gah. Didnt look there. Thanks.
Uncommon rarity???
I might go back to just keeping all firearms banned.
Its just power creep at this point
That’s rather melodramatic. The reality is that on the basic DPR level firearms are mostly cosmetic. A pistol and musket average 1 damage per roll higher than a standard or heavy crossbow, respectively. They don’t have any kind of secondary interaction with the damage formula like in some previous editions, so in some ways they’re more a downgrade given their much shorter initial range. And you can have a Reloading Crossbow just as easily, so it’s not like guns get anything extra there either.
"A pistol and musket average 1 damage per roll higher "
That is the very definition of power creep. Any indivdusl change is tiny, but the pressure to keep increasing is incessent. On a small scale,people look at 1 point and go "meh", but when you look at the changes from, say 2e to now, the pattern is clear.