Me and a friend were wondering about what would happen if a creature entered initiative later and had the Alert feat. Would they be able to use the Initiative Swap feature?
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I think a strict reading of the rules would allow it, since the feat says "immediately after you roll Initiative", and someone added to the combat while it's in progress typically rolls Initiative when they show up.
That said, since the feat is called "Alert", what it seems to be modeling is the character being unusually good at reacting quickly to the start of combat; flavor-wise, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for that benefit to also be available to someone who joins combat sometime after it has already started. So I think it would be reasonable for a DM to rule that you can only use it when rolling Initiative at the start of combat.
It's probably not likely to come up very often in practice. In my experience, player characters rarely join combat once it's already started, and NPCs and monsters don't typically have feats at all.
Regarding adding a combatant, there's some guidance in the DMG:
Add a Combatant
To add excitement to a battle, consider adding a combatant. Maybe a monstrous predator wanders onto the scene where the characters are locked in battle with another foe. Or maybe the noise of the ongoing combat attracts the attention of nearby dungeon denizens. The new combatant might attack both the characters and their foes, or it might join one side or the other. Each time one or more new combatants join the encounter, roll Initiative for them and weave them into the Initiative order.
Assuming that the new combatant has the Alert feat, I think it can benefit from Initiative Swap.
Me and a friend were wondering about what would happen if a creature entered initiative later and had the Alert feat. Would they be able to use the Initiative Swap feature?
Id allow it.
If they have alert, it would mean they are quick on the draw and fast on their feet. If they walk into a room with ongoing combat during the second round, they are still quick on the draw and have fast feet and should be able to use that feature to reflect their abilities.
Also, they spent resources to get that feature, so why rob them of it.
Regarding adding a combatant, there's some guidance in the DMG:
Add a Combatant
To add excitement to a battle, consider adding a combatant. Maybe a monstrous predator wanders onto the scene where the characters are locked in battle with another foe. Or maybe the noise of the ongoing combat attracts the attention of nearby dungeon denizens. The new combatant might attack both the characters and their foes, or it might join one side or the other. Each time one or more new combatants join the encounter, roll Initiative for them and weave them into the Initiative order.
Assuming that the new combatant has the Alert feat, I think it can benefit from Initiative Swap.
Since i usually make creatures enter combat and roll initiative at the start or end of a round, Initiative Swap would work as written.
If for some reason a PC would enter combat order mid-round, i would try to not punish it anyway.
I can't recall the last time this came up, but I think this is the best way to handle it. "Add a Combatant" doesn't specify when to add them in and when to roll initiative.
The alternative would be that they roll initiative as they appear, but how do you know when they appear if they haven't rolled initiative?
The secondary question is who can they affect with Initiative Swap? That depends on when you roll initiative and other factors, but "willing ally" is critical.
If they roll before they appear (this could represent a combatant aware of the combat and coming to investigate or reinforce a side), then they should be able to target any ally that they are aware of and that is aware of them. This is not a requirement listed in the feat, but I don't think two creatures that are not aware of each other can be willing allies.
If they roll after they appear (this could represent a combatant who has stumbled into the combat and is only now aware of it), then they should be able to target any willing ally as normal. A DM may or may not require an action or activity in order to treat certain creatures as allies (for example, 4 creatures in your uniforms are fighting 4 similarly dressed creatures and you don't know which group is the imposter or if this a different sort of disagreement).
The thing is that i don't think Alert was written with Adding a Combattant in mind nor intended to let a creature skip turn for another to take 2 turn in a round via Initiative Swap, hence why doing so at the start of the Initiative order is what come closest to a normal turn of event to me.
The thing is that i don't think Alert was written with Adding a Combattant in mind nor intended to let a creature skip turn for another to take 2 turn in a round via Initiative Swap, hence why doing so at the start of the Initiative order is what come closest to a normal turn of event to me.
I would have to agree. Swapping initiative in the middle of a round could result in a character getting two turns in the same round, which should not be possible under normal circumstance. Making the swap happen at the beginning of the round (when you go back to the top of the initiative order) seems like solution that makes the most sense.
"Swapping initiative in the middle of a round could result in a character getting two turns in the same round,"
But that would also mean the charavter who just joined combat does NOT have a turn that round at all, so not exactly unbalanced.
As dm, i tend to go easy on any feature a player uses that buffs another player. Cause the alternative is everyone builds selfish charavters whose features only help themselves. And thats boring to me
The thing is that i don't think Alert was written with Adding a Combattant in mind nor intended to let a creature skip turn for another to take 2 turn in a round via Initiative Swap, hence why doing so at the start of the Initiative order is what come closest to a normal turn of event to me.
I agree, but if an effect changed the initiative order, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Let's say someone with Alert was teleported in and I let them roll initiative immediately and use Initiative Swap. If they swap places with someone has already acted, then the new creature acts immediately and the existing one "misses" their second turn when it comes up. If they roll above the current initiative, the new creature acts immediately. If they roll above the current initiative and swap with someone who hasn't gone, the existing creature acts immediately and the new one acts when their turn comes up. It's manageable.
Depending on the situation, it could be dangerous to be teleported in and have to hang around until your action on the next round.
Me and a friend were wondering about what would happen if a creature entered initiative later and had the Alert feat. Would they be able to use the Initiative Swap feature?
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I think a strict reading of the rules would allow it, since the feat says "immediately after you roll Initiative", and someone added to the combat while it's in progress typically rolls Initiative when they show up.
That said, since the feat is called "Alert", what it seems to be modeling is the character being unusually good at reacting quickly to the start of combat; flavor-wise, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for that benefit to also be available to someone who joins combat sometime after it has already started. So I think it would be reasonable for a DM to rule that you can only use it when rolling Initiative at the start of combat.
It's probably not likely to come up very often in practice. In my experience, player characters rarely join combat once it's already started, and NPCs and monsters don't typically have feats at all.
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RAW appears to allow it. RAI is probably that it only applies to allies rolling initiative at the same time.
I personally wouldn't allow it, it just feels weird, and it would throw a lot of things off.
Since i usually make creatures enter combat and roll initiative at the start or end of a round, Initiative Swap would work as written.
If for some reason a PC would enter combat order mid-round, i would try to not punish it anyway.
Regarding adding a combatant, there's some guidance in the DMG:
Assuming that the new combatant has the Alert feat, I think it can benefit from Initiative Swap.
Id allow it.
If they have alert, it would mean they are quick on the draw and fast on their feet. If they walk into a room with ongoing combat during the second round, they are still quick on the draw and have fast feet and should be able to use that feature to reflect their abilities.
Also, they spent resources to get that feature, so why rob them of it.
Quoting out of sequence.
I can't recall the last time this came up, but I think this is the best way to handle it. "Add a Combatant" doesn't specify when to add them in and when to roll initiative.
The alternative would be that they roll initiative as they appear, but how do you know when they appear if they haven't rolled initiative?
The secondary question is who can they affect with Initiative Swap? That depends on when you roll initiative and other factors, but "willing ally" is critical.
If they roll before they appear (this could represent a combatant aware of the combat and coming to investigate or reinforce a side), then they should be able to target any ally that they are aware of and that is aware of them. This is not a requirement listed in the feat, but I don't think two creatures that are not aware of each other can be willing allies.
If they roll after they appear (this could represent a combatant who has stumbled into the combat and is only now aware of it), then they should be able to target any willing ally as normal. A DM may or may not require an action or activity in order to treat certain creatures as allies (for example, 4 creatures in your uniforms are fighting 4 similarly dressed creatures and you don't know which group is the imposter or if this a different sort of disagreement).
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The thing is that i don't think Alert was written with Adding a Combattant in mind nor intended to let a creature skip turn for another to take 2 turn in a round via Initiative Swap, hence why doing so at the start of the Initiative order is what come closest to a normal turn of event to me.
I would have to agree. Swapping initiative in the middle of a round could result in a character getting two turns in the same round, which should not be possible under normal circumstance. Making the swap happen at the beginning of the round (when you go back to the top of the initiative order) seems like solution that makes the most sense.
"Swapping initiative in the middle of a round could result in a character getting two turns in the same round,"
But that would also mean the charavter who just joined combat does NOT have a turn that round at all, so not exactly unbalanced.
As dm, i tend to go easy on any feature a player uses that buffs another player. Cause the alternative is everyone builds selfish charavters whose features only help themselves. And thats boring to me
I agree, but if an effect changed the initiative order, I wouldn't have a problem with it.
Let's say someone with Alert was teleported in and I let them roll initiative immediately and use Initiative Swap. If they swap places with someone has already acted, then the new creature acts immediately and the existing one "misses" their second turn when it comes up. If they roll above the current initiative, the new creature acts immediately. If they roll above the current initiative and swap with someone who hasn't gone, the existing creature acts immediately and the new one acts when their turn comes up. It's manageable.
Depending on the situation, it could be dangerous to be teleported in and have to hang around until your action on the next round.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.