Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Imagine the players have used stealth and they are at the entrance of a cave. Inside the cave there are several goblins. The Fighter is first and he sees the goblins and wants to attack them.
The question is: What if everyone rolls initiative (including the goblins with disadvantage [5.5 rules]) and the goblins or any other player roll higher than the Fighter? Should the Fighter make an attack first and then use the initiative order?
I'm confused. Could you help me out, please?
According to the rules, the best that you could do as a DM if you want the Fighter to have the best chance of acting first based on the particular scenario that is happening is to give the Fighter advantage on the initiative roll. Others get a straight roll, and surprised creatures roll at disadvantage. If the result of the dice still does not play out as expected, then "something" unusual must have happened which is then narrated accordingly. Things don't always go exactly according to plan and randomness is built into the rules whenever the outcome of a situation is uncertain.
That's probably how I'd run it. Even if the goblins go first, if they're not aware of the PCs and they haven't been attacked yet, they'd spend their turns doing whatever it is they were doing beforehand, so it'd be reasonable to just jump to the turn of the person who initiated combat and then go from there.
An alternative approach that is definitely outside the official rules, but which I've seen done well a few times (including in the video game Baldur's Gate III) is that the Fighter would get to resolve their initial action that started combat first, then you'd start the first round at the top of the Initiative order. When the Fighter's first turn came around, the Fighter wouldn't be able to take an action that turn (because they'd already taken one before combat started) but could take a bonus action and/or move around.
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RAW, what happens is that the fighter bursts into the room intending to attack... and the other characters go first. This is weird for a lot of reasons so people frequently house rule it.
This seems a bit more in line with the 5e 2014 rules except that you just aren't allowing for the scenario where someone might get two turns before another creature gets one like what could sometimes happen with the 2014 rules.
It seems to me that the intent is for the outcome to be more random than that but with the probabilities just weighted in one direction. You might situationally be able to tip the probabilities in your favor but that something might still happen to mess up your plans, as determined randomly. For example, you determine a path where you might be able to sneak into an area that you suspect is occupied by hostile enemies. You move ahead with your plan and successfully roll a stealth check. This check gives you an opportunity to surprise your enemies before they can notice you. So, you attempt to surprise them. But even though the enemies ARE surprised, at the moment when it becomes time to actually take advantage of the fact that they are surprised, something unexpected happens that allows the enemy to turn the tables before you can act effectively. Who knows what that might be, it might take some creativity to come up with something. But the rules seem to allow for that possibility now even though that was certainly not possible under the 2014 rules.
This is one of those things that gets house ruled often and is a good candidate for things to bring up with the group at session 0.
The moment someone initiates combat, Initiative is rolled. Each round represents 6 whole seconds and everyone in that combat has the same 6 seconds to deal with, including realizing that they are in combat. The Fighter trying to throw a spear or swing a sword, even from a position of stealth, takes 6 seconds to do it and that speedy Rogue or nimble goblin also gets the same 6 seconds. On average they may be faster in their ability to respond, including being able to attack first.
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Attacks are generally not intended to occur before the first turn of combat.
If the DM opt to roll Initiative then they have to expect the possibility that surprised Goblins' turn may come up before the party Fighter ambushing them.
Using Initiative Score could be a way to better ensure ambushers act before surprised creature;
Ambusher 15 + Dex mod
Surprised 05 + Dex mod
The rules here are more to prevent tpk than anything else. 2014 rules would let the monsters stealth up on the party, and get a whole round of attacks before the party could start taking turns. A dm could easily abuse this and tpk a party.
A lot of combats only last 2 or 3 rounds, and if youre unable to do anything for 1 round, you really start taking in the damage.
2024 rules nerf surprise so that if youre surprised, you only roll.at disadvantage.
And the rules for when to roll initiative are basically when anyone tries to attack, harm, or debuff an enemy in any noticable way. (So a silent Hex spell might occur before initiative is rolled)
But the gist of it all is that sneaking up on the enemy does not have anywhere near the benefit it did in 2024. It definitely isnt as rewarding to be quiet and sneak around and stealthy and such the way it was in 2014.
If someone sets up a ambush with some sort of trap or deadfall or explosion, then id probably (check to see if the targets fail to see the trap) and if not have the trap go off and then roll initiative, with the surprised folks roling at disadvantage.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
I think the hardest thing to reconcile is the fact that the "initiating action" may not even occur. Take the example from the DMG on surprise:
And yet, depending on the doppelganger's actions, the sorcerer may end up not even casting the spell... so there was nothing to anticipate... so why was combat initiated in the first place?
While I think it's possible to narrate the result of the die rolls here (the sorcerer reached for their focus, regardless of whether they ended up actually using it to cast a spell on their turn), I don't think it's the most satisfying way of playing surprise. It simply has too much quantum action going on. I have thought about a couple ways to houserule surprise to both be less devastating to the recipient and also more logical to how it comes about:
1. "Lock in" the initiating creature's Action for the first round. (This has the benefit of forcing the roleplay decision(s) that led to combat in the first place)
2. Allow the initiating creature one Action before initiative starts. (Practically speaking, a lower-powered version of the 2014 rules, as only one creature gets to act)
3. Only allow #2 if they have "readied" an action. (thereby using their reaction at the start of combat, regardless of their initiative order, but does allow for multiple creatures to act before the first proper turn)
For number 3, I'd have to think more on "why" a spell can only be readied for one round before it is lost before I'd allow a spell to be used in this way. Perhaps I'd have them roll a spellcasting check for every 6 seconds (after the first 6) that they need to hold it before combat starts...
My house rule is:
This avoids the inconsistent results:
I was actually thinking about using those skills as contested rolls to see if surprise happens, but that does appear to be cleaner and faster. Still, it doesn't solve the problem of "I was going to do this, which started combat, but now that someone has gone before me, I do something else." While perfectly within the rules, it just seems like metagaming as RAW.
I can see this happening. PC says I do X attack, loses initiative, monster goes first but has no reason to do anything as no offense was given OR runs away and PC has no target.
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I always imagine it works like an old west movie where some upstart kid challenges the fast gunslinger. They line up, the kid starts to draw, but the gunslinger is faster, sees the kid start the draw, and they outdraw the kid and shoot first.
That can give some explanation. But it still takes away thr fact that a standard military ambush is basically impossible to pull off. If you have an L shaped ambush set up, youre hidden, and the enemy walks into your kill zone, you should realistically get a free round before the enemy can respond. But since thats a goos way to tpk the party, they nerfed it.
Walking around in enemy territory, you stealth so you can avoid combat if the enemy force is too big. But stealthing gives you very little combat advantage (advantage on initiative, but you could still roll worse than the enemy).
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire