For once (literally) in my life I got lucky with stats rolls and got an 18.
Wanted a Sorcerer, so 18 in CHA, Entertainer background (to get Musician) and 20 in CHA. So far so good.
The problem is that I’m now considering leveling path and I have noticed that Inspiring Leader sort of got bugged in this release, for characters with a starting 20 (in either CHA or WIS). You either forfeit a +1 in an attribute (a big ask) or you end up having to use the feat with your lower stat (in my case it would become WIS 15, getting the +1 for the feat).
What’s the logic in a character with CHA 20 relying on his much lower WIS to inspire their companions? Tried searching online, just found a Reddit discussion where the only advice was “talk with your GM”. I’m surprised this hasn’t come up more often. With 4d6 keeping the highest 3, an 18 is rare but far from impossible.
The logic is probably the fact there's a low chance of a character being at 20 in their primary stat at level 1 and so the chance of that +1 being unnecessary is an edge case.
I'd just eat the +1 and take the feat—you got lucky with a rolled 18 which so not getting any value from that ASI is kinda small potatoes
A punitive approach toward a player that, for once, got lucky, is not what I was expecting, if I’m being honest. It’s an edge case but it wouldn’t have been hard to rule something like “you use the highest value of CHA or WIS”.
I see zero logic in a charismatic leader using WIS to inspire allies. In 5e (2014) WIS wasn’t even part of the equation. To me this all sounds like a “bug” in adjusting an old feat to the new system.
Why did you add a +2 in background vice a +1? Did you not look to the future by reading potential increases? For level 1 you don't need a 20, just increase by 1 or none to allow for expansion. If it was a one shot, then go for the 20.
I think you are not being penalized for being lucky, but penalized for being shortsighted. If you think that way, you can still relish in your luck.
Have you asked the DM if you could get a mulligan on that +2 and switch it to another attribute?
Why did you add a +2 in background vice a +1? Did you not look to the future by reading potential increases? For level 1 you don't need a 20, just increase by 1 or none to allow for expansion. If it was a one shot, then go for the 20.
I think you are not being penalized for being lucky, but penalized for being shortsighted. If you think that way, you can still relish in your luck.
Have you asked the DM if you could get a mulligan on that +2 and switch it to another attribute?
This is what I would do. Ask your DM to allow you to adjust your ability scores so that you start with either 18 or 19 in Charisma (depending on if the second feat you plan to take cares about which ability you increase). That way you can take the feats you want at levels 4 & 8 without losing out on the ability score increase part of the feats you want.
This isn’t unique to Inspiring Leader. Many feats tend to boost your primary stat, so taking the feat may mean that you sacrifice the ASI if you already have a 20. It’s actually only really an issue if you roll stats: with standard array or point buy, you’ll usually only start with a 16 or 17 in your primary stat. (I believe the game is balanced around characters having a +3 modifier for their primary ability in Tier 1.)
If I roll stats and am lucky enough to get a 17 or 18, I might decide to allocate my starting ASIs to secondary stats, to allow room for feats later.
It might be worth asking your DM if you can re-allocate your starting ASIs.
As for the logic of using Wisdom with Inspiring Leader? Think of a priestly character leading the party in prayer or a simple ritual before facing the day’s trials and tribulations. It’s a very appropriate pick for Clerics (and Druids).
For once (literally) in my life I got lucky with stats rolls and got an 18.
Wanted a Sorcerer, so 18 in CHA, Entertainer background (to get Musician) and 20 in CHA. So far so good.
The problem is that I’m now considering leveling path and I have noticed that Inspiring Leader sort of got bugged in this release, for characters with a starting 20 (in either CHA or WIS). You either forfeit a +1 in an attribute (a big ask) or you end up having to use the feat with your lower stat (in my case it would become WIS 15, getting the +1 for the feat).
What’s the logic in a character with CHA 20 relying on his much lower WIS to inspire their companions? Tried searching online, just found a Reddit discussion where the only advice was “talk with your GM”. I’m surprised this hasn’t come up more often. With 4d6 keeping the highest 3, an 18 is rare but far from impossible.
Any thoughts?
The limit of 20 is there regardless of the method used to generate your ability scores. After assigning your ability scores, choose Entertainer background and increase your Strength, Dexterity, Charisma by 1. Then select Inspiring Leader and Increase your Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.
As for the logic of using Wisdom with Inspiring Leader? Think of a priestly character leading the party in prayer or a simple ritual before facing the day’s trials and tribulations. It’s a very appropriate pick for Clerics (and Druids).
That was not my point, though. I am not questioning the fact that a wise leader can inspire their allies. I am questioning the fact that, rules as written, an incredibly charismatic leader would opt to inspire their allies through a far worse wisdom.
The limit of 20 is there regardless of the method used to generate your ability scores. After assigning your ability scores, choose Entertainer background and increase your Strength, Dexterity, Charisma by 1. Then select Inspiring Leader and Increase your Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.
I most definitely don't want nor I'm asking to increase Charisma beyond 20 at level 4.
Why did you add a +2 in background vice a +1? Did you not look to the future by reading potential increases? For level 1 you don't need a 20, just increase by 1 or none to allow for expansion. If it was a one shot, then go for the 20.
I think you are not being penalized for being lucky, but penalized for being shortsighted. If you think that way, you can still relish in your luck.
Hmmm... but that's exactly what I'm doing. I've not been shortsighted. Play has yet to start and I *am* looking at the future, reading about potential increases.
Still, I don't see a point in penalizing a character for having a 20 starting attribute, by reducing the value of future Feats. I rolled it, fair and square.
Everyone's mileage may vary in this regard but I remain convinced this is an oversight in the design of the game.
For what its worth I agree with your complaint. You should not need to use the stat you increased in the feats ability. Sure give the option to increase wisdom, but let the player use either wisdom or charisma when calculating the benefit. Same for fey touched or whatever decouple the stat choice from what stat is used. This can kick in for almost any build just later down the line. Using point buy and start with a 17 charisma, you are capped at 3 charisma based feats, then you need to have your telekinetic or whatever use +1 to int or something and now your push effect is using a weaker stat for you.
And no it is not an oversight it is an intentional design choice. A bad one imo but a intentional one.
I must agree that it'd be more flexible to have feat benefits tie to ''one of the ability increased with this feat'' instead of being locked to selection.
For what its worth I agree with your complaint. You should not need to use the stat you increased in the feats ability. Sure give the option to increase wisdom, but let the player use either wisdom or charisma when calculating the benefit. Same for fey touched or whatever decouple the stat choice from what stat is used. This can kick in for almost any build just later down the line. Using point buy and start with a 17 charisma, you are capped at 3 charisma based feats, then you need to have your telekinetic or whatever use +1 to int or something and now your push effect is using a weaker stat for you.
And no it is not an oversight it is an intentional design choice. A bad one imo but a intentional one.
Then why have set stat increases for any feat? Just give a general +1 you can put anywhere and completely decouple it from whatever the feat actually does. Take Spell Sniper and get a +1 on STR. Take Crusher and boost your WIS. Go wild
(For the record, I think that's a bad idea, but it's the logical endpoint of what you're suggesting)
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Still, I don't see a point in penalizing a character for having a 20 starting attribute, by reducing the value of future Feats. I rolled it, fair and square.
Then take a different feat, if you don't feel like you get full benefit out of Inspiring Leader. There's plenty of options
Those are decisions players have to make all the time when choosing feats -- it's just that normally the "full benefit" calculus comes from the feature provided, not the stat boost. If you're playing a wizard who takes War Caster, but you never get a chance to make an Opportunity Attack, have you been "penalized" for taking it?
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think it would be perfectly reasonable (but not in accordance with the official rules) to allow increasing one ability score but using another for this feat.
In fact, I'd go even further and say it would be a reasonable homebrew rule to allow any feat that would increase an ability score that's currently at 20 to apply the increase to any other ability score instead (as long as it's below 20). So in you case, you could for instance increase constitution while still using charisma for the feat.
Dungeons & Dragons isn't about math, it is about making fun characters. Complaining about not being able to have insanely high ability scores is missing the point of the game. D&D is about roleplaying and the stats will come in time, "forfeiting" a +1 is not a "big ask" it is pure logic. Work with what you have and avoid the min/maxing and you will be better off.
Then why have set stat increases for any feat? Just give a general +1 you can put anywhere and completely decouple it from whatever the feat actually does. Take Spell Sniper and get a +1 on STR. Take Crusher and boost your WIS. Go wild
(For the record, I think that's a bad idea, but it's the logical endpoint of what you're suggesting)
One feat gives you a +2. Many feats give you a +1. Some don't give you bonus. So far, the 2024 feats that don't give you a bonus are origin feats, fighting styles, and dragonmark feats (which can be considered pseudo-origin feats). We'll see if the pattern continues or changes.
Either the benefit of the feat is worth the opportunity cost of the second +1, or it's not. Independently, what is the merit of restricting the attribute? A Sharpshooter probably wants Dexterity, but maybe increasing Wisdom for a keen eye is more thematic. Locking down the attributes puts character creation on guardrails, making it harder to make a bad choice. This is not necessarily a bad thing for the game in general, but it may not be necessary or appropriate for more advanced players.
Locking down the attributes puts character creation on guardrails, making it harder to make a bad choice.
It also puts guardrails on class "identity" a bit. For example, PAM is a sub-optimal choice for a Pact of the Blade warlock, because it can't boost CHA. (But maybe CHA is already 20 at level 4...)
It's a mechanic to keep people who rolled well from ending up at 22 or 24.
The limit of a maximum of a 20 (or 30 for Epic Boons) already does that. Restricting the attribute serves a different purpose. It's debatable whether it is a good purpose. kenclary gives an excellent example, but also True Strike builds, Artificer Battle Smiths, and others suffer from the Attribute Restrictions and the places where it matters (Magic Initiate, for example) could be handled equally well by choosing an Attribute when you take the feat (like spellcasting from your species).
It's a design choice and it might be intended to help with the martial-caster divide. Who knows?
It doesn't all have to make sense, it's all made up. It's a mechanic to keep people who rolled well from ending up at 22 or 24.
This has nothing to do with that. You can't increase a score past 20 without a Boon. I do not want to get Charisma 21 by getting Inspired Leader at level 4. I am ok with increasing my WIS. I am not ok with then being forced to use WIS for the feat, because it makes no sense whatsoever.
A CHA 20, WIS 15 leader opting to inspire their allies through Wisdom is an idiot.
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Hi!
For once (literally) in my life I got lucky with stats rolls and got an 18.
Wanted a Sorcerer, so 18 in CHA, Entertainer background (to get Musician) and 20 in CHA. So far so good.
The problem is that I’m now considering leveling path and I have noticed that Inspiring Leader sort of got bugged in this release, for characters with a starting 20 (in either CHA or WIS). You either forfeit a +1 in an attribute (a big ask) or you end up having to use the feat with your lower stat (in my case it would become WIS 15, getting the +1 for the feat).
What’s the logic in a character with CHA 20 relying on his much lower WIS to inspire their companions? Tried searching online, just found a Reddit discussion where the only advice was “talk with your GM”. I’m surprised this hasn’t come up more often. With 4d6 keeping the highest 3, an 18 is rare but far from impossible.
Any thoughts?
The logic is probably the fact there's a low chance of a character being at 20 in their primary stat at level 1 and so the chance of that +1 being unnecessary is an edge case.
I'd just eat the +1 and take the feat—you got lucky with a rolled 18 which so not getting any value from that ASI is kinda small potatoes
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A punitive approach toward a player that, for once, got lucky, is not what I was expecting, if I’m being honest. It’s an edge case but it wouldn’t have been hard to rule something like “you use the highest value of CHA or WIS”.
I see zero logic in a charismatic leader using WIS to inspire allies. In 5e (2014) WIS wasn’t even part of the equation. To me this all sounds like a “bug” in adjusting an old feat to the new system.
Why did you add a +2 in background vice a +1? Did you not look to the future by reading potential increases? For level 1 you don't need a 20, just increase by 1 or none to allow for expansion. If it was a one shot, then go for the 20.
I think you are not being penalized for being lucky, but penalized for being shortsighted. If you think that way, you can still relish in your luck.
Have you asked the DM if you could get a mulligan on that +2 and switch it to another attribute?
This is what I would do. Ask your DM to allow you to adjust your ability scores so that you start with either 18 or 19 in Charisma (depending on if the second feat you plan to take cares about which ability you increase). That way you can take the feats you want at levels 4 & 8 without losing out on the ability score increase part of the feats you want.
This isn’t unique to Inspiring Leader. Many feats tend to boost your primary stat, so taking the feat may mean that you sacrifice the ASI if you already have a 20. It’s actually only really an issue if you roll stats: with standard array or point buy, you’ll usually only start with a 16 or 17 in your primary stat. (I believe the game is balanced around characters having a +3 modifier for their primary ability in Tier 1.)
If I roll stats and am lucky enough to get a 17 or 18, I might decide to allocate my starting ASIs to secondary stats, to allow room for feats later.
It might be worth asking your DM if you can re-allocate your starting ASIs.
As for the logic of using Wisdom with Inspiring Leader? Think of a priestly character leading the party in prayer or a simple ritual before facing the day’s trials and tribulations. It’s a very appropriate pick for Clerics (and Druids).
The limit of 20 is there regardless of the method used to generate your ability scores. After assigning your ability scores, choose Entertainer background and increase your Strength, Dexterity, Charisma by 1. Then select Inspiring Leader and Increase your Charisma by 1, to a maximum of 20.
That was not my point, though. I am not questioning the fact that a wise leader can inspire their allies. I am questioning the fact that, rules as written, an incredibly charismatic leader would opt to inspire their allies through a far worse wisdom.
I most definitely don't want nor I'm asking to increase Charisma beyond 20 at level 4.
Hmmm... but that's exactly what I'm doing. I've not been shortsighted. Play has yet to start and I *am* looking at the future, reading about potential increases.
Still, I don't see a point in penalizing a character for having a 20 starting attribute, by reducing the value of future Feats. I rolled it, fair and square.
Everyone's mileage may vary in this regard but I remain convinced this is an oversight in the design of the game.
I don't think it's an oversight, all the feats are usually designed to tie with the ability score they increase, especially when a selection is made;
Inspiring Leader
Fey-Touched
Poisoner
Ritual Caster
Shadow-Touched
Telekinetic
Telepathic
For what its worth I agree with your complaint. You should not need to use the stat you increased in the feats ability. Sure give the option to increase wisdom, but let the player use either wisdom or charisma when calculating the benefit. Same for fey touched or whatever decouple the stat choice from what stat is used. This can kick in for almost any build just later down the line. Using point buy and start with a 17 charisma, you are capped at 3 charisma based feats, then you need to have your telekinetic or whatever use +1 to int or something and now your push effect is using a weaker stat for you.
And no it is not an oversight it is an intentional design choice. A bad one imo but a intentional one.
I must agree that it'd be more flexible to have feat benefits tie to ''one of the ability increased with this feat'' instead of being locked to selection.
Then why have set stat increases for any feat? Just give a general +1 you can put anywhere and completely decouple it from whatever the feat actually does. Take Spell Sniper and get a +1 on STR. Take Crusher and boost your WIS. Go wild
(For the record, I think that's a bad idea, but it's the logical endpoint of what you're suggesting)
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Then take a different feat, if you don't feel like you get full benefit out of Inspiring Leader. There's plenty of options
Those are decisions players have to make all the time when choosing feats -- it's just that normally the "full benefit" calculus comes from the feature provided, not the stat boost. If you're playing a wizard who takes War Caster, but you never get a chance to make an Opportunity Attack, have you been "penalized" for taking it?
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think it would be perfectly reasonable (but not in accordance with the official rules) to allow increasing one ability score but using another for this feat.
In fact, I'd go even further and say it would be a reasonable homebrew rule to allow any feat that would increase an ability score that's currently at 20 to apply the increase to any other ability score instead (as long as it's below 20). So in you case, you could for instance increase constitution while still using charisma for the feat.
Dungeons & Dragons isn't about math, it is about making fun characters. Complaining about not being able to have insanely high ability scores is missing the point of the game. D&D is about roleplaying and the stats will come in time, "forfeiting" a +1 is not a "big ask" it is pure logic. Work with what you have and avoid the min/maxing and you will be better off.
One feat gives you a +2. Many feats give you a +1. Some don't give you bonus. So far, the 2024 feats that don't give you a bonus are origin feats, fighting styles, and dragonmark feats (which can be considered pseudo-origin feats). We'll see if the pattern continues or changes.
Either the benefit of the feat is worth the opportunity cost of the second +1, or it's not. Independently, what is the merit of restricting the attribute? A Sharpshooter probably wants Dexterity, but maybe increasing Wisdom for a keen eye is more thematic. Locking down the attributes puts character creation on guardrails, making it harder to make a bad choice. This is not necessarily a bad thing for the game in general, but it may not be necessary or appropriate for more advanced players.
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My houserulings.
It doesn't all have to make sense, it's all made up. It's a mechanic to keep people who rolled well from ending up at 22 or 24.
It also puts guardrails on class "identity" a bit. For example, PAM is a sub-optimal choice for a Pact of the Blade warlock, because it can't boost CHA. (But maybe CHA is already 20 at level 4...)
The limit of a maximum of a 20 (or 30 for Epic Boons) already does that. Restricting the attribute serves a different purpose. It's debatable whether it is a good purpose. kenclary gives an excellent example, but also True Strike builds, Artificer Battle Smiths, and others suffer from the Attribute Restrictions and the places where it matters (Magic Initiate, for example) could be handled equally well by choosing an Attribute when you take the feat (like spellcasting from your species).
It's a design choice and it might be intended to help with the martial-caster divide. Who knows?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
This has nothing to do with that. You can't increase a score past 20 without a Boon. I do not want to get Charisma 21 by getting Inspired Leader at level 4. I am ok with increasing my WIS. I am not ok with then being forced to use WIS for the feat, because it makes no sense whatsoever.
A CHA 20, WIS 15 leader opting to inspire their allies through Wisdom is an idiot.