Where did we land on Invocation spells being Warlock spells?

For instance, if I am making a GOO Warlock, does the Silent Image I cast with Misty Visions benefit from Psychic Spells? It isn't on the Warlock spell list, and Misty Visions doesn't add Silent Image to my prepared spell list or specifically say it counts as a Warlock spell.

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. To start, choose two level 1 Warlock spells.

The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Warlock levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Warlock Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional Warlock spells until the number of spells on your list matches the number in the table. The chosen spells must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level. When you reach level 6, for example, you learn a new Warlock spell, which can be of levels 1–3.

If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.

That would be a Yes

Quote from starlinvf >>

Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature. To start, choose two level 1 Warlock spells.

The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Warlock levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Warlock Features table. Whenever that number increases, choose additional Warlock spells until the number of spells on your list matches the number in the table. The chosen spells must be of a level no higher than what’s shown in the table’s Slot Level column for your level. When you reach level 6, for example, you learn a new Warlock spell, which can be of levels 1–3.

If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.

 

That would be a Yes

The problem is that this doesn't apply to any of the Eldritch Invocations that allow you to cast specific spells, because none of them say that the spells are "always prepared".

In practice, a lot of DMs (including me) would probably let you do that with Silent Image, but I think technically it's not allowed.

Yeah, it's a case where the boilerplate wording doesn't cover a particular class feature's dynamic. I would say that RAI they should be good as spells gained via a Warlock feature.

I would be inclined to call all spells learned from invocations (other than lessons of the first ones used to get magic initiate) warlock spells for purposes of other features, but RAW they seem to be warlock class features or something, not warlock spells.

Warlock Invocations are chosen and replaced on level-up. You either have a Warlock Invocation or you don't; you can't unprepare an Invocation and prepare a new one each day. If you have a Warlock Invocation, then any spells it grants you are always prepared by definition.

Quote from The_Ace_of_Rogues >>

Yeah, it's a case where the boilerplate wording doesn't cover a particular class feature's dynamic. I would say that RAI they should be good as spells gained via a Warlock feature.

 In particular, if they're not Warlock spells, then they don't have a casting stat attached. (It mostly doesn't matter, but at least Disguise Self cares.)

Quote from RWinnie >>

For instance, if I am making a GOO Warlock, does the Silent Image I cast with Misty Visions benefit from Psychic Spells? It isn't on the Warlock spell list, and Misty Visions doesn't add Silent Image to my prepared spell list or specifically say it counts as a Warlock spell.

I'm sure Tarod will be along any minute with links to the prior discussions, but my recollection is that the RAW and even RAI are unclear, but most folks agree that spells gained through Invocations should probably be considered warlock spells

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from RWinnie >>

For instance, if I am making a GOO Warlock, does the Silent Image I cast with Misty Visions benefit from Psychic Spells? It isn't on the Warlock spell list, and Misty Visions doesn't add Silent Image to my prepared spell list or specifically say it counts as a Warlock spell.

I'm sure Tarod will be along any minute with links to the prior discussions, but my recollection is that the RAW and even RAI are unclear, but most folks agree that spells gained through Invocations should probably be considered warlock spells

 Ha xD At your service, Anton!

It's interesting that most people here answered in a similar way, which I'm glad to read, tbh.

Anyway, for the sake of fairness, and following Anton's orders :D, this is from the last thread I remember about this topic:

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

Quote from AJZamo >>

With the change of wording, does this invocation now require the spell to be learned i.e from the spell list after hitting level 5, or through other means, and prepared, before it can be used?

While I agree with the other answers I thought I might add some more clarification. The invocation allows you to cast the spell with no need of knowing it or having it prepared from another source (but you do need to provide the components as normal for casting a spell). But that also means that you don't know it or get it prepared for any other sort of use (and it doesn't count as a Warlock spell for you). So you can't cast it with any spell/pact slots you otherwise have or upcast it or any such. 

 Yeah, I know this is RAW, but personally I'm ruling Eldritch Invocations are considered Warlock spells.

But if they aren't, the Spellcasting Ability for some spells like Silent Image (Misty Visions) or Disguise Self (Mask of Many Faces) would be undefined, a Spellcasting Focus couldn't be used in some cases (e.g. Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor) or Ascendant Step (Levitate)), and some game features couldn't interact with certain spells.

This long thread might be interesting for the OP or future visitors, as it covers the debate on What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing. Worth noting that the answers are pre-5.5e SAC, so the clarification for Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells? was not taken into account in several posts.

Quote from Tarod_ >>

Quote from AJZamo>>

I realise what was causing the ambiguity for me, and to keep it incredible simple and easy I will likely just run it past my DM before I mess with it :) though I definitely see how else it is interpreted now thank you!

BUT for the clarity of where my confusion came from because I think it was not clear, there are 2 things caused some ambiguity for me.

 Frankly, the rules regarding Eldritch Invocation should be clarified. That thread I linked is proof of that.

First is that I have seen many examples so far in reading of a description for a feature or spell explicitly stating something like "the spell is always prepared..." or similar phrases - so in omitting that I was a little unsure if it was just a modifier or did indeed provide the spell as well by default, given how often this seems to be explicitly stated.

 Yeah, as Thezzaruz said, due to the lack of any mention of "spell prepared", you cannot use your own spell slots to cast or upcast it using your Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature.

The following threads might be useful for you as well:

- Fiendish Vigor (2024) 
- 2024 Warlock - Eldritch Hex is just the Hex spell?
- D&D 2024 spell level when not spending a spell slot 
- Any Official Statements on how 2024 Features/Feats/Etc granting spells work with Upcasting? 
- Ritually Casting a Spell Higher than known?

Yeah, I chose this title to basically be the Batsignal for Tarod. I think this logic tracks the most for me:

...if they aren't, the Spellcasting Ability for some spells like Silent Image (Misty Visions) or Disguise Self (Mask of Many Faces) would be undefined, a Spellcasting Focus couldn't be used in some cases (e.g. Armor of Shadows (Mage Armor) or Ascendant Step (Levitate)), and some game features couldn't interact with certain spells.

It stands to reason, I think, that this was more a gap in RAW than it was a deliberate omission by the devs. I think it's fair to say that the intention was that they'd be considered Warlock spells, even if they're not explicitly ruled as such, otherwise there would be too many undefined variables. Thanks all!

If upon discussing it fully with my dm and they remain firmly in the "no" category, i would find a different dm and campaign.

If an Eldritch Invocations gives you spells that you do not always have prepared, those spells don’t count as Warlock spells for you.

Simply being able to cast a spell without expending a spell slot doesn't make it count as a Warlock spell for you. Nor learning one does; for example with Pact of the Chain you learn the Find Familiar spell but it doesn't count as a Warlock spell for you because the feature doesn't say according to below Sage Advice.

So far only Pact of the Tome have the chosen spells prepared that will count as Warlock spell for you.

Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?

A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.

Quote from Plaguescarred>>

If an Eldritch Invocations gives you spells that you do not always have prepared, those spells don’t count as Warlock spells for you.

Quote from jl8e >>

Quote from Plaguescarred>>

If an Eldritch Invocations gives you spells that you do not always have prepared, those spells don’t count as Warlock spells for you.

So what's the spellcasting stat for them, then?

 Undetermined. Normally the Trait or Feature letting you cast spells normally provide it, if any.  Species & Feat most notably does for example.

Pact Magic say ''The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.'' And then details Spellcasting Abilty and Spellcasting Focus among other things. Essentially:

• Charisma is the spellcasting ability for your Warlock spells. → Meaning it's not if it isn't a Warlock spell for you...
• You can use an Arcane Focus as a Spellcasting Focus for your Warlock spells. → Meaning you don't if it isn't a Warlock spell for you.

Most Invocation spells don't need a spellcasting ability, to the exception of the following spells, which has been raised before in this  thread ;

Misty Vision: Silent Image  can determine that it is an illusion with a successful Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC.

Master of Myriad Forms:  Alter Self  use your spellcasting ability modifier for the attack and damage rolls.

Mask of Many Faces: Disguise Self  inspect your appearance with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC.

These Invocations don't provide a spellcasting ability. 2/3 say to use your spell save DC which is still applicable in itself. So the only problem is Alter Self  being not a Warlock Spell and it's Invocation not saying to use your spellcasting ability, but most DM likely are anyways.

This because both Pact Magic & Eldritch Invocation don't say spells you can cast count as Warlock spell for you. It only say;

Pact Magic: If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.

Please, Wishes of the Coast, add a Q&A in the SAC for this topic.

Quote from Plaguescarred>>

Quote from jl8e>>

So what's the spellcasting stat for them, then?

 Undetermined.

A rules interpretation that lands you in a spot where things actually break is a good reason not to use that interpretation

Quote from AntonSirius >>

A rules interpretation that lands you in a spot where things actually break is a good reason not to use that interpretation

It's not really an interpretation, this isn't actually a rule that's unclearly written, it's a rule that's dumb and you should houserule. 

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

It's not really an interpretation, this isn't actually a rule that's unclearly written, it's a rule that's dumb and you should houserule. 

Agreed. And when you house rule it I suggest going the route of saying "it is a warlock spell" to give you clear answers on spellcasting ability and the use of a focus but not say that "it count as always prepared" as that adds more benefits that probably aren't meant to be.

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

It's not really an interpretation, this isn't actually a rule that's unclearly written, it's a rule that's dumb and you should houserule. 

Agreed. And when you house rule it I suggest going the route of saying "it is a warlock spell" to give you clear answers on spellcasting ability and the use of a focus but not say that "it count as always prepared" as that adds more benefits that probably aren't meant to be.

 That and it solves a problem without creating more problems.  Because if the DM says "no" then what logic leaps are required to resolve the question?  

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

It's not really an interpretation, this isn't actually a rule that's unclearly written, it's a rule that's dumb and you should houserule. 

Agreed. And when you house rule it I suggest going the route of saying "it is a warlock spell" to give you clear answers on spellcasting ability and the use of a focus but not say that "it count as always prepared" as that adds more benefits that probably aren't meant to be.

With that house rule, could the Warlock then select the spell while leveling up? I guess the same question applies to Pact of the Tome spells, which does already say that they count as Warlock spells.