Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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So i want to ask how ppl think those spells work. in my opinion both of them can move even if is not written. Better you cannot move them but they can move.
1. It is not written bcs they attack the brain of the enemy, and enemy rationalizes. so to rationalize smt clamped on you it must still be there if it logically can. and specific beat general.
2. For phantasmal force the 10x10 is not its occupied space it is the maximum size of the illusion. The target is mind of creature, not actual space like web.
3. The within 5ft refers to immovable illusions like a bridge, puddle of lava, cages. Which do not move based on logic
4. look other 2nd lvl spell hold person is it weak ? if you fail save you are most propably done. If phantasmal force cannot move it becomes weak. easy or easier to ignore or bypass.
5. Now ill go to the to the other side of the river. There is also the inflict blind condition bcs of bag in your head well that makes it almost OP ( i say almost bcs hold person is freakish in terms of power). Effectively even if not truly blind and 2d8 dmg and a turn to try to dismiss spell when there is blindness/deafness although that does not require conc. so i dont know about that.
I'll stick to the main part which is movement ENTER phantasmal killer which is similar in wording, i ask around and unfortunately a lot of dm's even inside dnd beyond tell me it does not move bcs it doesnt state so RAW, worse i am told it makes no difference the dmg is passed.
What does it state though ? You tap into the nightmares of a creature you can see within range and create an illusion of its deepest fears. RAW specific beat general. Come on.... you dont see picture of your fear, you see the fear manifesting without restriction.
So if fear is smt hunting you victim is prompted to run even if it doesnt do so for reasons.
If fear is being in the middle of a volcanoe erupting. You are going there frodo style magma flows and rock is hurled, eagles aint coming for ya. prop you dont move a muscle. So it does make a difference.
what say you ? i say i want sage advice on that. mby sensory conditions which brain manifests and not physical ones are justified too in the spell (refering to blind) or whatever any1 imagine.
my personal interpretation of force is it is animated as is reasonable for the phenomenon, but doesn't actually provide any impairment other than the obvious ones [someone on the other side of an Illusionary wall would gain full cover benefits (so the bag doesn't blind but just everyone has full cover), if there's a din then others can't be heard, etc] so if you try something that would provide an impairment normally [ball and chain, stocks, iron maiden, etc] it doesn't actually cause restraint or similar conditions [strong against immobile enemies ig, but I think most enemies would struggle against restraints like stocks and then immediately break free]; for the bag thing intuitively it would be able to stay on until exiting the full spell AoE
force isn't weak per say, you can still box them in with a hazard they wouldn't want to cross and then just range blast them while they have to chuck pebbles or something, but it's not game breaking like if you were able to actually brazen bull someone
the phantasmal killer stuff seems to just be nominative, even if it doesn't move they still experience the effects of the spell the same as if it did, since the spell targets the creature and not an area. If the dm doesn't let it move [so long as it doesn't do extra stuff not in the spell description] then they're not really changing anything other than making your kill descriptions less cool.
of course obviously dm treatment of illusions is notoriously varied, so talk to them before building around what you think is a reasonable interpretation
Phantasmal Killer is the easy one: the actual illusion is just flavor text. It's a spell that does damage and applies disadvantage on ability checks and attacks; the location of the illusion is both unspecified and irrelevant.
Phantasmal Force is the messy one, because the spell really doesn't give any guidelines about what "treats the illusion as real" is supposed to mean, other than indicating how much damage it does. Presumably it doesn't apply status effects, but if you create an illusion of a force cage around the target, are they trapped? Seems a bit strong for a second level spell.
Phantasm spells are very weak considering the save and how often those saves happen.
Phantasmal force MUST fit inside a 10 ft cube. Not much room for a fireball.
The real power in a Phantasmal Force spell is its malleability, its ability to be almost anything you need against a humanoid.
From what I understand PhF doesn't kill but just renders unconscious.
Its best used as a perfect way to block a hallway or tunnel. Setting up an ambush or escape route.
The spell does NOT say that the effect must on the target but must be a 10 foot cube 60 feet from you that the target can see.
This is not correct. The damage dealt by both of these spells is as lethal as any other damage, and there's nothing in either spell about it knocking anyone Unconscious.
pronouns: he/she/they
I mean, the bridge example indicates it doesn't create a solid surface, so presumably if you just try to throw up a solid barrier they physically test, they'll go through it and somehow rationalize why they're able to. Something like a wall of fire would likely be a more plausible obstacle, but Darkness is also 2nd level and produces the same basic mechanical effect on the target- heavily obscuring an area- except covering a much smaller area, only affecting one creature, and having a free save at end of turn to end it.
There is no restriction given for the location of the cube. The Range parameter of 60 feet restricts where the target creature can be located when the spell is cast.
Phantasmal killer: The location is specified you target a creature. The illusion is in its head. its nowhere and everywhere. But what it sees has relevance on how it will react. Where is hold person?
Phantasmal force: For your example. The spell cannot lock you inside a cage if you try examine the cage you will get clues to disbelief. If you try ram the cage, you will end up on the other side of it np. Hold person on the other hand will not ask you anything make you a statue and till you get the save you get crited and between those 2 you rly thing phantasmal force is strong for lvl 2?
For Phantasmal Killer, what it sees does not change anything about how the creature reacts. Nothing in the spell states that it believes the illusion is real. Nor does it state how they could attempt to determine if it is real. The spell only does what it says it does, and it says it does psychic damage and gives them disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks. The way to think about this spell (in my opinion) is you are simply forcing them to see what they fear most, and it distracts and disturbs them so much that they have disadvantage and it hurts them mentally. Maybe you are forcing them to remember when their brother was slain by goblins, or imagining their wife being attacked by a Beholder. They don't actually believe it is actually happening, but the thought of their greatest fear fills their mind and causes the effects of the spell. They won't run from the illusion or try to attack the illusion, because they spell doesn't say they believe it to be real.
ok i accept that. it seems correct raw although it can still move!! i havent noticed the part about the victim believing the illusion nor has any1 in the past brought this forward. so now i take it as the victim has a mental breakdown and the illusion is not out there somewhere but is strictly in its head. The victim sees the wolf hunting it even if it turns its back which is not obligated to do at all or it closes its eyes. But the damn wolf is moving in its head! its not a picture! but that indeed makes no difference.
Phantasmal Force and other illusions like it are always weird. It relies fully on how the DM runs the NPC and what they let you get away with. Like if its a cage, sure probably pretty easy for the DM, they decide if the creature stuck would try to break free or not and how they would do it. If they try to bend the bars, their hands pass through and they rationalize damn my hands slipped, if they shoulder ram it they are on the other side of it, if they misty step they are out. If it was a force cage and they recognize it as one, they might not even try force as they know it can't be broken only teleported out of or disintegrated.
But if you are like a steel box filled with spikes closes over their head and locks in place. Are they just blind and taking 2d8 a round unless they take the study action and make the save? It would move with them, any attempt to pry it off would fail and they would rationalize it. Seems a bit much for a level 2 spell. No save blindness, they need an action to attempt to save. Or do they see through it no problem and think man there is a crack in the box I can see fine. If they can see through it do the spikes still cause 2d8 a round.
And then the whole while affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real and rationalizes any illogical outcomes from interacting with it. How far does that go. Is there a point where you auto save. Like using the force cage only you see it, and you act trapped your party walks through it no problem you may yell how did you walk through that, and they are like what there is nothing there. Oops you failed that study action I guess you are still trapped. You have to treat it as real. Is there a point where you fail the save but get to say even though I can't see through it, I know its an illusion. Would you be irritated as a PC if something that was obviously an illusion you could not treat as such. And do you hold the enemy monsters/npcs to the same standard.
Ofc illusions are heavily dependent on dm as of now. i wish that wasn't the case in such extent as in my xperience dm illusions are superstrong whereas players illusions come of usually in the weak side of things. Although i have never used the blind action as to appease dms. I believe the spell is capable of inflicting that to you. I mean you cannot see past the bridge or a solid wall as i understand it. But then again mby the bridge in spell example is one with planks that you can see through. About balance i do not know study action is better for victim than end of turn. Blindness does not require conc. Hold person is absolutely bonkers only limited by the humanoid prerequisite. For your last ex. I would give npc high chance even if he failed save to try and pass himself since he saw the others do it. Anyway a good dm would use int or instict of victim. A lion would propably atk the cage. A thief would try to pick the lock. And when not sure or you have 2-3 probabilities roll a dice... Finally what my main concern of this post is, movement and if you take also that away from the spell i feel it underperforms or becomes very limited. and while i got answered for phantasmal killer. Noone has given as of yet a good answer for phantasmal force.
The illusion that is created by Phantasmal Force does not move its location nor can its location be moved. It that were possible, the spell description would say so.
Agree with up2ng here. The illusion from Phantasmal Force does not move from the spot it is "conjured", and we can tell that for a few reasons.
The first is that the spell doesn't give any indication of how or when the caster can move the illusion. Illusion spells in which you can move the illusion dictate when and how far you can move them. Phantasmal Force does not.
Now that wouldn't in and of itself confirm that the illusion doesn't move. It could be the case that it moves if you create the illusion of something that can move, such as a creature. However the spell says this: "An affected target can even take damage from the illusion if the phantasm represents a dangerous creature or hazard. On each of your turns, such a phantasm can deal 2d8 Psychic damage to the target if it is in the phantasm’s area or within 5 feet of the phantasm. The target perceives the damage as a type appropriate to the illusion."
The fact that it calls out distance to the phantasm means that it cannot move from where you originally cast it. Otherwise the distance wouldn't matter, because if it was a phantasm of a creature that would potentially attack the individual, then it would be always within range to attack. The fact that it must be within 5 feet of the phantasm, then the phantasm must exist in a specified place, which in this case is the 10ft cube where you cast it.
that i do not accept as said in the description. that is the target : You attempt to craft an illusion in the mind of a creature you can see within range. not a place on the map. it does not dictate anything about movement bcs caster does not move the illusion. i think the victim rationalizes that moving or clamped creatures(or whatever) will move. whereas immovable illusions such as a cage will not. and enter the need of specifying how far the phantasm deal dmg. the 10ft cube is restraint on how big is the illusion you conjure in victims mind bcs that illusion is there too as is phantsmal killer not on the ground somewhere. and as phantasmal killer moves. whereas if cast on a vampire lets say it would see an immovable sun. the fear of the a wolf hunting you or the scene of the death of your brother would be animated, not a picture even though as i admitted you wont believe it as real so it wont have effect on your reactions.
It says "you craft an illusion in the mind of a creature..." because only that creature can see the illusion. It is not a standard "projection" illusion, like a hologram, that can be seen by anyone. It is specific to one target, thus it is in their mind.
The fact that the spell doesn't give any indication on how far the illusion can move, or how quickly, even outside of the control of the caster, is a good indication that it does not move. How would you know if the phantasm is within 5ft of the target? What if the target teleports out of range? Does the illusion teleport with them? Can it move fast enough to be within 5ft of them in one round? Can the illusion even exist beyond the original 60ft range of the spell? We don't have any way to judge this, because the spell was not created with the intent of the illusion moving from its 10ft cube. A 2nd level spell that can cause 2d8 physic damage every turn without a bonus action or action and can also follow the target around indefinitely would be far too strong for that level.
For example, the spell Flaming Sphere. It does 2d6 damage on a failed save (less damage), fire damage (which more creatures are likely to be resistant to), takes a Dex save (which more creatures at lower level have higher Dex saves than Int saves), and requires a bonus action to move it 30ft, while still requiring the target to be within 5ft to take the damage. It's also concentration. So why would anyone use Flaming Sphere when a much better spell like Phantasmal Force exists? I guess with Flaming Sphere you can technically target more than one creature, however a creature has to end its turn in the space to take the damage, or have the sphere move into its space (however it stops moving once it encounters one creatures, soo...). It makes the most sense in a comparison of 2nd Level Spells that Phantasmal Force does not move from its original space, and for that it gets more damage, of a damage type that is not resisted as much, with a save that isn't usually as high as Dex, and also can simulate a barrier or change to the environment. The trade off needs to happen, otherwise it is in general just a much better spell than Flaming Sphere at level 2.
I agree with this. My interpretation is that the first sentence is essentially flavor text which introduces the spell conceptually and then this is followed by the mechanics of the actual spell effect. The 2024 rules cleaned up a lot of that so that we don't see that very often anymore, but it still happens. With this spell, you target a creature and cause them to perceive an illusion that you create and place into the world.
Yes, it can.
There is no restriction given for the location of the cube. The Range parameter of 60 feet restricts where the target creature can be located when the spell is cast. That's where the spell effect originates. But this aspect of the effect -- the illusion itself -- could be anywhere.
The concept of a phantasmal object is something akin to a hallucination. For example, you could create an oasis in the middle of a desert 500 feet away from the target creature that the creature can just barely see but is of course not really there and such an illusion might lead it in the wrong direction.