Question About Initiative in Surprise Situations

I just started with the latest D&D rules and I have a question about how supprise is suposed to be handled. 
The basic rules sate:
Surprise. If a combatant is surprised by combat starting, that combatant has Disadvantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
And in the Dungeon Masters section it states:
In any situation where a character’s actions initiate combat, you can give the acting character Advantage on their Initiative roll. For example, if a conversation with an NPC is cut short because the Sorcerer is convinced that NPC is a Doppelganger and targets it with a Chromatic Orb spell, everyone rolls Initiative, and the Sorcerer does so with Advantage. If the doppelganger rolls well, it might still act before the Sorcerer’s spell goes off, reflecting the monster’s ability to anticipate the spell.

So I first imagined that if the PCs were ambushed by Bandits for example that:
The bandits would all be holding some kind of attack for a signal or the leader to attack.
At the signal all those attacks would trigger.
Then everyone would roll initiative with the PCs having Disadvantage.
Combat would then proceed through initiative order.

But of course this makes it very possible the Bandits would get two rounds of attacks off before anything but a reaction could be taken against them. 
OTOH if the process is suposed to go more like:
Everyone rolls initiative with the PCs having disadvantage and the Bandits having advantage.
Then do we skip past anyone who goes before the bandits because they have no idea combat is even happening and end up with just:
The bandits go, then the party goes in initiative order?
Or do we tell the party that combat is starting even though the characters have already failed to see the ambush coming and let a particularly lucky rolling PC go before the ambush even happens? That doesn't make any sense to me. 

How do you interpret these rules? How do you handle surprise in your games?
Obviously I could just house rule surprise situations to either be the person starting it goes first, followed by anyone holding an action for that to happen, and then everyone else proceeds in initiative order, or that the PCs/NPCs doing the ambushing get to attack and then everyone rolls initiative with the ambushed party having disadvantage. But I am interested in how others interpret the RAW. 

So in the scenario I described would the process go:
Everyone rolls initiative with the PCs having disadvantage (possibly the bandits having advantage as well).
Players are told combat is starting despite their characters failing their perception rolls and each person acts in initiative order. Therefore a PC might go before the bandit they had not spotted.

Or would it go:
Everyone rolls initiative with the PCs having disadvantage.
If a PC goes first they can't possibly know combat is starting so they go on delay.
The command is given by the bandits triggering all the bandits attacks.
The PCs go in initiative order following the bandits.

The rules just don't make sense to me. If the bandits hide check was successful how do I narrate a PC going before them? 
If the characters who roll well are going to go after the ambushers in intuitive order why roll with disadvantage at all?

It honestly feels like someone just shoehorned advantage and disadvantage in because the mechanic exists without actually thinking about how ambushes actually unfold. 

ETA
Whoops. Delay doesn't seem to exist in this edition and holding an action works differently than it did before so it seems like bandits could hold ranged attacks for a trigger but not move and attack on a trigger. 

Wow. That seems like an incredibly silly way to handle it to me. 
Like if the bandits are totally undetected by the party and one PC gets lucky they can go ahead and cast mage armor on themselves or throw up a wall of force or something before they even know they are under attack. And the same can happen in reverse if a BBEG gets lucky despite the PCs sneaking up on them with invisibility and silence or whatever.
And narratively I just tell the party to roll initiative, and say ok player 1 your character is first up in combat... yes you are in combat now... what do you want to do?

I can't imagine playing that way being much fun at all for anyone. Definitely feels like using the advantage/disadvantage mechanic even though it is not appropriate for the task at hand. 

I feel a house rule coming on. 

I agree having to absorb two rounds of surprise attacks or being able to dish such out would be problematic. 

I suspect I will just house rule something like:
The person who starts combat goes first.
Any of their allies who is aware combat is going to start can hold an action to be triggered when the initiator starts combat so they go second.
Everyone else then goes in intitive order. 

Basically the attackers just wait and then all get reset to the top of the initiative when they spring their attack. If a single character starts shit without others knowing they are going to, they go first and everyone else goes in initiative order afterward. 

Narratively it makes a lot more sense to me. 

Both sides roll initiative.   If player A has the highest initiative and goes 1st, it is before the ambush starts, either they do nothing and/or hold for their turn as they can't see a target, then when the next turn start, they can now actually do something.  So they attacked for one round, not two.

Sometimes ambushes don't work out as planned.  The ambusher coughs or wheezes or is startled by an spider/fire ant/mosquito/snake that goes by or sunlight/starlight sparkles off of a piece of equipment etc.  If Player A has the highest initiative and goes 1st, they may actually get the jump on the target and can do "something" 1st.  Before the ambushers

The advantage/disadvantage is just that.  It adjusts the odds that the ambushers attack first, but in that split second before, that may not be the reality.

Only knowing the 2024 rules, how would the bandit ambusher get 2 rounds of attacks?  I can't figure that out?

When I played last century, the DM would know our initiative and roll for us.  That way the party would be surprised, as we did not roll.

There are some threads that might be helpful for you Realityhackphotos, as they have interesting ideas about your scenario and the "issue" you're commenting on:

• Invisibility and Surprise
• Triggered ready action, initiative, subsequent combat
• Would a hidden enemy get an attack in before combat starts, if he was readying an action for it?
• Surprise enemies mechanics question

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Yes, a PC might go before an enemy they don't know is there, but (as always) what they can actually do on their turn is limited by the information they have at the time. Attacking someone you can't see incurs disadvantage, and you can't attack someone at all if you don't even know they exist.

 Presumably, the enemies start their attack, but because that PC is so alert, they see it coming before the bandits actually get an attack off.

"Both sides roll initiative.   If player A has the highest initiative and goes 1st, it is before the ambush starts, either they do nothing and/or hold for their turn as they can't see a target, then when the next turn start, they can now actually do something.  So they attacked for one round, not two."

If that is how it works it is totally unnecessary to do the advantage disadvantage thing described because anyone higher than the bandits can't do squat as they don't know they are being attacked yet. The bandits all hold an action to attack on a signal... initiative continues with the PCs doing nothing till the signal is given. 
Signal is given, bandits held actions all trigger so they are all reset to that point in the initiative, then the PCs get to go afterward in initiative order. So exactly what I suggested as a house rule but with extra rolling of dice for disadvantage.Nothing actually changes... unless you let the PCs actually act as if they know they are in combat. Which I have an issue with because that is explicitly what perception rolls, and stealth rolls are for. 

--EDIT TO ADD --
Whoops holding an action doesn't work that way any more. So I guess it would actually work like:
Roll initiative
Go through the order either with the people being ambushed being unable to do anything but what they were already up to in the scene (realistic) or able to act without actually knowing why (I cast mage armor on myself because I sense we rolled initiative).
The ambushers hold actions to attack on command
Command is given
Ambusher attacks go off (arrows fly)
Proceed in initiative order going forward. 
So depending upon when the signal is given the ambushers could get off their initial attacks and then some or all of them go again right away. 

"ometimes ambushes don't work out as planned.  The ambusher coughs or wheezes or is startled by an spider/fire ant/mosquito/snake that goes by or sunlight/starlight sparkles off of a piece of equipment etc.  If Player A has the highest initiative and goes 1st, they may actually get the jump on the target and can do "something" 1st.  Before the ambushers"
Those are examples of failure of a stealth roll or a very high perception roll NOT initiative IMO. For example if the ambushers had invisibility and silence cast on them those wouldn't happen. I have no problem with the fact that the ambushers can fail their stealth checks. I have an issue with them passing their stealth checks and then the PCs seeing them anyway. Or the opposite where the PC passes their stealth check but the BBEG gets to act first anyway. 

"Presumably, the enemies start their attack, but because that PC is so alert, they see it coming before the bandits actually get an attack off."
Except that narrative doesn't work as well when the PC just rolled a 1 on their perception to spot the ambush. 

Reading the other related threads on similar topics it seems like the designers decided to vastly decrease the ability of anyone to use surprise in the game. There is always a chance the person being surprised will NOT be the first to act even if the ambusher was completely successful in hiding. But of course traps still automatically go off before the character gets a chance to act if they don't notice the trap. This is highly inconsistent and narratively terrible IMO. Characters can act before they know they are under attack even when the opponent is entirely uncensored in any way. If the characters are facing off and someone goes to throw a punch or pull a sword I could see an argument for a prepared character beating their opponent to the punch but when the party is just traveling say and gets ambushed, and absolutely does not spot the ambush? No. Just seems silly. Also it seems like it really downplays the use of stealth and ambush tactics all together for the PCs as well. Like why plan an complicated difficult ambush if even when you pull it off an NPC can get lucky and largely if not entirely negate your advantage?

Definitely going to discuss a house rule with my players. RAW just doesn't sound fun or narratively coherent. Just feels like they needed to force advantage/disadvantage in for no reason.
ETA I also don't like that a character who rolls well on initiative when being ambushed might end up going 'last' because they don't know what is happening during their turn so they basically don't get to go during the first round. Not sure I like the lack of a delay action either. Like why can't I just see what happens and jump in resetting my initiative if I don't want to do anything else on my turn. 

Quote from TarodNet >>

There are some threads that might be helpful for you Realityhackphotos, as they have interesting ideas about your scenario and the "issue" you're commenting on:

• Invisibility and Surprise
• Triggered ready action, initiative, subsequent combat
• Would a hidden enemy get an attack in before combat starts, if he was readying an action for it?
• Surprise enemies mechanics question

 Thanks. Interesting reading. 
BTW that last link seems to be from the previous rule set. 

Quote from Realityhackphotos >>

[...] Thanks. Interesting reading. 
BTW that last link seems to be from the previous rule set. 

 Yeah, sorry, I didn't mention it. It starts with the 2014 rules, then the later posts are about the 2024 edition.

EDIT: for clarity.

 A simple way for DM to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one is to use Initiative Score instead of rolling;

Ambusher: 15 + DEX mod

Surprised: 05 + DEX mod

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

 A simple way for DM to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one is to use Initiative Score instead of rolling;

Ambusher: 15 + DEX mod

Surprised: 05 + DEX mod

 True but of course that puts the party in the same initiative amongst themselves at all times. Personally I like a little randomness in initiative though D20+DEX Mod is a little on the too random side IMO. A difference of 10 would almost always guarantee the ambushing party went first though. Still not convinced this is in any way a good design for how to handle surprise. And I am still a bit surprised their is no mention of being able to go on delay in this edition. That seems very basic as well. 

Quote from Realityhackphotos >>

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

 A simple way for DM to ensure a invisible creature acts before surprised one is to use Initiative Score instead of rolling;

Ambusher: 15 + DEX mod

Surprised: 05 + DEX mod

 True but of course that puts the party in the same initiative amongst themselves at all times. Personally I like a little randomness in initiative though D20+DEX Mod is a little on the too random side IMO. A difference of 10 would almost always guarantee the ambushing party went first though. Still not convinced this is in any way a good design for how to handle surprise. And I am still a bit surprised their is no mention of being able to go on delay in this edition. That seems very basic as well. 

 I also generally prefer some randomness, except when i don't want surprised creature to act before hidden creature ambush them. In this case, i prefer Initiative Score over arbitrarily establishing initiative order myself.

The Delay action is gone since 2014 now Ready is the only way to postpone actions.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Yes, a PC might go before an enemy they don't know is there, but (as always) what they can actually do on their turn is limited by the information they have at the time. Attacking someone you can't see incurs disadvantage, and you can't attack someone at all if you don't even know they exist.

 The things I don't like about this are that 1. A lucky character could throw up their defenses like casting mage armor or something to give them temporary hit points without actually spotting that there was any reason to which I feel is just metagaming in disguise, OR the character who was lucky and rolled a super good initiative gets bypassed in the first round of combat entirely as there is no way to go on delay in this edition as I read the rules. Which would mean if they chose not to metagame and just continued walking down the trail or whatever they wouldn't get to act in the first round. That doesn't feel like a good way to resolve a super good roll. 

Quote from Plaguescarred >> I also generally prefer some randomness, except when i don't want surprised creature to act before hidden creature ambush them. In this case, i prefer Initiative Score over arbitrarily establishing initiative order myself.

The Delay action is gone since 2014 now Ready is the only way to postpone actions.

 I suspect I will also house rule that back in. The lack of this ability seems very limiting to me. It was a great way for someone high in the initiative to just say 'I don't want to act yet' but not necessarily lose out on acting during that round. It was also handy on the occasions where someone was called away from the table for an important phone call or something. 
I don't seen any narrative rationale for not being able to say 'after x goes I will jump in' instead of just doing something immediately. It also was honestly not complicated at all to work with. 

Quote from Plaguescarred >

 I also generally prefer some randomness, except when i don't want surprised creature to act before hidden creature ambush them. In this case, i prefer Initiative Score over arbitrarily establishing initiative order myself.

 I figure just having the ambushers go first and then letting the victims of the ambush go on rolled initiative will probably be the best way to go as it stays consistent (ie not switching back and forth between rolled initiative and initiative score) and would mean the victims of the ambush would not be in the same order every ambush. 
It also works well if one character decides to haul off and start combat without warning anyone. They go first, then everyone else goes on rolled initiative wither ally or foe. 

I am really struggling to understand why the game designers made this choice. It really feels like they shoehorned Advantage/Disadvantage in for the sake of utilizing the mechanic where they were not needed. 

Quote from Realityhackphotos >>

"Presumably, the enemies start their attack, but because that PC is so alert, they see it coming before the bandits actually get an attack off."
Except that narrative doesn't work as well when the PC just rolled a 1 on their perception to spot the ambush. 

 

The thing you have to remember is that everything in a combat round is essentially happening simultaneously, within the same six-second period. Doing rounds in sequence is just to make it easier mechanically. A PC going first on the first round, even when they've been surprised, just means their reflexes were a tiny bit quicker, or they were a tiny bit paranoid and expecting danger, or whatever

If they want to burn a 5th-level spell slot to cast wall of force, before they know the nature of the threat or even where it's coming from, good luck to them

DM: OK, everyone roll for initiative
Party: What??? Oh crap, OK
Wizard: Ha! Nat 20
DM: OK, you're up first
Wizard: Do I see what's attacking us?
DM: You already beefed your Perception check when you walked in
Wizard: Right, right. Fine, screw it. I cast Wall of Force and create a dome around us
DM: Huh, interesting. OK. Next up is the gelatinous cube you failed you notice, and which you've now trapped yourself inside a dome with...