If you counterspell (with a 3rd level slot) a fireball cast with a 4th level slot is it automatically countered because fireball is a 3rd level spell, or do you roll a check because it was cast with a 4th level slot?
This is kind of interesting because it means that if you upcast a spell that doesn't actually get any more powerful by being cast with a higher level spell slot, it's still treated as a higher level spell for the purpose of things like Counterspell.
Yup. Watch out for Globe of Invulnerability though. That's one of the very few instances where a rule cares about the spell's lowest possible level instead.
But does the target KNOW what level spell slot Ive used?
Example: Im fighting a wizard with my wizard. My opponent has a Staff of the Magi (and has used it, lets say its sitting at 45 charges). I cast a 6th level lightning bolt at her - does she know its 6th level, or must she gamble what level Ive used? I ask because she can "catch" or absorb my spell into her Staff. BUT if she thinks its 3rd level she will absorb it...but a 6th level will bring the Staff over 50 spell levels and it will trigger a retributive strike, killing her (or sending her into another plane).
So...when we cast at higher levels, do other spell casters know what it is exactly being cast? Or must they guess?
But does the target KNOW what level spell slot Ive used?
Example: Im fighting a wizard with my wizard. My opponent has a Staff of the Magi (and has used it, lets say its sitting at 45 charges). I cast a 6th level lightning bolt at her - does she know its 6th level, or must she gamble what level Ive used? I ask because she can "catch" or absorb my spell into her Staff. BUT if she thinks its 3rd level she will absorb it...but a 6th level will bring the Staff over 50 spell levels and it will trigger a retributive strike, killing her (or sending her into another plane).
So...when we cast at higher levels, do other spell casters know what it is exactly being cast? Or must they guess?
There aren't any rules that say other creatures know what spell you're casting or its level. They do see you perform the components then the effect, that is it.
You can identify a spell using the rules in Xanathar's. Basically, use a reaction to make an intelligece(arcana) check with the DC being 15+spell level. You get advantage on it if they cast it as the same class as you. At that point, you would be able to identify the spell, but ironically you'd not be able to counterspell it since you used up your reaction to figure out the spell instead of countering it.
It's pretty funny having a scenario where the bbeg casts a spell and everyone tells the wizard to counter it and he wants to make sure he knows the spell first, and while giant meteors begin to fall to the ground the wizard goes "I got it! He's casting meteor swarm!"
You can identify a spell using the rules in Xanathar's. Basically, use a reaction to make an intelligece(arcana) check with the DC being 15+spell level. You get advantage on it if they cast it as the same class as you. At that point, you would be able to identify the spell, but ironically you'd not be able to counterspell it since you used up your reaction to figure out the spell instead of countering it.
It's pretty funny having a scenario where the bbeg casts a spell and everyone tells the wizard to counter it and he wants to make sure he knows the spell first, and while giant meteors begin to fall to the ground the wizard goes "I got it! He's casting meteor swarm!"
Aye. The way I'd rule it is they can identify and counterspell on the same reaction but, the counterspell's "auto-negate" is a level less (so if using 3rd level counterspell it auto-nulls the 2nd level or less spells and you have to roll for 3rd or higher). Or somehing like that.
This reminds me of some episodes of Dice, Camera, Action. Spoilers ahead for anyone who cares.
At one point they were on a ship being buffeted by a storm, and a couple of Storm Giants showed up and began casting Control Weather to save the ship. The party had no idea the giants were friendly, so the Sorcerer and Bard used Counter Spell on them. Much chaos ensued.
At a much later point, they were on a sinking submarine, and an enemy drow spellcaster appeared and began casting a spell. Not wanting to make the same mistake twice, the Sorcerer decided not to Counter Spell the drow... and so the drow cast Cloudkill inside the sub. Whoops.
I just let players know the spells for practical reasons. As a DM, I don't want every single spell cast to take a back-and-forth - me saying "The enemy is casting a spell! Wizard, do you want to counterspell it, not knowing what it is?" I'd rather just go "the enemy casts blindness." (next turn) "he casts fireball" (next turn) "he casts whatever" and let the player interrupt me with "I counterspell that!" if they want to.
I know that RAW I should be hiding what spell it is until it takes effect, but it just makes running a spellcaster combat so annoying.
I find this entire thread interesting because it just, makes sense.
unless the spellcaster is of the same class and has the same spell, I can’t imagine they would just KNOW what the spell, and spell level it’s cast at, is. So then it’s like, do you counter, or identify it.
and this makes a ton of sense to me, as too often I see combat slowed and dragged down into “counterspell battles” when there’s multiple spellcasters on each side.
i never realized how “standard” it was for this situation to just be Meta’d.
Not knowing what spell is being cast protects spellcasters (mostly NPC's) from having their biggest best spells countered because the wizard knows that the cleric casted spirit guardian (which would be odd for a random wizard to just know like he has experience with it) and knows exactly what spell level to cast counterspell. That makes counterspell, imo, busted and prioritizes wizards in the later levels as they become the bane of physical and magical enemies while brawlers become neither.
I don't want every single spell cast to take a back-and-forth - me saying "The enemy is casting a spell! Wizard, do you want to counterspell it, not knowing what it is?"
I deal with this by saying, "The foe casts a spell." then silently counting to 5. If, in that 5 seconds, no-one said "counterspell" then the spell goes off and I continue "It was a fireball, can everyone please roll a Dexterity save." After that, if a player goes, "Can I counterspell it?" the answer is "not any more, you're a bit late."
But does the target KNOW what level spell slot Iv'e used?
The way my DM handles it, and I agree with, is that you do not know what level slot is being used. Adds a bit of tension and strategy to Counterspell. They led with a L5 fireball, will they do the same for second round? Do I use an L5 CS and be sure of blocking or take a risk. If they followed with a L3 instead I could end up without a L5 slot when needed.
As a DM, I would probably drop a hint with how I describe the spell. Like for an upcast Fireball: "The enemy makes an arcane gesture as a bead of fire streaks out to explode. Its seems hotter and faster than other times you have seen this spell."
And if the wizard goes to counterspell and has a slot free that could counter it, "You fell like more arcane energy is needed to negate the effects. Would you like to expend a higher level slot?" If they say yes, the expend the appropriate slot, otherwise, or if they don't have a slot high enough, they have to roll.
That assumes the wizard recognizes the spell as fireball, which I understand is reasonable, but don't forget delayed fireball is a spell with a higher level and looks exactly the same when beginning to cast which might be fun.
"The flaming bead approaches you and nestle itself in the center of the room" "I cast counterspell" "The counterspell fails to remove the bead, which sits there, alright fighter you're up" "Wait, what?"
That assumes the wizard recognizes the spell as fireball, which I understand is reasonable, but don't forget delayed fireball is a spell with a higher level and looks exactly the same when beginning to cast which might be fun.
"The flaming bead approaches you and nestle itself in the center of the room" "I cast counterspell" "The counterspell fails to remove the bead, which sits there, alright fighter you're up" "Wait, what?"
...They would still get an ability check to counterspell it even if it's higher level.
You attempt to interrupt a creature in the process of casting a spell. If the creature is casting a spell of 3rd level or lower, its spell fails and has no effect. If it is casting a spell of 4th level or higher, make an ability check using your spellcasting ability. The DC equals 10 + the spell's level. On a success, the creature's spell fails and has no effect.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the interrupted spell has no effect if its level is less than or equal to the level of the spell slot you used.
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If you counterspell (with a 3rd level slot) a fireball cast with a 4th level slot is it automatically countered because fireball is a 3rd level spell, or do you roll a check because it was cast with a 4th level slot?
The fireball would be considered a lvl 4 spell.
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To give Wysperra's answer some context:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#CastingaSpellataHigherLevel
This is kind of interesting because it means that if you upcast a spell that doesn't actually get any more powerful by being cast with a higher level spell slot, it's still treated as a higher level spell for the purpose of things like Counterspell.
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Yup. Watch out for Globe of Invulnerability though. That's one of the very few instances where a rule cares about the spell's lowest possible level instead.
But does the target KNOW what level spell slot Ive used?
Example: Im fighting a wizard with my wizard. My opponent has a Staff of the Magi (and has used it, lets say its sitting at 45 charges). I cast a 6th level lightning bolt at her - does she know its 6th level, or must she gamble what level Ive used? I ask because she can "catch" or absorb my spell into her Staff. BUT if she thinks its 3rd level she will absorb it...but a 6th level will bring the Staff over 50 spell levels and it will trigger a retributive strike, killing her (or sending her into another plane).
So...when we cast at higher levels, do other spell casters know what it is exactly being cast? Or must they guess?
There aren't any rules that say other creatures know what spell you're casting or its level. They do see you perform the components then the effect, that is it.
You can identify a spell using the rules in Xanathar's. Basically, use a reaction to make an intelligece(arcana) check with the DC being 15+spell level. You get advantage on it if they cast it as the same class as you. At that point, you would be able to identify the spell, but ironically you'd not be able to counterspell it since you used up your reaction to figure out the spell instead of countering it.
It's pretty funny having a scenario where the bbeg casts a spell and everyone tells the wizard to counter it and he wants to make sure he knows the spell first, and while giant meteors begin to fall to the ground the wizard goes "I got it! He's casting meteor swarm!"
Aye. The way I'd rule it is they can identify and counterspell on the same reaction but, the counterspell's "auto-negate" is a level less (so if using 3rd level counterspell it auto-nulls the 2nd level or less spells and you have to roll for 3rd or higher). Or somehing like that.
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This reminds me of some episodes of Dice, Camera, Action. Spoilers ahead for anyone who cares.
At one point they were on a ship being buffeted by a storm, and a couple of Storm Giants showed up and began casting Control Weather to save the ship. The party had no idea the giants were friendly, so the Sorcerer and Bard used Counter Spell on them. Much chaos ensued.
At a much later point, they were on a sinking submarine, and an enemy drow spellcaster appeared and began casting a spell. Not wanting to make the same mistake twice, the Sorcerer decided not to Counter Spell the drow... and so the drow cast Cloudkill inside the sub. Whoops.
I just let players know the spells for practical reasons. As a DM, I don't want every single spell cast to take a back-and-forth - me saying "The enemy is casting a spell! Wizard, do you want to counterspell it, not knowing what it is?" I'd rather just go "the enemy casts blindness." (next turn) "he casts fireball" (next turn) "he casts whatever" and let the player interrupt me with "I counterspell that!" if they want to.
I know that RAW I should be hiding what spell it is until it takes effect, but it just makes running a spellcaster combat so annoying.
I find this entire thread interesting because it just, makes sense.
unless the spellcaster is of the same class and has the same spell, I can’t imagine they would just KNOW what the spell, and spell level it’s cast at, is. So then it’s like, do you counter, or identify it.
and this makes a ton of sense to me, as too often I see combat slowed and dragged down into “counterspell battles” when there’s multiple spellcasters on each side.
i never realized how “standard” it was for this situation to just be Meta’d.
Blank
Not knowing what spell is being cast protects spellcasters (mostly NPC's) from having their biggest best spells countered because the wizard knows that the cleric casted spirit guardian (which would be odd for a random wizard to just know like he has experience with it) and knows exactly what spell level to cast counterspell. That makes counterspell, imo, busted and prioritizes wizards in the later levels as they become the bane of physical and magical enemies while brawlers become neither.
The spell's level refers to the spell slot of which it is cast at. Fireball is a 3rd level spell, however, it can also be a 4th, 5th, and so on.
Kieran McMillan
I deal with this by saying, "The foe casts a spell." then silently counting to 5. If, in that 5 seconds, no-one said "counterspell" then the spell goes off and I continue "It was a fireball, can everyone please roll a Dexterity save." After that, if a player goes, "Can I counterspell it?" the answer is "not any more, you're a bit late."
The players do the same to me, of course.
The way my DM handles it, and I agree with, is that you do not know what level slot is being used. Adds a bit of tension and strategy to Counterspell. They led with a L5 fireball, will they do the same for second round? Do I use an L5 CS and be sure of blocking or take a risk. If they followed with a L3 instead I could end up without a L5 slot when needed.
As a DM, I would probably drop a hint with how I describe the spell. Like for an upcast Fireball: "The enemy makes an arcane gesture as a bead of fire streaks out to explode. Its seems hotter and faster than other times you have seen this spell."
And if the wizard goes to counterspell and has a slot free that could counter it, "You fell like more arcane energy is needed to negate the effects. Would you like to expend a higher level slot?" If they say yes, the expend the appropriate slot, otherwise, or if they don't have a slot high enough, they have to roll.
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That assumes the wizard recognizes the spell as fireball, which I understand is reasonable, but don't forget delayed fireball is a spell with a higher level and looks exactly the same when beginning to cast which might be fun.
"The flaming bead approaches you and nestle itself in the center of the room" "I cast counterspell" "The counterspell fails to remove the bead, which sits there, alright fighter you're up" "Wait, what?"
...They would still get an ability check to counterspell it even if it's higher level.
Sorry to Counterspell your bubble. :P
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.