After some doubts in our last adventure, I attempted to find a clear answer to the question in the title. Unfortunately, there are different answers available on the Internet, including here on D&D Beyond.
For example:
You don't recalculate anything according to this answer: "You simply read the numbers for the bonuses off of the beast stat block and PC sheet for skills you and the beast are proficient in, and then take the higher number."
A recent question and some answers here in D&D Beyond, with different opinions.
Even for those links, there are discrepancies.
What's the right answer? It's weird to recalculate things when the rule states (emphasis mine):
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
So, as far as I understand, in terms of proficiencies, you replace the bonus, not recalculate it.
Please, if there is already an answer for this in the forum, just let me know.
Wild Shape is not well understood, and even the designers have contradicted what appears in the books. Treantmonk devoted a video to this: You don't know how Wild Shape works in D&D 5e (and neither do I) . I am attracted to the second answer given in your first link called "For skills and saves: do the math" as it seems the most logical and in line with the intention of the designers. Since, frankly, the rules are not clear, and often don't make sense, the most important thing will to be to work out an understanding with your DM.
Even that Stack Exchange threat does not cover a couple of issues, including Expertise and Weapons Proficiencies. What if the beast has Expertise, but the Druid doesn't? My answer, in the forum chain you reference, is that you can either use the beast's proficiency bonus and its Expertise, or the Druid's proficiency bonus and its lack of Expertise, but you can't mix the two together. I base that on a strict reading of the PHB, even though I acknowledge that the PHB rules are unclear and don't always make sense.
The other is weapon proficiencies. The PHB is silent on weapon proficiencies, but your Stack Exchange link includes quotes from the designers that suggest that their intent was that you would always use the stats in the beast's stats block for attacks for which the Druid lacks proficiency. That same answer cautions against recalculating attacks for unarmed strikes, although it acknowledges that it would be tempting for Druid Monk multiclasses (and presumably Unarmed Fighting style Fighter Druids) to do so. I theory crafted a Moon Druid 2/Shadow Monk 6 that would really like to know. To me, it remains an open question, and one you would need to work out with your DM.
The relevant sentence is "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
It can be (and has been) interpreted in many ways, as everyone here has said. I think the most elegant solution should have been to look at your character sheet and the stat block, and choose the higher bonus to the roll. What I'd probably do at the game though, is to use your PB, and your current stats, and calculate a new bonus for all proficiencies. If the new calculation is still lower than the beast's, then use the one in the statblock. As was said before, you never get to add those weird bonuses like expertise or a random + that some monsters get to your new calculation.
I am still weary of the new version of wildshape. It looks like the last playtest version has some better language but still wasn't clear enough.
As an aside, the giant crocodile has a hidden +3 to stealth, but hidden bonuses to hit are more common than the hidden bonuses to skills for beasts. Sometime the stat used for a natural weapon attack -- str or dex -- isn't clear either.
Simplest to just use the higher of your normal shape vs the shape you take.
Really not worth the re-calculations every time you do it.
As someone using Shapechange, I can tell you this can be a huge time saving.
Use the rule of Cool, do not slow down the game and turn it into a math olympiad.
I intentionally held back my answer to see your responses first, but as a DM, that's my approach. It aligns with my interpretation of the rules and, at the same time, keeps things simple. I appreciate the simplicity of D&D 5e in many rules, so I like to think that here, too, simplicity is sought.
Even that Stack Exchange threat does not cover a couple of issues, including Expertise and Weapons Proficiencies. What if the beast has Expertise, but the Druid doesn't? My answer, in the forum chain you reference, is that you can either use the beast's proficiency bonus and its Expertise, or the Druid's proficiency bonus and its lack of Expertise, but you can't mix the two together.
I was reading about that term - Expertise - in that post, but is it really a characteristic in the Monster Manual, or just a supposition to get the final numbers we usually see in the stat blocks?
Edit: oh, sorry, the expertise term appears in MM p. 8 (Skills).
The relevant sentence is "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
It can be (and has been) interpreted in many ways, as everyone here has said. I think the most elegant solution should have been to look at your character sheet and the stat block, and choose the higher bonus to the roll. What I'd probably do at the game though, is to use your PB, and your current stats, and calculate a new bonus for all proficiencies. If the new calculation is still lower than the beast's, then use the one in the statblock. As was said before, you never get to add those weird bonuses like expertise or a random + that some monsters get to your new calculation.
I am still weary of the new version of wildshape. It looks like the last playtest version has some better language but still wasn't clear enough.
As an aside, the giant crocodile has a hidden +3 to stealth, but hidden bonuses to hit are more common than the hidden bonuses to skills for beasts. Sometime the stat used for a natural weapon attack -- str or dex -- isn't clear either.
That's the problem for me. It's sometimes difficult to determine the modifiers and/or proficiency bonuses, so I prefer the elegant solution.
Hopefully, as you said, the new 2024 PHB will help us solve these kinds of questions.
I don't mean that you back calculate anything (thus having to figure out any PB from any creature or any other bonus). I mean you use your PB based on your level (and on your character sheet) and the STR, DEX, and CON from the beast and the INT, WIS and CHA from your sheet, and just add your sheet PB to whatever relevant ability bonus for rolls where you are proficient. Then check that vs the total bonus already printed in the block
For example, if my 15th level druid turned into that giant crocodile, then I would add my +5 PB on my character sheet to the -1 Dex of the beast to get a total of +4, and then I would compare it to the +5 on the creature's sheet and use the +5. There is no worrrying about why the croc has a modifier that doesn’t make sense. My method is to compare ability mod + PB to printed total.
I don't mean that you back calculate anything (thus having to figure out any PB from any creature or any other bonus). I mean you use your PB based on your level (and on your character sheet) and the STR, DEX, and CON from the beast and the INT, WIS and CHA from your sheet, and just add your sheet PB to whatever relevant ability bonus for rolls where you are proficient. Then check that vs the total bonus already printed in the block
...
I understand now, thanks! That idea is among the answers I linked in the first post.
In any case, I prefer not to transfer the proficiency bonus from the player character and use it to recalculate the current druid's values but applying the ability stats of the beast. I like the idea of comparing just the current calculated bonus for the skills where the druid and the beast are proficient and taking the higher value.
I won't argue for one particular viewpoint strongly over another on this. it is a widely debated topic where I may even have pretty forcefully championed one view. But in the end, it is a poorly defined feature.
In the long run, I think the things I would focus on are: ease of use at the table and generous toward players.
After some doubts in our last adventure, I attempted to find a clear answer to the question in the title. Unfortunately, there are different answers available on the Internet, including here on D&D Beyond.
For example:
Even for those links, there are discrepancies.
What's the right answer? It's weird to recalculate things when the rule states (emphasis mine):
So, as far as I understand, in terms of proficiencies, you replace the bonus, not recalculate it.
Please, if there is already an answer for this in the forum, just let me know.
Edit: I've just found this post (Wild Shape: Proficiency), but now I need to process it.
Simplest to just use the higher of your normal shape vs the shape you take.
Really not worth the re-calculations every time you do it.
As someone using Shapechange, I can tell you this can be a huge time saving.
Use the rule of Cool, do not slow down the game and turn it into a math olympiad.
Wild Shape is not well understood, and even the designers have contradicted what appears in the books. Treantmonk devoted a video to this: You don't know how Wild Shape works in D&D 5e (and neither do I) . I am attracted to the second answer given in your first link called "For skills and saves: do the math" as it seems the most logical and in line with the intention of the designers. Since, frankly, the rules are not clear, and often don't make sense, the most important thing will to be to work out an understanding with your DM.
Even that Stack Exchange threat does not cover a couple of issues, including Expertise and Weapons Proficiencies. What if the beast has Expertise, but the Druid doesn't? My answer, in the forum chain you reference, is that you can either use the beast's proficiency bonus and its Expertise, or the Druid's proficiency bonus and its lack of Expertise, but you can't mix the two together. I base that on a strict reading of the PHB, even though I acknowledge that the PHB rules are unclear and don't always make sense.
The other is weapon proficiencies. The PHB is silent on weapon proficiencies, but your Stack Exchange link includes quotes from the designers that suggest that their intent was that you would always use the stats in the beast's stats block for attacks for which the Druid lacks proficiency. That same answer cautions against recalculating attacks for unarmed strikes, although it acknowledges that it would be tempting for Druid Monk multiclasses (and presumably Unarmed Fighting style Fighter Druids) to do so. I theory crafted a Moon Druid 2/Shadow Monk 6 that would really like to know. To me, it remains an open question, and one you would need to work out with your DM.
The relevant sentence is "If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours."
It can be (and has been) interpreted in many ways, as everyone here has said. I think the most elegant solution should have been to look at your character sheet and the stat block, and choose the higher bonus to the roll. What I'd probably do at the game though, is to use your PB, and your current stats, and calculate a new bonus for all proficiencies. If the new calculation is still lower than the beast's, then use the one in the statblock. As was said before, you never get to add those weird bonuses like expertise or a random + that some monsters get to your new calculation.
I am still weary of the new version of wildshape. It looks like the last playtest version has some better language but still wasn't clear enough.
As an aside, the giant crocodile has a hidden +3 to stealth, but hidden bonuses to hit are more common than the hidden bonuses to skills for beasts. Sometime the stat used for a natural weapon attack -- str or dex -- isn't clear either.
Thanks for your answers, guys!
I intentionally held back my answer to see your responses first, but as a DM, that's my approach. It aligns with my interpretation of the rules and, at the same time, keeps things simple. I appreciate the simplicity of D&D 5e in many rules, so I like to think that here, too, simplicity is sought.
Yeah, I agree with that, due to the different opinions around the network 😅
I was reading about that term - Expertise - in that post, but is it really a characteristic in the Monster Manual, or just a supposition to get the final numbers we usually see in the stat blocks?
Edit: oh, sorry, the expertise term appears in MM p. 8 (Skills).
That's the problem for me. It's sometimes difficult to determine the modifiers and/or proficiency bonuses, so I prefer the elegant solution.
Hopefully, as you said, the new 2024 PHB will help us solve these kinds of questions.
Thanks again!
I don't mean that you back calculate anything (thus having to figure out any PB from any creature or any other bonus). I mean you use your PB based on your level (and on your character sheet) and the STR, DEX, and CON from the beast and the INT, WIS and CHA from your sheet, and just add your sheet PB to whatever relevant ability bonus for rolls where you are proficient. Then check that vs the total bonus already printed in the block
For example, if my 15th level druid turned into that giant crocodile, then I would add my +5 PB on my character sheet to the -1 Dex of the beast to get a total of +4, and then I would compare it to the +5 on the creature's sheet and use the +5. There is no worrrying about why the croc has a modifier that doesn’t make sense. My method is to compare ability mod + PB to printed total.
I understand now, thanks! That idea is among the answers I linked in the first post.
In any case, I prefer not to transfer the proficiency bonus from the player character and use it to recalculate the current druid's values but applying the ability stats of the beast. I like the idea of comparing just the current calculated bonus for the skills where the druid and the beast are proficient and taking the higher value.
Basically, I'm following this suggestion.
I won't argue for one particular viewpoint strongly over another on this. it is a widely debated topic where I may even have pretty forcefully championed one view. But in the end, it is a poorly defined feature.
In the long run, I think the things I would focus on are: ease of use at the table and generous toward players.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I don't want to argue with any of you, folks!
To be honest, all the options are feasible to me and all the options could fit with the current rules.
Totally agree!