Trying to understand the reasoning behind why, for example, a Monk 3 / Druid 2 is considered a 5th level character
I believe it puts the character at a clear disadvantage if adventuring with a party of single class characters as they would be fighting encounters with more powerful creatures. For instance, cruising with a party of 6th levels 3/3. You are, in effect, fighting 6th level monsters with a 3rd level capable character, aren't you? It seems to get worse the higher you go, especially if you intend to build that multi-class symmetrically. At 10th level party you are sitting 5/5 and having to deal with monsters at 10th level CR equivalents.
Other than gaining more hit dice and additional dice damage for spells (your 2nd level Druid gets a benefit of 5th level damage, it appears), the disadvantage of the encounter mismatch, especially at higher levels (say 10th level encounter while you are sitting 5/5), appears severe to me.
So, clearly, I am missing something that would clear it up for me.
Your HP, spell slots, and proficiency bonus all increase with your character level when you’ve multi-classed in addition to the damage that your cantrips do. You’re partly correct, ability score increases are based on your class levels, not your character level, and your leveled spells go up slower when you multi-class but most major items are based on your overall character level. It’s pretty balanced overall.
Your HP, spell slots, and proficiency bonus all increase with your character level when you’ve multi-classed in addition to the damage that your cantrips do. You’re partly correct, ability score increases are based on your class levels, not your character level, and your leveled spells go up slower when you multi-class but most major items are based on your overall character level. It’s pretty balanced overall.
I dislike multi-classing, but it’s balanced.
It appears to me the SPELL SLOTS are tied to the Druid Level as my character sheet shows 3 slots, which is a Druid Level 2 allotment, rather than the 9 (plus 3 cantrips) I would expect to get at 5th. That would be outstanding where it the case those slots increased, but I certainly would not expect them to. After all, I am a 2nd level Druid in this example. So, that makes sense to me that I would only get the 3 spell slots and 2 cantrips (per the table).
Does this, then, indicate a bug in the character sheet, and it should be showing slots per 5th level? Or, is it reflected correctly per the ruleset as 2nd level Druid slots?
From my initial post: Monk 3 / Druid 2 ... and, yes, I have read that section and understand it to say what I have stated as well. 2nd level spell slots as the Druid is 2nd level. It does not provide for 5th level spell sots, although the character is deemed to be 5th level.
You’re correct, your Druid’s spell slots and spell levels are the same as a second level Druid. Where you’ll see your spell casting abilities increase is when your 2 classes are both spellcasters, and Monks who use Ki points to cast spells aren’t counted as spellcasters for that.
If you go with a Druid/Paladin, which are both spellcasting classes, your spell slots will increase as either class increases in levels. You’ve discovered part of why I prefer to stay with a single class, I enjoy playing spellcasters and to me the advantages of multi-classing don’t outweigh getting higher level spells later. I like the Magic Initiate feat when I want to branch out a little bit much more than I like multi-classing. A lot of people disagree with me though.
On the bright side, your cantrips scale with your character level not your druid level.
Does not appear to be the case. The Druid 2 is sitting with 2 cantrips. 5th level shows that to be 3.
Your cantrips' *power levels* scale with character level, not the number of cantrips you get. The number of cantrips is class by class, so a multiclass with only one caster class will get less over time than a full caster would. Though, generally a multiclass of two casters will get earlier access to far more cantrips than a single caster would.
On the bright side, your cantrips scale with your character level not your druid level.
Does not appear to be the case. The Druid 2 is sitting with 2 cantrips. 5th level shows that to be 3.
Your cantrips' *power levels* scale with character level, not the number of cantrips you get. The number of cantrips is class by class, so a multiclass with only one caster class will get less over time than a full caster would. Though, generally a multiclass of two casters will get earlier access to far more cantrips than a single caster would.
Ah, yes. That is what I was trying to reference earlier as well. Spell power levels (including cantrips) gain the benefit of the character level. So, there is that.
Mouserdk, the list of what a 2/3 character loses over a pure level 5 character is pretty darn short, and most of it has to do with specialization, not combat effectiveness. All fifth level characters, regardless of whether they're multiclassed or not, will have:
Same "proficiency bonus" (which affects skill checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and the spell DCs of your spells and abilities)
Same number of hit dice (although you may have two different sorts of hit dice reflecting which classes you've taken)
Same cantrip damage-die strength (a Wizard 1/Fighter 16 throws a 4d10 Fire Bolt, the same as a Wizard 17 does)
These things are the core of what makes a character "capable" at any given tier of play, and multiclassing doesn't effect it in any way.
What a 2/3 character loses over a pure level 5 character is:
You don't yet have access to a stat increase/feat, which the pure character unlocked at level 4. This isn't to say that you'll necessarily end up with fewer of those stat increases/feats by 20, assuming you allocate class levels in multiples of 4, but it does delay what overall level you unlock them. A single feat or +1 stat modifier bonus are rarely strong enough to make or break a character's combat effectiveness, although it may feel like you have less of an edge when compared to a more focused character doing the same thing that optimized their level progression more efficiently.
You only have 2nd level druid features instead of 5th level druid features/3rd level monk features instead of 5th level monk features. If you place a high importance on the druid/monk features you didn't get and a low importance on the druid/monk features that you did get by virtue of your multiclass, I guess that could feel like missing out... but then I wonder why you built a multiclass character at all, if you weren't valuing what you stood to pick up? Again, this doesn't feel like a "power level" issue to me, more of a "specialization" issue... you're doing less of one thing, and more of something else.
Kind of a subset of the above point... but multiclassing a caster class with a non-caster class does slow down or halt your progress towards higher level slots and spells. This is no way makes the spells you already have access to any less effective, it just closes off other spells a pure caster would be accessing. I don't see this as a problem, as what you've lost in spells, you've gained in new class features from your monk levels?
I guess I'll add... it's worth conceding that you probably picked two of the classes that most want to be played pure in the game for the purpose of your example. A multiclass monk will have fewer ki points and a smaller unarmed strike damage die than a pure monk (although I think there's plenty of room to multiclass after 14 or 17). A multiclass druid (especially a moon druid) will lag behind on unlocking more powerful transformations compared to a pure druid, and (again, at least for moon druids) it's hard to find a class splash that gives you more than you stand to lose by missing the levels 18 and 20 capstones.
Slowing down monk and druid levels both directly influence the damage you're doing in combat, so it's an extreme case. There's still lots of builds that can make good use of multiclassing druid or monk, but druid/monk specifically is a pretty tough combo to build around, and in my experience involves progressing one and then the other to certain benchmarks instead of building them symmetrically. But really it's the exception that proves the rule, and multiclass characters are generally on par with pure classed characters.
I guess I'll add... it's worth conceding that you probably picked two of the classes that most want to be played pure in the game for the purpose of your example. A multiclass monk will have fewer ki points and a smaller unarmed strike damage die than a pure monk (although I think there's plenty of room to multiclass after 14 or 17). A multiclass druid (especially a moon druid) will lag behind on unlocking more powerful transformations compared to a pure druid, and (again, at least for moon druids) it's hard to find a class splash that gives you more than you stand to lose by missing the levels 18 and 20 capstones.
Slowing down monk and druid levels both directly influence the damage you're doing in combat, so it's an extreme case. There's still lots of builds that can make good use of multiclassing druid or monk, but druid/monk specifically is a pretty tough combo to build around, and in my experience involves progressing one and then the other to certain benchmarks instead of building them symmetrically. But really it's the exception that proves the rule, and multiclass characters are generally on par with pure classed characters.
Fair points. Call it the luck of the newbie. I picked them specifically without understanding up front what you just detailed. Simply wanted to give them a go.
I have come to the conclusion that I will not be advancing them symmetrically, as a result. Being that extreme case will simply make it more of a challenge to play as we frolic in Out of The Abyss, it appears. Should prove interesting.
I am itching to try a 40' move into a tight group of 4 Gnolls, followed by Thunderwave action, followed by Combat Wild Shape into Brown Bear. Zip in, BOOM!, Surprise! Big Thunder.....
There's definitely some builds and concepts that are awesome at higher tiers of play... but a complete slog where nothing really "clicks" together for the first 10 levels. Unfortunately I think you might have found one... although I agree that it's a really cool concept! The monk's unarmored defense bonus in particular makes druid's beast forms much better in combat.
If I were in your position, I would probably take your next two levels in Druid instead of Monk if you aren't a Moon druid, or the next two levels in Monk if you are.
As a druid....
Next level will get you....
3 more spell slots
the level after will get you...
1 more spell slot
access to Black Bear if you aren't a moon druid, or pretty much nothing if you are
a feat.
As a monk...
the next level in Monk would get you...
a feat
a non-combat ability that doesn't come up often, but is great when it does!
the level after would get you...
an increased unarmed strike die (lets you do as much/very slightly more damage with unarmed strikes while bear-shaped as you would with the bear's multiattack)
an extra attack (lets you do as much/very slightly more damage with unarmed strikes while bear-shaped as you would with the bear's multiattack)
If ninja bears are your concept, compared against a CR 1 Brown Bear (or CR 2 Cave Bear, that pretty much just gets slightly better HP and Strength) which does around 20 damage per round by hitting with both attacks, you can probably slightly outdamage the form's base attacks by using a monk's flurry of 3 or 4 unarmed stikes as soon as you unlock d6 punches at Monk 5. Stopping at Monk 5/Druid 15 sounds like a good baseline to test other class mix builds against. You've already locked yourself out of Druid 18 giving you CR 6 beast forms/beast form spellcasting, but Druid 10 gives you elemental forms that are arguably better than the higher-CR beast forms anyway, so Druid 10/Monk 10 (or Druid 12/Monk 8) is another good benchmark to compare your build against.
I usually don't like to multiclass more than 2-5 levels into a second class, because you do lose power at higher levels. But a lot of classes are front loaded with good features so a low level dip is often very useful.
I usually don't like to multiclass more than 2-5 levels into a second class, because you do lose power at higher levels. But a lot of classes are front loaded with good features so a low level dip is often very useful.
I agree. One of the reasons I chose Druid for this Monk. Did not anticipate much past 5th here. Still, just getting into DND 5E and learning the ins and outs of it after a ~30 year hiatus from AD&D where I last played Gray Mouser, the Fighter/Assassin. Thus, my handle. Loved that character. Lots of really wild adventures. He will be a NPC, along with several of his fellow "retired" adventurers when I start up my Forgotten Realms campaign soon.
Oh, I assumed you wanted to go primary Druid... but if it's the other way around, that works too!
As I've mentioned elsewhere, Shadow Monk is amazing, but doesn't have a lot to incentivize going past 14, or 17 at the very most.
Druid 6/Monk 14 gives you access to CR 3 beasts and your full slots for levels 1-3 spells. The difference between 1d8 punches and 1d10 punches is very small, and the versatility and extra HP you've picked up with your beast forms and spellcasting more than makes up for it in my mind. This is absolutely the build I would recommend, if bears are all you care about, and you mostly want to be doing monk things rather than casting spells. The most notable thing you're giving up by stopping at Druid 6 is the ability to take the form of a flying beast... but your Shadow Monk level 6 feature already makes you pretty mobile and versatile. A bear that can teleport from shadow to shadow is cooler than a stupid bird!
Druid 3/Monk 17 is just enough to pick up second level spells, but leaves you stuck as a Brown Bear instead of Cave Bear, with a lower strength bonus and less HP. The 4ish extra damage per round you can expect from the larger unarmed strike die is offset by the 4ish less damage per round you can expect from having a lower strength modifier in bear form, so it's a wash. The regular monk feature at 15 is purely for RP, while the shadow monk 17 feature feels pretty extra (especially if you've already taken a feat like Sentinel along the way).
Druid 4/Monk 16 gets one more feat than either of the above, but is kind of the worst of both worlds. You're stuck as a Brown Bear, but also still only use d8's for your unarmed strikes. You only have one more 2nd level spell than the Druid 3/Monk 17 above... meh. A monk that's going to wildshape during big fights can get away with fewer ASI's, so getting full feat progression takes a back seat to class features in my book.
In summary... Druid (Moon) 6/Monk (Shadow) 14 is the way to go. Definitely max out Wisdom, as your Wisdom is going to be your way of getting higher-than-normal AC's in your beast forms (AC 15 for bears with 20 wisdom, instead of 12), and for having effective DCs for monk and druid abilities. Maxing Wisdom should only take 2-3 of your ASI's depending on race. With the other 1-2, you could pump your Dexterity for those non-bear moments, or take worthy feats which include Observant (counts towards one of the 2-3 ASI's you need for max wisdom, makes you a better scout which is likely what your party role is), Sentinel (always good on melee characters), and Tavern Brawler (let's you bear hug targets easily, which will be very effective with 20 strength!).
Trying to understand the reasoning behind why, for example, a Monk 3 / Druid 2 is considered a 5th level character
I believe it puts the character at a clear disadvantage if adventuring with a party of single class characters as they would be fighting encounters with more powerful creatures. For instance, cruising with a party of 6th levels 3/3. You are, in effect, fighting 6th level monsters with a 3rd level capable character, aren't you? It seems to get worse the higher you go, especially if you intend to build that multi-class symmetrically. At 10th level party you are sitting 5/5 and having to deal with monsters at 10th level CR equivalents.
Other than gaining more hit dice and additional dice damage for spells (your 2nd level Druid gets a benefit of 5th level damage, it appears), the disadvantage of the encounter mismatch, especially at higher levels (say 10th level encounter while you are sitting 5/5), appears severe to me.
So, clearly, I am missing something that would clear it up for me.
Gray Mouser
Your HP, spell slots, and proficiency bonus all increase with your character level when you’ve multi-classed in addition to the damage that your cantrips do. You’re partly correct, ability score increases are based on your class levels, not your character level, and your leveled spells go up slower when you multi-class but most major items are based on your overall character level. It’s pretty balanced overall.
I dislike multi-classing, but it’s balanced.
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It appears to me the SPELL SLOTS are tied to the Druid Level as my character sheet shows 3 slots, which is a Druid Level 2 allotment, rather than the 9 (plus 3 cantrips) I would expect to get at 5th. That would be outstanding where it the case those slots increased, but I certainly would not expect them to. After all, I am a 2nd level Druid in this example. So, that makes sense to me that I would only get the 3 spell slots and 2 cantrips (per the table).
Does this, then, indicate a bug in the character sheet, and it should be showing slots per 5th level? Or, is it reflected correctly per the ruleset as 2nd level Druid slots?
Gray Mouser
We may be able to help you more if you tell us what your multiclass is/what the level breakdown is.
I highly recommend reading the multiclass spellcasting rules.
From my initial post: Monk 3 / Druid 2 ... and, yes, I have read that section and understand it to say what I have stated as well. 2nd level spell slots as the Druid is 2nd level. It does not provide for 5th level spell sots, although the character is deemed to be 5th level.
Appreciate the confirmation!
Gray Mouser
On the bright side, your cantrips scale with your character level not your druid level.
You’re correct, your Druid’s spell slots and spell levels are the same as a second level Druid. Where you’ll see your spell casting abilities increase is when your 2 classes are both spellcasters, and Monks who use Ki points to cast spells aren’t counted as spellcasters for that.
If you go with a Druid/Paladin, which are both spellcasting classes, your spell slots will increase as either class increases in levels. You’ve discovered part of why I prefer to stay with a single class, I enjoy playing spellcasters and to me the advantages of multi-classing don’t outweigh getting higher level spells later. I like the Magic Initiate feat when I want to branch out a little bit much more than I like multi-classing. A lot of people disagree with me though.
Professional computer geek
Does not appear to be the case. The Druid 2 is sitting with 2 cantrips. 5th level shows that to be 3.
Gray Mouser
Your cantrips' *power levels* scale with character level, not the number of cantrips you get. The number of cantrips is class by class, so a multiclass with only one caster class will get less over time than a full caster would. Though, generally a multiclass of two casters will get earlier access to far more cantrips than a single caster would.
Ah, yes. That is what I was trying to reference earlier as well. Spell power levels (including cantrips) gain the benefit of the character level. So, there is that.
Gray Mouser
For instance, if you chose Thorn Whip as one of your two cantrips, its damage will be 2d6 because you are a 5th level character.
Mouserdk, the list of what a 2/3 character loses over a pure level 5 character is pretty darn short, and most of it has to do with specialization, not combat effectiveness. All fifth level characters, regardless of whether they're multiclassed or not, will have:
These things are the core of what makes a character "capable" at any given tier of play, and multiclassing doesn't effect it in any way.
What a 2/3 character loses over a pure level 5 character is:
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I guess I'll add... it's worth conceding that you probably picked two of the classes that most want to be played pure in the game for the purpose of your example. A multiclass monk will have fewer ki points and a smaller unarmed strike damage die than a pure monk (although I think there's plenty of room to multiclass after 14 or 17). A multiclass druid (especially a moon druid) will lag behind on unlocking more powerful transformations compared to a pure druid, and (again, at least for moon druids) it's hard to find a class splash that gives you more than you stand to lose by missing the levels 18 and 20 capstones.
Slowing down monk and druid levels both directly influence the damage you're doing in combat, so it's an extreme case. There's still lots of builds that can make good use of multiclassing druid or monk, but druid/monk specifically is a pretty tough combo to build around, and in my experience involves progressing one and then the other to certain benchmarks instead of building them symmetrically. But really it's the exception that proves the rule, and multiclass characters are generally on par with pure classed characters.
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Fair points. Call it the luck of the newbie. I picked them specifically without understanding up front what you just detailed. Simply wanted to give them a go.
I have come to the conclusion that I will not be advancing them symmetrically, as a result. Being that extreme case will simply make it more of a challenge to play as we frolic in Out of The Abyss, it appears. Should prove interesting.
I am itching to try a 40' move into a tight group of 4 Gnolls, followed by Thunderwave action, followed by Combat Wild Shape into Brown Bear. Zip in, BOOM!, Surprise! Big Thunder.....
Gray Mouser
There's definitely some builds and concepts that are awesome at higher tiers of play... but a complete slog where nothing really "clicks" together for the first 10 levels. Unfortunately I think you might have found one... although I agree that it's a really cool concept! The monk's unarmored defense bonus in particular makes druid's beast forms much better in combat.
If I were in your position, I would probably take your next two levels in Druid instead of Monk if you aren't a Moon druid, or the next two levels in Monk if you are.
As a druid....
As a monk...
If ninja bears are your concept, compared against a CR 1 Brown Bear (or CR 2 Cave Bear, that pretty much just gets slightly better HP and Strength) which does around 20 damage per round by hitting with both attacks, you can probably slightly outdamage the form's base attacks by using a monk's flurry of 3 or 4 unarmed stikes as soon as you unlock d6 punches at Monk 5. Stopping at Monk 5/Druid 15 sounds like a good baseline to test other class mix builds against. You've already locked yourself out of Druid 18 giving you CR 6 beast forms/beast form spellcasting, but Druid 10 gives you elemental forms that are arguably better than the higher-CR beast forms anyway, so Druid 10/Monk 10 (or Druid 12/Monk 8) is another good benchmark to compare your build against.
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Shadow Monk / Moon Druid .... will take all suggestions and advice for moves and advancement strategies.
Gray Mouser
Which I have done! 😊
Gray Mouser
I usually don't like to multiclass more than 2-5 levels into a second class, because you do lose power at higher levels. But a lot of classes are front loaded with good features so a low level dip is often very useful.
I agree. One of the reasons I chose Druid for this Monk. Did not anticipate much past 5th here. Still, just getting into DND 5E and learning the ins and outs of it after a ~30 year hiatus from AD&D where I last played Gray Mouser, the Fighter/Assassin. Thus, my handle. Loved that character. Lots of really wild adventures. He will be a NPC, along with several of his fellow "retired" adventurers when I start up my Forgotten Realms campaign soon.
Gray Mouser
Oh, I assumed you wanted to go primary Druid... but if it's the other way around, that works too!
As I've mentioned elsewhere, Shadow Monk is amazing, but doesn't have a lot to incentivize going past 14, or 17 at the very most.
Druid 6/Monk 14 gives you access to CR 3 beasts and your full slots for levels 1-3 spells. The difference between 1d8 punches and 1d10 punches is very small, and the versatility and extra HP you've picked up with your beast forms and spellcasting more than makes up for it in my mind. This is absolutely the build I would recommend, if bears are all you care about, and you mostly want to be doing monk things rather than casting spells. The most notable thing you're giving up by stopping at Druid 6 is the ability to take the form of a flying beast... but your Shadow Monk level 6 feature already makes you pretty mobile and versatile. A bear that can teleport from shadow to shadow is cooler than a stupid bird!
Druid 3/Monk 17 is just enough to pick up second level spells, but leaves you stuck as a Brown Bear instead of Cave Bear, with a lower strength bonus and less HP. The 4ish extra damage per round you can expect from the larger unarmed strike die is offset by the 4ish less damage per round you can expect from having a lower strength modifier in bear form, so it's a wash. The regular monk feature at 15 is purely for RP, while the shadow monk 17 feature feels pretty extra (especially if you've already taken a feat like Sentinel along the way).
Druid 4/Monk 16 gets one more feat than either of the above, but is kind of the worst of both worlds. You're stuck as a Brown Bear, but also still only use d8's for your unarmed strikes. You only have one more 2nd level spell than the Druid 3/Monk 17 above... meh. A monk that's going to wildshape during big fights can get away with fewer ASI's, so getting full feat progression takes a back seat to class features in my book.
In summary... Druid (Moon) 6/Monk (Shadow) 14 is the way to go. Definitely max out Wisdom, as your Wisdom is going to be your way of getting higher-than-normal AC's in your beast forms (AC 15 for bears with 20 wisdom, instead of 12), and for having effective DCs for monk and druid abilities. Maxing Wisdom should only take 2-3 of your ASI's depending on race. With the other 1-2, you could pump your Dexterity for those non-bear moments, or take worthy feats which include Observant (counts towards one of the 2-3 ASI's you need for max wisdom, makes you a better scout which is likely what your party role is), Sentinel (always good on melee characters), and Tavern Brawler (let's you bear hug targets easily, which will be very effective with 20 strength!).
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