I realize normally foes are not built using the same rules as PCs but is there a guide for doing this?
For example, the PCs are going to encounter another adventuring party and I would like to build it using the regular PC rules.
Or, asked another way, if the party was to meet an exact copy of itself (same number of players, classes and resources) what would the difficulty be? Moderate? Hard? Deadly? If the foes are an exact copy of the party, success will come down to better strategy and better rolls, so I would assume a difficulty of at least Hard if not Deadly, correct?
Just don’t. PCs are built for a full adventuring day, enemies (and NPCs) don’t need that complexity and power.
A party fighting their exact copies doesn’t really need a CR, because as you stated they have equal health and damage potential (if the party is at full health). However, this kind of fight will end up being “is the DM cleverer than the players”. Instead, it would be better to make enemy stat blocks with *similar* stats and key features that reflect the character, but not the whole sheet.
I have actually faced off my players against other characters made using the character-building rules. Its actually not too onerous using D&D Beyond to knock up some characters and you don't have to agonise over every ability choice or spell - just pick a few most likely to be used in combat.
I think I read somewhere that the CR for a character of level 'X' is around half 'X' for a non-spellcaster or two-thirds 'X' for a spellcaster. As always with CR this is pretty vague and would caution against overdoing it. In my case I created an encounter with a couple of 'full' characters several levels below that of the player characters with a couple of lower-level monsters slung in for interest. Bear in mind that it can already be tricky remembering all the abilities of an average monster (for me anyway!) so remembering everything a character can do will be an added effort.
Also, in answer to your last question of a party meeting their copies: A deadly encounter is one where a PC stands a reasonable chance of getting killed. For a party meeting their copies - presumably identical in number and level - then there will be just as high a chance of the copies killing the PCs as the PCs killing their copies. This would make the encounter more than deadly!! I wouldn't recommend it!
SwiftSign: Interesting advice but it didn't answer the question. I am not suggesting that I will use the exactvsame party, I was just using that as an example to determine what an exactly matched party would be considered in terms of difficulty...Hard or Deadly?
As noted, I wasn't planning on it. I was using exact copy for an indicstion of power. So characters of equal level (and quantity) would be deadly, which then gives a starting point to work with.
The half or 2/3 may work but it is also an odd artifact. I know it isn't completely true but characters of the same level should have approx the same power. Thus, in theory, the non-casters should have abilities to balance out their lack of spellcasting. Of a factor needs to be applied then that suggests that the classes are not properly balanced. Although utility outside combat also need to be factored in.
In any case, thanks for the answer, it is a good guide.
The half or 2/3 may work but it is also an odd artifact. I know it isn't completely true but characters of the same level should have approx the same power. Thus, in theory, the non-casters should have abilities to balance out their lack of spellcasting. Of a factor needs to be applied then that suggests that the classes are not properly balanced. Although utility outside combat also need to be factored in.
Just remember that CR and level are two completely different concepts, and what is 'balanced' for player characters doesn't necessarily apply to an enemy that will be faced in what is likely to be a single encounter.
In DnD, encounters are 'balanced' (kind of) with the assumption that players will face 2 or 3 encounters per short rest, may 4-6 encounters a day (or something like that).
So for players, spellcasters and non-spellcasters are balanced mainly due to resource usage. Spellcasters have abilities that can kill or shutdown enemies immediately and usually far more effectively than non-spellcasters. But for player characters this is balanced by the fact that spellcasters have limited resources (spell slots per spell level) whereas fighters can swing away with a sword all day.
Monsters have no such limitations since they are only used for a single encounter and can always go 'all out'. Which is why spellcasting monsters should be considered higher CR than non-spellcasters even though they would seem 'equal' if compared to a player character.
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I realize normally foes are not built using the same rules as PCs but is there a guide for doing this?
For example, the PCs are going to encounter another adventuring party and I would like to build it using the regular PC rules.
Or, asked another way, if the party was to meet an exact copy of itself (same number of players, classes and resources) what would the difficulty be? Moderate? Hard? Deadly? If the foes are an exact copy of the party, success will come down to better strategy and better rolls, so I would assume a difficulty of at least Hard if not Deadly, correct?
Just don’t. PCs are built for a full adventuring day, enemies (and NPCs) don’t need that complexity and power.
A party fighting their exact copies doesn’t really need a CR, because as you stated they have equal health and damage potential (if the party is at full health). However, this kind of fight will end up being “is the DM cleverer than the players”. Instead, it would be better to make enemy stat blocks with *similar* stats and key features that reflect the character, but not the whole sheet.
I have actually faced off my players against other characters made using the character-building rules. Its actually not too onerous using D&D Beyond to knock up some characters and you don't have to agonise over every ability choice or spell - just pick a few most likely to be used in combat.
I think I read somewhere that the CR for a character of level 'X' is around half 'X' for a non-spellcaster or two-thirds 'X' for a spellcaster. As always with CR this is pretty vague and would caution against overdoing it. In my case I created an encounter with a couple of 'full' characters several levels below that of the player characters with a couple of lower-level monsters slung in for interest. Bear in mind that it can already be tricky remembering all the abilities of an average monster (for me anyway!) so remembering everything a character can do will be an added effort.
Also, in answer to your last question of a party meeting their copies: A deadly encounter is one where a PC stands a reasonable chance of getting killed. For a party meeting their copies - presumably identical in number and level - then there will be just as high a chance of the copies killing the PCs as the PCs killing their copies. This would make the encounter more than deadly!! I wouldn't recommend it!
SwiftSign: Interesting advice but it didn't answer the question. I am not suggesting that I will use the exactvsame party, I was just using that as an example to determine what an exactly matched party would be considered in terms of difficulty...Hard or Deadly?
As noted, I wasn't planning on it. I was using exact copy for an indicstion of power. So characters of equal level (and quantity) would be deadly, which then gives a starting point to work with.
The half or 2/3 may work but it is also an odd artifact. I know it isn't completely true but characters of the same level should have approx the same power. Thus, in theory, the non-casters should have abilities to balance out their lack of spellcasting. Of a factor needs to be applied then that suggests that the classes are not properly balanced. Although utility outside combat also need to be factored in.
In any case, thanks for the answer, it is a good guide.
Just remember that CR and level are two completely different concepts, and what is 'balanced' for player characters doesn't necessarily apply to an enemy that will be faced in what is likely to be a single encounter.
In DnD, encounters are 'balanced' (kind of) with the assumption that players will face 2 or 3 encounters per short rest, may 4-6 encounters a day (or something like that).
So for players, spellcasters and non-spellcasters are balanced mainly due to resource usage. Spellcasters have abilities that can kill or shutdown enemies immediately and usually far more effectively than non-spellcasters. But for player characters this is balanced by the fact that spellcasters have limited resources (spell slots per spell level) whereas fighters can swing away with a sword all day.
Monsters have no such limitations since they are only used for a single encounter and can always go 'all out'. Which is why spellcasting monsters should be considered higher CR than non-spellcasters even though they would seem 'equal' if compared to a player character.