Mind Whip gets a lot of positive reviews online, largely for its Int save and not using concentration. However, it seems to me that the utility of this spell is highly contingent on the target not having solid ranged attacks as well as the initiative order. The table below summarizes possible outcomes when a sorcerer and barbarian are fighting a melee combatant, and the monster fails its save against Mind Whip. My interpretation is that Mind Whip would only provide value in two of the six potential scenarios. Obviously, if more party members are attacking the monster in melee range, then the likelihood of at least one of them going before the monster, and thus the spell having some effect, increases. This assumes the monster has no effective ranged attacks (if it does, then the value of mind whip is further diminished) and ignores the spell's damage as well as any value in preventing reactions other than their use in opportunity attacks.
Am I missing something?
Table. Initiative order and effects of Mind Whip on failed save
Sorcerer
Barbarian
Monster
Result on failed save
1
2
3
Barbarian attacks monster and moves away. The monster's options are constrained to move or attack. With no ranged attack, the monster loses a round of attacking.
1
3
2
Monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.
2
1
3
Monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.
2
3
1
Monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.
3
1
2
The effects of Mind Whip will be felt during the next round. If barbarian attacks monster and moves away during second round, and monster has no ranged attacks, then monster loses a round of attacking.
3
2
1
The effects of Mind Whip will be felt during the next round. During the second round, the monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.
Restricting a monster's movement can have all kinds of impacts.
Many spells are more effective in certain situations.
Web does not have the same utility in an open field as it does in a dungeon corridor. And even in the best situations, it does not prevent a monster from attacking. This doesn't make it a bad spell.
Some spells work about the same all the time, some have a sliding scale of effectiveness depending on the conditions, and some are totally useless outside of certain situations. Mind whip falls into the second category. It can be extremely useful in the right circumstances and fairly underwhelming in other cases. Part of the fun of being a spellcaster is using the right tool for the given situation. Personally I consider MW to be a really good pick, and have gotten a lot of mileage out of the way it restricts enemy actions.
I'm on mobile so I can barely read your chart... But:
The spell's effectiveness on melee targets is reduced only if the target's turn is before an ally on melee range. That is 3 out of 6 scenarios, not 4.
Any allies that go first can hit and run without disengaging or taking AOs. Enemies that are mostly ranged get tripped up pretty bad since they can't stay out of melee and attack. Enemies with bonus actions (probably spellcasters) lose half their actions.
It is a more strategic spell. It isn't going to be good if you use it when it doesn't benefit you.
Like you point out it is scenario specific in how well it will perform. But the situations where it does perform well are not that uncommon and you can pick and choose when to use it.
I've been through 2 campaigns now with a player having this spell and I'd estimate it acts as a useful spell in about 1 out of every 2 or 3 combats. Most leveled spells don't get used every combat in my experience
I'm on mobile so I can barely read your chart... But:
Don't worry. It doesn't look any better on desktop - the column with all the text is the thinnest.
Tables on the forums are broken as hell; even nicely styled tables from sub-classes and such look like crap when copied into a forum post.
As for tasha's mind whip it's a spell I really like; even without the rider effect it does decent reliable damage due to being INT save based. While the rider effect is a bit initiative order dependent, it's worth keeping in mind that you can always Ready an action in order to delay it until it will have the maximum effect, so you can always just delay casting until just before the Barbarian wants to move away (so the enemy may not have its reaction).
The spell removes the ability to take reactions. Cast it on foe engaging your spellcaster or archer, or even heavily wounded warrior, poof! Now they can safely move away. Need to rush past the big baddie to get to the deadly caster behind him, poof! No opportunity attacks from the big baddie.
The spell cancels out extreme movement coupled by nasty attacks, as well as bonus actions (rarer with monsters). That highly mobile monk who's harrying your spellcaster or healer. Locked down. The giant dragon doing nasty flyby attacks? Locked down. The creature running all over and doing massive destruction with radiating necrotic energy and a soul drain with its bonus... locked down!
Sure control spells aren't always useful... and sometime initiative isn't with you. When things work... boy can it be fun to frustrate the opposition!
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Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Table. Initiative order and effects of Mind Whip on failed save
Sorcerer
Barbarian
Monster
Result on failed save
1
2
3
Barbarian attacks monster and moves away. The monster's options are constrained to move or attack. With no ranged attack, the monster loses a round of attacking.
1
3
2
Monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.If it has already closed into melee you Ready your action to cast Mind whip after the monster's turn but before the Barbarian goes. Thus the monster loses its reaction and your barbarian can hit it and safely move away. If it survives it'll have a real subpar followup turn next round.
If it hasn't closed into melee casting mind whip will cause it's turn to be a wash as it tries to move only.
2
1
3
Monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact. You Ready your action to cast Mind whip after the monster's turn but before the Barbarian goes. Thus the monster loses its reaction and your barbarian can hit it and safely move away. If it survives it'll have a real subpar followup turn next round.
2
3
1
Monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.This one is just wrong on the face of it. You'll cast your Mind Whip, and it'll lose its reaction. The Barbarian goes next and can also attack it then move away safely. The creature will have a subpar followup turn on the next round.
3
1
2
The effects of Mind Whip will be felt during the next round. If barbarian attacks monster and moves away during second round, and monster has no ranged attacks, then monster loses a round of attacking.
3
2
1
The effects of Mind Whip will be felt during the next round. During the second round, the monster can attack or move. It will likely attack, and the spell will likely have no impact.
Mind Whip gets a lot of positive reviews online, largely for its Int save and not using concentration. However, it seems to me that the utility of this spell is highly contingent on the target not having solid ranged attacks as well as the initiative order. The table below summarizes possible outcomes when a sorcerer and barbarian are fighting a melee combatant, and the monster fails its save against Mind Whip. My interpretation is that Mind Whip would only provide value in two of the six potential scenarios. Obviously, if more party members are attacking the monster in melee range, then the likelihood of at least one of them going before the monster, and thus the spell having some effect, increases. This assumes the monster has no effective ranged attacks (if it does, then the value of mind whip is further diminished) and ignores the spell's damage as well as any value in preventing reactions other than their use in opportunity attacks.
Am I missing something?
Table. Initiative order and effects of Mind Whip on failed save
What you're missing is:
Web does not have the same utility in an open field as it does in a dungeon corridor. And even in the best situations, it does not prevent a monster from attacking. This doesn't make it a bad spell.
Some spells work about the same all the time, some have a sliding scale of effectiveness depending on the conditions, and some are totally useless outside of certain situations. Mind whip falls into the second category. It can be extremely useful in the right circumstances and fairly underwhelming in other cases. Part of the fun of being a spellcaster is using the right tool for the given situation. Personally I consider MW to be a really good pick, and have gotten a lot of mileage out of the way it restricts enemy actions.
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I'm on mobile so I can barely read your chart... But:
The spell's effectiveness on melee targets is reduced only if the target's turn is before an ally on melee range. That is 3 out of 6 scenarios, not 4.
Any allies that go first can hit and run without disengaging or taking AOs. Enemies that are mostly ranged get tripped up pretty bad since they can't stay out of melee and attack. Enemies with bonus actions (probably spellcasters) lose half their actions.
It is a more strategic spell. It isn't going to be good if you use it when it doesn't benefit you.
Like you point out it is scenario specific in how well it will perform. But the situations where it does perform well are not that uncommon and you can pick and choose when to use it.
I've been through 2 campaigns now with a player having this spell and I'd estimate it acts as a useful spell in about 1 out of every 2 or 3 combats. Most leveled spells don't get used every combat in my experience
Don't worry. It doesn't look any better on desktop - the column with all the text is the thinnest.
Tables on the forums are broken as hell; even nicely styled tables from sub-classes and such look like crap when copied into a forum post.
As for tasha's mind whip it's a spell I really like; even without the rider effect it does decent reliable damage due to being INT save based. While the rider effect is a bit initiative order dependent, it's worth keeping in mind that you can always Ready an action in order to delay it until it will have the maximum effect, so you can always just delay casting until just before the Barbarian wants to move away (so the enemy may not have its reaction).
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The spell does damage. HP dmg is always nice.
The spell removes the ability to take reactions. Cast it on foe engaging your spellcaster or archer, or even heavily wounded warrior, poof! Now they can safely move away. Need to rush past the big baddie to get to the deadly caster behind him, poof! No opportunity attacks from the big baddie.
The spell cancels out extreme movement coupled by nasty attacks, as well as bonus actions (rarer with monsters). That highly mobile monk who's harrying your spellcaster or healer. Locked down. The giant dragon doing nasty flyby attacks? Locked down. The creature running all over and doing massive destruction with radiating necrotic energy and a soul drain with its bonus... locked down!
Sure control spells aren't always useful... and sometime initiative isn't with you. When things work... boy can it be fun to frustrate the opposition!
Remember there are Rules as Written (RAW), Rules as Intended (RAI), and Rules as Fun (RAF). There's some great RAW, RAI, and RAF here... please check in with your DM to determine how they want to adjudicate the RAW/RAI/RAF for your game.
Fixed.
I got quotes!