My DM says it always works this way that if an enemy has a pole arm they can "reach around anything" to get to any creature with it. Does it work like that?
My DM says it always works this way that if an enemy has a pole arm they can "reach around anything" to get to any creature with it. Does it work like that?
I’d say yes. But the target would definitely have some cover if they were on the opposite side.
RAW yes, for the most part. You wouldn't be able to target a creature with total cover but you can still target a creature with half or three-quarters cover. The PHB gives examples of half, three-quarters, and total cover but it's not meant to be all inclusive.
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover
Yes a creature behind another creature would only ever have half-cover (Jeremy Crawford tweeted as much). But a DM could rule a creature had three-quarters cover if it were behind a group of other creatures.
If I wanted to be super-specific about it, I'd probably rule like this: If there is a hostile or neutral creature between the attacker and the target, the target gets 3/4 cover. If there is an ally between the attacker and target and the ally isn't restrained or incapacitated, the target gets half-cover(on the theory that there's enough room in the ally's 5' square for them to try and scooch out of the way a little bit). In the case of the bugbear, I'd say if they're trying to hit something at that 15' reach, they can try to attack through someone at 10' but not 5', since poking a stick through someone's space is less awkward that your big beefy bugbear arm(the trait is named "Long-Limbed" after all, not "Make Polearm Longer"). All of this would only apply if the creatures were size Medium. A creature Large or bigger would be total cover, Small would only ever be half cover, and Tiny wouldn't be cover of any level. And if the attacker and/or target were a size other than Medium, *throws up hands* I dunno, I'd improvise.
If I wanted to be super-specific about it, I'd probably rule like this: If there is a hostile or neutral creature between the attacker and the target, the target gets 3/4 cover. If there is an ally between the attacker and target and the ally isn't restrained or incapacitated, the target gets half-cover(on the theory that there's enough room in the ally's 5' square for them to try and scooch out of the way a little bit). In the case of the bugbear, I'd say if they're trying to hit something at that 15' reach, they can try to attack through someone at 10' but not 5', since poking a stick through someone's space is less awkward that your big beefy bugbear arm(the trait is named "Long-Limbed" after all, not "Make Polearm Longer"). All of this would only apply if the creatures were size Medium. A creature Large or bigger would be total cover, Small would only ever be half cover, and Tiny wouldn't be cover of any level. And if the attacker and/or target were a size other than Medium, *throws up hands* I dunno, I'd improvise.
The rule for half cover specifically mentioned friendly and enemy creatures, so that would be a house rule, not RAW.
Keep in mind the 5 foot space a creature occupies doesn't mean that creature is 5 feet wide. A half-ling can crouch behind a tiefling and get half-cover but the enemy can still maneuver within their current 5 foot space to get an angle to poke the half-ling with a polearm. That maneuvering isn't movement (meaning you don't spend any movement), it's just the flavor for how the enemy can hit the half-ling. The tiefling and half-ling could make comical maneuvers within their 5 foot space to avoid the attack and that might be the narrative for the enemy failing to beat the Armor Class.
Good discussion. If i can share a bit of out of game perspective, a major factor in the development and use of "pole arm" type weapons was to do exactly what OP is asking about. They were used to get over shield walls, have advantage from height or neutralize that advantage from below, keep distance from shorter enemy weapons while threatening/inflicting blows with the longer weapon. Not meaning to trigger a "game vs real world" debate, i'm pointing out the logic and utility of allowing a pole arm to be used in the reasonable context in the post.
The visual of two medium or large creatures whacking away at each other with smaller ones in between is pretty amusing... (-:
The amount of creatures between you and a target doesn't really matter... it's always going to be half-cover. As has been mentioned, a creature does not concurrently occupy the entirety of their space, and the presumption of moving around within spaces to get an angle of attack on the target isn't altered by the discrete number of creatures between you and your target. You're still going to find that opening (at +2 AC for the target).
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If I wanted to be super-specific about it, I'd probably rule like this: If there is a hostile or neutral creature between the attacker and the target, the target gets 3/4 cover. If there is an ally between the attacker and target and the ally isn't restrained or incapacitated, the target gets half-cover(on the theory that there's enough room in the ally's 5' square for them to try and scooch out of the way a little bit). In the case of the bugbear, I'd say if they're trying to hit something at that 15' reach, they can try to attack through someone at 10' but not 5', since poking a stick through someone's space is less awkward that your big beefy bugbear arm(the trait is named "Long-Limbed" after all, not "Make Polearm Longer"). All of this would only apply if the creatures were size Medium. A creature Large or bigger would be total cover, Small would only ever be half cover, and Tiny wouldn't be cover of any level. And if the attacker and/or target were a size other than Medium, *throws up hands* I dunno, I'd improvise.
The rule for half cover specifically mentioned friendly and enemy creatures, so that would be a house rule, not RAW.
Was not aware of that, so I'd revise accordingly. Makes it simpler.
The PHB explicitly states that cover doesn't stack - if you have multiple sources of cover, only one of them applies, and it must be one which grants the most cover. So any number of intervening creatures is half cover, and it never goes up to 3/4 cover.
The amount of creatures between you and a target doesn't really matter... it's always going to be half-cover. As has been mentioned, a creature does not concurrently occupy the entirety of their space, and the presumption of moving around within spaces to get an angle of attack on the target isn't altered by the discrete number of creatures between you and your target. You're still going to find that opening (at +2 AC for the target).
There is exactly zero basis for this rule, and honestly it is ridiculous to imagine. By your token, if there is an army between you and the general, 20 ranks deep, he still has only half cover (I'm obviously talking missile fire here, not polearm, but the cover rules don't make any difference, which is only slightly illogical and can be mostly ignored).
In my games, the general has total cover.
And please note that the game does NOT say that creatures give half cover. They just say "if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover" as an example, because that specific creature gives half cover. But a gelatinous cube that fully occupies its space gives total cover. Like most things in the game, the rules let the DM decide.
The PHB explicitly states that cover doesn't stack - if you have multiple sources of cover, only one of them applies, and it must be one which grants the most cover. So any number of intervening creatures is half cover, and it never goes up to 3/4 cover.
This is NOT what the game says. It says specifically "There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together." This means that half-cover and half-cover don't add up to full cover.
But it is, as always, the DM who decides, and if the DM decides that the 2 creatures between you and your target cover three-quarters of your target, than it has three-quarters cover. And as above, if he decides that just one creature provides full cover because it's a gelatinous cube or a tarrasque, then here you go, full cover.
Personally, with two creatures between you and your target, even if they don't occupy their space fully, they are usually not dodging in sync, I would apply 3/4 cover. But I would adjust this according to circumstances:
if it were friends and you just yelled "duck" before firing, I would probably be generous and give only half-cover.
If it were Uruk-hai with tower shields, two ranks of phalange, I would probably give total cover to the third rank.
And no, I will not create rules for all situations, 5e's intent are that it provides guidelines, not hard and fast rules that can be read only in a restrictive sense, see above. Most of the rules are written to preserve a DM's freedom to describe nice situations, while still respecting them.
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Creatures provide half cover.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Creatures do not provide three-quarters cover.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
The only things which provide total cover are things which completely conceal the target, making it impossible to target them directly.
If you, as a specific group's DM, in a specific session, with specific battle conditions, say that 20 ranks of creatures completely conceal the leader from a specific PC's vision (is everyone on the same elevation, and are they not all spaced 5ft apart per the guidelines on how much space a creature needs to fight unhindered..? Because then you aren't following the rules on creature size and space... 🙃), then okay... that's your judgement call to make for your game, but you aren't really following the rules for cover--you're saying they are essentially in a heavily obscured area, and using that as justification for applying total cover.
Does that constitute a general rule for how cover works with more than one creature? No, creatures provide only half-cover, and multiple things providing half-cover do not combine to create more cover.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As silly as it may sound, a tiny sprite behind a guangantuan very old dragon still has only half-cover.
A gargantuan dragon isn't a solid cube occupying the entire volume of its squares at all times, so yeah... it creates plenty of openings as it moves around just like anything else. There's plenty of open space underneath/around its body, legs, and wings 🙂
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As silly as it may sound, a tiny sprite behind a guangantuan very old dragon still has only half-cover.
A gargantuan dragon isn't a solid cube occupying the entire volume of its squares at all times, so yeah... it creates plenty of openings as it moves around just like anything else. There's plenty of open space underneath/around its body, legs, and wings 🙂
Yup i believe the only time a creature grant total cover to another is when swallowed for exemple.
As silly as it may sound, a tiny sprite behind a guangantuan very old dragon still has only half-cover.
A gargantuan dragon isn't a solid cube occupying the entire volume of its squares at all times, so yeah... it creates plenty of openings as it moves around just like anything else. There's plenty of open space underneath/around its body, legs, and wings 🙂
Yup i believe the only time a creature grant total cover to another is when swallowed for exemple.
Correct, as that would definitively constitute the creature being entirely concealed, and creatures capable of swallowing (like the Purple Worm & Gelatinous Cube) will explicitly say the target has full cover in that circumstance.
[edit] Side note: an exceptional creature like the Gelatinous Cubedoes occupy the entirety of its space at all times (because it explicitly says that it does), so a target that is completely concealed by the Gelatinous Cubedoes have total cover. However, if there is even a single, unobstructed line that can be traced from a point on the attacker's square to a point on their target's square, the target is still only in (at most) half cover.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
[edit] Side note: an exceptional creature like the Gelatinous Cubedoes occupy the entirety of its space at all times (because it explicitly says that it does), so a target that is completely concealed by the Gelatinous Cubedoes have total cover. However, if there is even a single, unobstructed line that can be traced from a point on the attacker's square to a point on their target's square, the target is still only in (at most) half cover.
Only creature inside a gelatinous cube has total cover. Creature the other side of it still only have half-cover as nothing in the creature statsblock overrides the general rules of Cover saing creature grant half-cover.
My DM says it always works this way that if an enemy has a pole arm they can "reach around anything" to get to any creature with it. Does it work like that?
I’d say yes. But the target would definitely have some cover if they were on the opposite side.
RAW yes, for the most part. You wouldn't be able to target a creature with total cover but you can still target a creature with half or three-quarters cover. The PHB gives examples of half, three-quarters, and total cover but it's not meant to be all inclusive.
What they said, yes, but cover (+2 AC).
Yes a creature behind another creature would only ever have half-cover (Jeremy Crawford tweeted as much). But a DM could rule a creature had three-quarters cover if it were behind a group of other creatures.
A polearm in a bugbear's hands could have multiple creatures in the way.
If I wanted to be super-specific about it, I'd probably rule like this: If there is a hostile or neutral creature between the attacker and the target, the target gets 3/4 cover. If there is an ally between the attacker and target and the ally isn't restrained or incapacitated, the target gets half-cover(on the theory that there's enough room in the ally's 5' square for them to try and scooch out of the way a little bit). In the case of the bugbear, I'd say if they're trying to hit something at that 15' reach, they can try to attack through someone at 10' but not 5', since poking a stick through someone's space is less awkward that your big beefy bugbear arm(the trait is named "Long-Limbed" after all, not "Make Polearm Longer"). All of this would only apply if the creatures were size Medium. A creature Large or bigger would be total cover, Small would only ever be half cover, and Tiny wouldn't be cover of any level. And if the attacker and/or target were a size other than Medium, *throws up hands* I dunno, I'd improvise.
The rule for half cover specifically mentioned friendly and enemy creatures, so that would be a house rule, not RAW.
Keep in mind the 5 foot space a creature occupies doesn't mean that creature is 5 feet wide. A half-ling can crouch behind a tiefling and get half-cover but the enemy can still maneuver within their current 5 foot space to get an angle to poke the half-ling with a polearm. That maneuvering isn't movement (meaning you don't spend any movement), it's just the flavor for how the enemy can hit the half-ling. The tiefling and half-ling could make comical maneuvers within their 5 foot space to avoid the attack and that might be the narrative for the enemy failing to beat the Armor Class.
Short of total cover, any occupied space can be attacked through. As others have said, 1/2 or 3/4 cover may apply depending what occupies it.
Good discussion. If i can share a bit of out of game perspective, a major factor in the development and use of "pole arm" type weapons was to do exactly what OP is asking about. They were used to get over shield walls, have advantage from height or neutralize that advantage from below, keep distance from shorter enemy weapons while threatening/inflicting blows with the longer weapon. Not meaning to trigger a "game vs real world" debate, i'm pointing out the logic and utility of allowing a pole arm to be used in the reasonable context in the post.
The visual of two medium or large creatures whacking away at each other with smaller ones in between is pretty amusing... (-:
The amount of creatures between you and a target doesn't really matter... it's always going to be half-cover. As has been mentioned, a creature does not concurrently occupy the entirety of their space, and the presumption of moving around within spaces to get an angle of attack on the target isn't altered by the discrete number of creatures between you and your target. You're still going to find that opening (at +2 AC for the target).
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Was not aware of that, so I'd revise accordingly. Makes it simpler.
The PHB explicitly states that cover doesn't stack - if you have multiple sources of cover, only one of them applies, and it must be one which grants the most cover. So any number of intervening creatures is half cover, and it never goes up to 3/4 cover.
Lyxen, you are 100% wrong, and that is easily verifiable by looking at what the PHB actually says:
Creatures provide half cover.
Creatures do not provide three-quarters cover.
The only things which provide total cover are things which completely conceal the target, making it impossible to target them directly.
If you, as a specific group's DM, in a specific session, with specific battle conditions, say that 20 ranks of creatures completely conceal the leader from a specific PC's vision (is everyone on the same elevation, and are they not all spaced 5ft apart per the guidelines on how much space a creature needs to fight unhindered..? Because then you aren't following the rules on creature size and space... 🙃), then okay... that's your judgement call to make for your game, but you aren't really following the rules for cover--you're saying they are essentially in a heavily obscured area, and using that as justification for applying total cover.
Does that constitute a general rule for how cover works with more than one creature? No, creatures provide only half-cover, and multiple things providing half-cover do not combine to create more cover.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
As silly as it may sound, a tiny sprite behind a guangantuan very old dragon still has only half-cover.
A gargantuan dragon isn't a solid cube occupying the entire volume of its squares at all times, so yeah... it creates plenty of openings as it moves around just like anything else. There's plenty of open space underneath/around its body, legs, and wings 🙂
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Yup i believe the only time a creature grant total cover to another is when swallowed for exemple.
Correct, as that would definitively constitute the creature being entirely concealed, and creatures capable of swallowing (like the Purple Worm & Gelatinous Cube) will explicitly say the target has full cover in that circumstance.
[edit] Side note: an exceptional creature like the Gelatinous Cube does occupy the entirety of its space at all times (because it explicitly says that it does), so a target that is completely concealed by the Gelatinous Cube does have total cover. However, if there is even a single, unobstructed line that can be traced from a point on the attacker's square to a point on their target's square, the target is still only in (at most) half cover.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Only creature inside a gelatinous cube has total cover. Creature the other side of it still only have half-cover as nothing in the creature statsblock overrides the general rules of Cover saing creature grant half-cover.