My PCs are approaching a fight that involves flying enemies atop a 300 foot spire. One of the monster's tactics is to shove PCs off the ledges or grapple PCs (with a contested athletics check) and drop them 300 feet. They just hit level 6, so a single failed check could spell outright death. While I want to play smart monsters, I don't think instant death tactics are fun for me or my players. I think it would be more fair to give PCs a second chance to save their lives, but don't know how to execute it. I have a few ideas:
1. Let PCs make a str/dex save to grab the ledge or pterafolk to prevent them from falling 2. Shove or drop a NPC follower in the first round as an example of the risk 3. Use their reaction to catch a fellow PC (with a successful athletics check or str save)
What would be a fair and reasonable way to play this out?
Don't forget that falling caps out at 20d6 damage, so they could potentially still live on impact with the ground (they might be making death saves, but it may not insta-kill them). All 3 of your options seem valid if you want them to have a better chance at survival. If you are running what I think you're running, it can be hard to avoid character death.
4. Avoid the ambush. 5. Roll Acrobatics to angle into the spire and land on a ledge, thereby reducing the distance of the fall to something closer to survivable (use margin of success to determine distance).
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tinkering with the mechanics to take away reasonable in-world consequences, is a tricky thing.
I'm not saying you should let your Players plummet to their deaths by any means.
But any changes you make to how you resolve this challenge is something the Players might - legitimately - expect that they can use in the future. You're possibly setting a mechanics precedent, unless you can narratively justify why falling off this rock spire is somehow different from falling off every other rock spire.
That may or may not be a problem for you, and you might think it's reasonable for them to use this mechanic from here on out - just be aware of it.
Also - what do you do if they miss all their rolls? Do you let the PC fall to their death?
It sounds like you want to capture the dramatic fear and tension of the possibility of them being shoved off the spire, but not actually drop and kill them ( seems reasonable to me ).
What I might do in this case is not to have the monsters try and shove the PCs off the spire, but have the creatures attempt to carry off one or more of the PCs. That creates a lot of dramatic tension: the PCs doesn't want the creature to drop them, the Party has to decide whether or not they're going to attack the creature ( and possibly make the creature drop their friend), you don't have to monkey with the mechanics to keep from killing your PC, and you don't unintentionally drop a PC to their death through a series of really bad luck rolls.
However, if the PC or Party was stupid, and targeted & killed the creature carrying off the PC - I'd still drop them. At that point, it's not on you; it's not the DM insta-killing a PC by creating a monster with a possible one-shot-kill attack, it's a consequence of bad Party choices.
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One polite solution might be to let the players use their reaction to try to grapple the shoving enemy. Another option might be to give the players a heads-up that this could happen--perhaps by having the flying enemy use that tactic on a meaningless NPC in front of the players.
That particular adventure is meant to kill PC's, if you don't end up with at least one dead PC you're nerfing the adventure to make it easier or your players are doing a great job of playing their characters to survive.
I'm playing that adventure as a player and we just faced that challenge. If your 6th level PC's work together intelligently as a team they'll all survive. But only if they work together as a team and play smart. If they don't cooperate that fight can turn deadly.
There isn't an instant death in 5e. Even if one of them falls off of the peak of the spire they still have to fail 3 death saves in order to die.
There is actually one instant death situation ( from falling; other instant death situations like falling in lava don't apply here ): pushing a Character to negative HP equal to the max positive HP. See here.
With a 6th level wizard, the average HP is 26, and falling 300' hits the maximum 20d6 falling damage, which averages out at 70 HP ( 20 x 3.5 ) damage - so, it's quite likely to kill the Wizard by pushing them to -26 HP.
An average 6th level Barbarian, at 47 HP, is harder. They'd have to be injured before they fall ( not unlikely in a combat situation ), or be really unlucky on the falling damage. Much less likely if they're raging. But it's not impossible. They're likely to be making Death Saving Throws - but if they're 300' away, can the Party reach them in time and/or use healing magic at that range?
I don't think you can completely dismiss the falling damage as non-lethal, especially after the Party climbs 200+ feet, and the 20d6 falling damage cap.
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It sounds like you want to capture the dramatic fear and tension of the possibility of them being shoved off the spire, but not actually drop and kill them
This captures what I want to do, perfectly. Thank you all for your suggestions thus far! I think I'll try to lean towards grappling vs shoving as Vedexent suggested, letting the risk and perils lie more on the players than DM-ex-machina (since dropping a grappled enemy is a free action, no second check needed). I think I'll let my players use their creativity on how to get out of the mess and call for appropriate checks depending on what they want to do.
That particular adventure is meant to kill PC's, if you don't end up with at least one dead PC you're nerfing the adventure to make it easier or your players are doing a great job of playing their characters to survive.
So, just for background, I didn't name the adventure specifically because it's sort of half-homebrewed. I like ToA (and really like Chult as a setting) but my players were more interested in an "Indiana Jones" type adventure. But that's beside the point. Maybe it's a "nerf" but I don't like save-or-die situations. They just don't seem fair in most cases.
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My PCs are approaching a fight that involves flying enemies atop a 300 foot spire. One of the monster's tactics is to shove PCs off the ledges or grapple PCs (with a contested athletics check) and drop them 300 feet. They just hit level 6, so a single failed check could spell outright death. While I want to play smart monsters, I don't think instant death tactics are fun for me or my players. I think it would be more fair to give PCs a second chance to save their lives, but don't know how to execute it. I have a few ideas:
1. Let PCs make a str/dex save to grab the ledge or pterafolk to prevent them from falling
2. Shove or drop a NPC follower in the first round as an example of the risk
3. Use their reaction to catch a fellow PC (with a successful athletics check or str save)
What would be a fair and reasonable way to play this out?
Don't forget that falling caps out at 20d6 damage, so they could potentially still live on impact with the ground (they might be making death saves, but it may not insta-kill them). All 3 of your options seem valid if you want them to have a better chance at survival. If you are running what I think you're running, it can be hard to avoid character death.
Do you have any character that knows Featherfall?
4. Avoid the ambush.
5. Roll Acrobatics to angle into the spire and land on a ledge, thereby reducing the distance of the fall to something closer to survivable (use margin of success to determine distance).
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Tinkering with the mechanics to take away reasonable in-world consequences, is a tricky thing.
I'm not saying you should let your Players plummet to their deaths by any means.
But any changes you make to how you resolve this challenge is something the Players might - legitimately - expect that they can use in the future. You're possibly setting a mechanics precedent, unless you can narratively justify why falling off this rock spire is somehow different from falling off every other rock spire.
That may or may not be a problem for you, and you might think it's reasonable for them to use this mechanic from here on out - just be aware of it.
Also - what do you do if they miss all their rolls? Do you let the PC fall to their death?
It sounds like you want to capture the dramatic fear and tension of the possibility of them being shoved off the spire, but not actually drop and kill them ( seems reasonable to me ).
What I might do in this case is not to have the monsters try and shove the PCs off the spire, but have the creatures attempt to carry off one or more of the PCs. That creates a lot of dramatic tension: the PCs doesn't want the creature to drop them, the Party has to decide whether or not they're going to attack the creature ( and possibly make the creature drop their friend), you don't have to monkey with the mechanics to keep from killing your PC, and you don't unintentionally drop a PC to their death through a series of really bad luck rolls.
However, if the PC or Party was stupid, and targeted & killed the creature carrying off the PC - I'd still drop them. At that point, it's not on you; it's not the DM insta-killing a PC by creating a monster with a possible one-shot-kill attack, it's a consequence of bad Party choices.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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One polite solution might be to let the players use their reaction to try to grapple the shoving enemy. Another option might be to give the players a heads-up that this could happen--perhaps by having the flying enemy use that tactic on a meaningless NPC in front of the players.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That particular adventure is meant to kill PC's, if you don't end up with at least one dead PC you're nerfing the adventure to make it easier or your players are doing a great job of playing their characters to survive.
I'm playing that adventure as a player and we just faced that challenge. If your 6th level PC's work together intelligently as a team they'll all survive. But only if they work together as a team and play smart. If they don't cooperate that fight can turn deadly.
That's a dangerous combat, but it's not as dangerous as you think it is if they play and work as a team.
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There is actually one instant death situation ( from falling; other instant death situations like falling in lava don't apply here ): pushing a Character to negative HP equal to the max positive HP. See here.
With a 6th level wizard, the average HP is 26, and falling 300' hits the maximum 20d6 falling damage, which averages out at 70 HP ( 20 x 3.5 ) damage - so, it's quite likely to kill the Wizard by pushing them to -26 HP.
An average 6th level Barbarian, at 47 HP, is harder. They'd have to be injured before they fall ( not unlikely in a combat situation ), or be really unlucky on the falling damage. Much less likely if they're raging. But it's not impossible. They're likely to be making Death Saving Throws - but if they're 300' away, can the Party reach them in time and/or use healing magic at that range?
I don't think you can completely dismiss the falling damage as non-lethal, especially after the Party climbs 200+ feet, and the 20d6 falling damage cap.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
This captures what I want to do, perfectly. Thank you all for your suggestions thus far! I think I'll try to lean towards grappling vs shoving as Vedexent suggested, letting the risk and perils lie more on the players than DM-ex-machina (since dropping a grappled enemy is a free action, no second check needed). I think I'll let my players use their creativity on how to get out of the mess and call for appropriate checks depending on what they want to do.
So, just for background, I didn't name the adventure specifically because it's sort of half-homebrewed. I like ToA (and really like Chult as a setting) but my players were more interested in an "Indiana Jones" type adventure. But that's beside the point. Maybe it's a "nerf" but I don't like save-or-die situations. They just don't seem fair in most cases.