As a DM I used the notice threats stance the following way.
If adventurers are going to be ambushed, the stealth of all the monsters is compared to the passive perception of the adventurers that are searching for threats and that are in a position for noticing them.
If any adventurer detects any monster, he alerts his companions and there is no surprise.
If not, the stealth of all the monsters is compared to the passive perception of all the adventurers and all the adventurers that didn't detect any monster are surprised.
But, i was reading the adventure "lost mines of phandelenver" and, in the goblin ambush, it teels you to go ahead to detect surprise, without checking if the characters that are searching for threats detect anything.
So, the question is easy. Was my interpretation of the rules right? Is the goblin ambush an special undetectable ambush? searching for threats character detect ambushes or only traps?
Adventurers are assumed to always be checking for threats, that's what passive perception is. For the goblin ambush, roll their stealth versus the characters' passive perception to determine if they detect the threat. If a character doesn't detect the threat themselves, other characters can inform them, but by then it will be the second round of combat anyway.
So, why would you use the detect threats stance when adventuring? Is it only a trap detecting tool? I wouldn't think so, as one example in phb is to detect enemies coming from the rear.
I see what you're talking about now, the noticing threats activity in adventuring movement section. Noticing threats is the default behavior for adventurers, if you aren't specifically doing something else that would keep you from noticing threats, you get your passive perception to allow you to notice things.
If you are instead focusing on other things, such as making a map or foraging for food, you will either not get your passive perception or be at disadvantage to notice (-5 to passive perception).
The noticing threats section would apply before combat starts. In particular, you may give ambushing enemies advantage on stealth while further away (against the passive perception of adventurers looking for threats), and no advantage when launching the attack to determine surprise (against the passive perception of all adventures).
There are a lot of grey areas in the rules where DMs have to make judgment calls.
To the disadvantage when not searching: I think somewhere in the DM's Guide it says that disadvantage on passive perception can be treated as a -5 to it and advantage as a +5 if I understand your question correctly.
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.
Basic Rules > Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores > Advantage and Disadvantage
You usually gain advantage or disadvantage through the use of special abilities, actions, or spells. Inspiration can also give a character advantage. The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement > Activity while traveling > Noticing threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank.
While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a –5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement > Activity while traveling > Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
So, for an ambush, the DM will roll a Dex(Stealth) check, usually an average of the ambushing party. As the adventurers approach the encounter he will do a passive check to see if any character has a passive Wis(Perception) score higher than the rolled Dex(Stealth) check. If they do, they notice the ambush and can alert the party which will immediately initiate combat (most likely) without surprise. Roll Initiative and proceed as usual. If no one has a higher passive Wis(Perception) score, then the ambush is successful and the attackers surprise the party. Any character doing something other than the default action of Noticing threats simply does not make the passive check. They most likely do not get disadvantage because they do not make the check. I suppose the DM could decide that the ambushers notice that they are being noticed and are able to attack before the call goes out to the rest of the party, therefore surprising the adventurers that didn't notice.
In the case of the "lost mines of phandelenver" adventure, it is saying to perform the passive check and find out if the party is surprised or not.
Looking for threats is an activity "while traveling" - those are rules to use while engaged in overland travel, as in you can move slightly slower but be more aware of your surroundings, or you can move faster than usual but be less careful/stealthy.
In lost mine, you're inside a goblin cave on your guard. The overland travel rules don't really come into play. So in that case, you just roll perception vs. stealth and decide which characters see the goblins and which have no idea they're about to get stabbed. :)
So in that case, you just roll perception vs. stealth and decide which characters see the goblins and which have no idea they're about to get stabbed. :)
RAW, no. You roll stealth for the enemy, and compare it to the parties Passive Perception. You only have active perception rolls when someone is actively taking the Search action.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement > Activity while traveling As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement >Speed > Travel Pace The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion.
"While traveling" is not simply overland travel rules. it refers to the difference between movement that is not measured in speed per round, set at a pace, and movement that is measured in speed per round, such as in combat. When you are moving at pace then it is assumed that characters are still doing something per round as they move, by default they are Noticing Threats. Think of Jason Borne walking into a diner. He notices threats, it's just automatic. So the DM rolls the ambushers stealth against the passive perception of the group when a member of the group is in a position where they could perceive a threat. The DM chooses if the whole party can perceive or if individual members are perceiving. If any member of the party perceives the ambush, they will alert the party and the ambush fails to surprise anyone. As I said, the DM could possibly rule that the ambush launches after the threat is perceived but before members of the party are alerted. The members not alerted would be surprised. This is not SOP, but it may be what the adventure "lost mines of phandelenver" is asking for.
Correct - I just thought "overland travel" was an easier generic term to comprehend than "non-combat / dungeon-crawling movement". I'm usually anti-jargon in explanations. :)
Also, "If any member of the party perceives the ambush, they will alert the party and the ambush fails to surprise anyone" is also not RAW. If the situation justifies it, then yes, the perceptive character could spot the enemies and alert the others before combat begins. However, if not, the "surprised" condition is determined on an individual, PC-by-PC and monster-by-monster basis. You could absolutely have perceptive unsurprised PCs and oblivious surprised PCs in the same party at the start of combat.
Also, "If any member of the party perceives the ambush, they will alert the party and the ambush fails to surprise anyone" is also not RAW.
Basic Rules > Chapter 9: Combat > The Order of Combat > Surprise The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
You are right. I apologize. I guess I've been playing it wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.
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Hi guys.
As a DM I used the notice threats stance the following way.
If adventurers are going to be ambushed, the stealth of all the monsters is compared to the passive perception of the adventurers that are searching for threats and that are in a position for noticing them.
If any adventurer detects any monster, he alerts his companions and there is no surprise.
If not, the stealth of all the monsters is compared to the passive perception of all the adventurers and all the adventurers that didn't detect any monster are surprised.
But, i was reading the adventure "lost mines of phandelenver" and, in the goblin ambush, it teels you to go ahead to detect surprise, without checking if the characters that are searching for threats detect anything.
So, the question is easy. Was my interpretation of the rules right? Is the goblin ambush an special undetectable ambush? searching for threats character detect ambushes or only traps?
Adventurers are assumed to always be checking for threats, that's what passive perception is. For the goblin ambush, roll their stealth versus the characters' passive perception to determine if they detect the threat. If a character doesn't detect the threat themselves, other characters can inform them, but by then it will be the second round of combat anyway.
So, why would you use the detect threats stance when adventuring? Is it only a trap detecting tool? I wouldn't think so, as one example in phb is to detect enemies coming from the rear.
I see what you're talking about now, the noticing threats activity in adventuring movement section. Noticing threats is the default behavior for adventurers, if you aren't specifically doing something else that would keep you from noticing threats, you get your passive perception to allow you to notice things.
If you are instead focusing on other things, such as making a map or foraging for food, you will either not get your passive perception or be at disadvantage to notice (-5 to passive perception).
Thanks but can you tell me where is the rulling for disadvantage if not searching for enemies (or is a home rule)?
DM's call, normally engaging in those activities prevents getting passive perception, but sometimes that may be inappropriate.
Found what you are talking about (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/adventuring#ActivityWhileTraveling).
The noticing threats section would apply before combat starts. In particular, you may give ambushing enemies advantage on stealth while further away (against the passive perception of adventurers looking for threats), and no advantage when launching the attack to determine surprise (against the passive perception of all adventures).
There are a lot of grey areas in the rules where DMs have to make judgment calls.
To the disadvantage when not searching: I think somewhere in the DM's Guide it says that disadvantage on passive perception can be treated as a -5 to it and advantage as a +5 if I understand your question correctly.
Basic Rules > Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores > Ability Checks > Passive Checks
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Here's how to determine a character's total for a passive check:
10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check
If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score.
Basic Rules > Chapter 7: Using Ability Scores > Advantage and Disadvantage
You usually gain advantage or disadvantage through the use of special abilities, actions, or spells. Inspiration can also give a character advantage. The DM can also decide that circumstances influence a roll in one direction or the other and grant advantage or impose disadvantage as a result.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement > Activity while traveling > Noticing threats
Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat. The DM might decide that a threat can be noticed only by characters in a particular rank.
While traveling at a fast pace, characters take a –5 penalty to their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to notice hidden threats.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement > Activity while traveling > Other Activities
Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don’t contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group’s chance of noticing hidden threats.
So, for an ambush, the DM will roll a Dex(Stealth) check, usually an average of the ambushing party. As the adventurers approach the encounter he will do a passive check to see if any character has a passive Wis(Perception) score higher than the rolled Dex(Stealth) check. If they do, they notice the ambush and can alert the party which will immediately initiate combat (most likely) without surprise. Roll Initiative and proceed as usual. If no one has a higher passive Wis(Perception) score, then the ambush is successful and the attackers surprise the party. Any character doing something other than the default action of Noticing threats simply does not make the passive check. They most likely do not get disadvantage because they do not make the check. I suppose the DM could decide that the ambushers notice that they are being noticed and are able to attack before the call goes out to the rest of the party, therefore surprising the adventurers that didn't notice.
In the case of the "lost mines of phandelenver" adventure, it is saying to perform the passive check and find out if the party is surprised or not.
Looking for threats is an activity "while traveling" - those are rules to use while engaged in overland travel, as in you can move slightly slower but be more aware of your surroundings, or you can move faster than usual but be less careful/stealthy.
In lost mine, you're inside a goblin cave on your guard. The overland travel rules don't really come into play. So in that case, you just roll perception vs. stealth and decide which characters see the goblins and which have no idea they're about to get stabbed. :)
RAW, no. You roll stealth for the enemy, and compare it to the parties Passive Perception. You only have active perception rolls when someone is actively taking the Search action.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement > Activity while traveling
As adventurers travel through a dungeon or the wilderness, they need to remain alert for danger, and some characters might perform other tasks to help the group’s journey.
Basic Rules > Chapter 8: Adventuring > Movement >Speed > Travel Pace
The Travel Pace table assumes that characters travel for 8 hours in day. They can push on beyond that limit, at the risk of exhaustion.
"While traveling" is not simply overland travel rules. it refers to the difference between movement that is not measured in speed per round, set at a pace, and movement that is measured in speed per round, such as in combat. When you are moving at pace then it is assumed that characters are still doing something per round as they move, by default they are Noticing Threats. Think of Jason Borne walking into a diner. He notices threats, it's just automatic. So the DM rolls the ambushers stealth against the passive perception of the group when a member of the group is in a position where they could perceive a threat. The DM chooses if the whole party can perceive or if individual members are perceiving. If any member of the party perceives the ambush, they will alert the party and the ambush fails to surprise anyone. As I said, the DM could possibly rule that the ambush launches after the threat is perceived but before members of the party are alerted. The members not alerted would be surprised. This is not SOP, but it may be what the adventure "lost mines of phandelenver" is asking for.
Correct - I just thought "overland travel" was an easier generic term to comprehend than "non-combat / dungeon-crawling movement". I'm usually anti-jargon in explanations. :)
Also, "If any member of the party perceives the ambush, they will alert the party and the ambush fails to surprise anyone" is also not RAW. If the situation justifies it, then yes, the perceptive character could spot the enemies and alert the others before combat begins. However, if not, the "surprised" condition is determined on an individual, PC-by-PC and monster-by-monster basis. You could absolutely have perceptive unsurprised PCs and oblivious surprised PCs in the same party at the start of combat.
I've always rolled against the parties highest passive perception. Unless I really wanted it to be an ambush. "Shhh, you didn't read that" *wink*
-Sol
Basic Rules > Chapter 9: Combat > The Order of Combat > Surprise
The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.
You are right. I apologize. I guess I've been playing it wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.