To create Holy Water (flask), the PHB states you need 25 gp in powdered silver. The spell Ceremony from XGE also can produce a vial of Holy Water, and also requires 25 gp in powdered silver.
If I'm taking 250 sp, which value 25 gp, that equals 5 pounds of silver as a material component for a flask or vial of water.
I will disregard that a vial holds 4 ounces, whereas the flask holds 16 ounces, but the conundrum remains.
Hauling around 5 pounds of silver to be able to create Holy Water which then only weighs 1 pound (flask), seems disconnected.
I understand that from an game economic view, you don't want to have players create Holy Water from a cheaper component and then sell it for a higher price, but I'd think that even diamond dust worth 25 gp would make for a 'better' material component.
For a level 1 spell slot and a 1 hour cast time, the material component ought to be easy to come by, in my opinion, but try getting 250 sp from your group... ;)
Did I miss anything? How does it work in your group?
25gp worth of powdered silver is not 250 silver coins ground up into dust, it is just a component that you acquire from ye olde powdered silver emporium which happens to have an outlet in every single city, town, hamlet and homestead in the land. It weighs effectively nothing. I imagine it is a pinch of particularly purified stuff, while a 'silver' coin is some alloy of tin and lead with just a hint of silver for colour.
In my games we don't track material components at all, so casting this spell would just involve sacrificing 25gp during casting.
25gp worth of powdered silver is not 250 silver coins ground up into dust, it is just a component that you acquire from ye olde powdered silver emporium which happens to have an outlet in every single city, town, hamlet and homestead in the land. It weighs effectively nothing. I imagine it is a pinch of particularly purified stuff, while a 'silver' coin is some alloy of tin and lead with just a hint of silver for colour.
I disagree with your conception of coins in the world of D&D. What you seem to propose is that the fantasy world uses a fiat currency. If that were the case, there would be no reason for a silver coin you found in dungeon treasure chest to be worth one fiat "silver" piece. At least it would be an extreme coincidence if that were the case.
The weight of these consumed ingredients is definitely a problem, but I don't think that ceremony was necessarily intended to be used in the field. I seems to me a situation where you grab a handful of silver powder from your church before you go to perform a ceremony.
I just did the math and based on a coin weighing 1/50 lb that makes the gold coin a bit larger than a penny, a silver coin a bit larger than a quarter, and a copper coin a bit smaller than a dollar coin. That means that 25 gp of silver is about the volume of 6 rolls of quarters. It could comfortably fit in a pouch, but I wouldn't want to carry enough for multiple castings.
(Also interesting, but significantly less relevant: at today's real-world prices, instead of 10 copper per silver and 10 silver per gold, the actual ratio would be 60 copper per silver and 80 silver per gold.)
Dilution/creation: can more holy water be created by just putting one drop of holy water into non holy water?
No, you would either be expending (pouring the holy water into the water) or desecrating the holy water (pouring the water into the holy water). Either way, you are down one Holy Water (flask).
You are dealing with a spell/ceremony to a god. The silver is an offering that is "consumed" as it is taken by your diety in exchange for the hallowing of the water. The Silver is a representation of purity, and the value is representative of your dedication. You are right that coin weight is based on the physical value of each metal, but powdered silver may not be the exact weight because manufacturing cost is involved, not necessarily the entirety of the material itself.
You are dealing with a spell/ceremony to a god. The silver is an offering that is "consumed" as it is taken by your diety in exchange for the hallowing of the water. The Silver is a representation of purity, and the value is representative of your dedication. You are right that coin weight is based on the physical value of each metal, but powdered silver may not be the exact weight because manufacturing cost is involved, not necessarily the entirety of the material itself.
We don't know what the silver represents in this scenario, but you are right about the difference between coin weights and the weight of pure metals. In modern times, coins are actually alloys and a gold or silver coin wouldn't be pure metals. This was sometimes true historically as well. In D&D, we don't really know.
However, when the [spell]Ceremony[spell] is used to create Holy Water, it consumes the silver. It is easy to assume that this means the silver is incorporated into the holy water, but that is not necessarily true. A consumed material component might be transformed or essentially destroyed. In this case, it is a component of the ritual and I don't think there is any silver in the Holy Water itself.
As it is not an independent item, there is no defined weight and I don't think it is intended to be burdensome. You probably aren't meant to be carrying out pouches of powdered silver to make Holy Water ad hoc either, though.
Your link is to the 1014 version. The creation mechanic isn't in the 2024 version. My opinion is that Holy Water is now mundane equipment and can be made by any Cleric or Pally using crafting rules (longer but cheaper to make).
Your link is to the 1014 version. The creation mechanic isn't in the 2024 version. My opinion is that Holy Water is now mundane equipment and can be made by any Cleric or Pally using crafting rules (longer but cheaper to make).
This was the same in 2014. In 2024 the mundane crafting got faster/better, but the comparison is the same. In 2024, crafting Holy Water takes 3 days. In 2014, it took 5 days.
Your link is to the 1014 version. The creation mechanic isn't in the 2024 version. My opinion is that Holy Water is now mundane equipment and can be made by any Cleric or Pally using crafting rules (longer but cheaper to make).
Ceremony is from Xanathar's, which has not been officially updated and thus remains valid. In any case, the problem of five pounds of silver becoming a pound of holy water has been noticed for a while, but it's mostly an artifact of precious metals being... not very precious... in D&D.
Your link is to the 1014 version. The creation mechanic isn't in the 2024 version. My opinion is that Holy Water is now mundane equipment and can be made by any Cleric or Pally using crafting rules (longer but cheaper to make).
This was the same in 2014. In 2024 the mundane crafting got faster/better, but the comparison is the same. In 2024, crafting Holy Water takes 3 days. In 2014, it took 5 days.
7 days for that, but it's free. It can technically take more time if the DM makes bastion turns longer. Making super holy water is a nice option... that players can't do or purchase independently so chalk that up to another way 5e discourages PC crafting.
To create Holy Water (flask), the PHB states you need 25 gp in powdered silver. The spell Ceremony from XGE also can produce a vial of Holy Water, and also requires 25 gp in powdered silver.
The PHB also states (https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/phb/equipment#Coinage) that 50 coins weigh one pound.
If I'm taking 250 sp, which value 25 gp, that equals 5 pounds of silver as a material component for a flask or vial of water.
I will disregard that a vial holds 4 ounces, whereas the flask holds 16 ounces, but the conundrum remains.
Hauling around 5 pounds of silver to be able to create Holy Water which then only weighs 1 pound (flask), seems disconnected.
I understand that from an game economic view, you don't want to have players create Holy Water from a cheaper component and then sell it for a higher price, but I'd think that even diamond dust worth 25 gp would make for a 'better' material component.
For a level 1 spell slot and a 1 hour cast time, the material component ought to be easy to come by, in my opinion, but try getting 250 sp from your group... ;)
Did I miss anything? How does it work in your group?
More Interesting Lock Picking Rules
25gp worth of powdered silver is not 250 silver coins ground up into dust, it is just a component that you acquire from ye olde powdered silver emporium which happens to have an outlet in every single city, town, hamlet and homestead in the land. It weighs effectively nothing. I imagine it is a pinch of particularly purified stuff, while a 'silver' coin is some alloy of tin and lead with just a hint of silver for colour.
In my games we don't track material components at all, so casting this spell would just involve sacrificing 25gp during casting.
I assume the labor and process of powdering silver fit for a "potion" type ingredient was cost vs weight issues. Maybe?
Dilution/creation: can more holy water be created by just putting one drop of holy water into non holy water?
No, you would either be expending (pouring the holy water into the water) or desecrating the holy water (pouring the water into the holy water). Either way, you are down one Holy Water (flask).
Edit: grammar
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
The spell consumes the silver, it is not physically placed in the vial that becomes holy water.
You are dealing with a spell/ceremony to a god. The silver is an offering that is "consumed" as it is taken by your diety in exchange for the hallowing of the water. The Silver is a representation of purity, and the value is representative of your dedication. You are right that coin weight is based on the physical value of each metal, but powdered silver may not be the exact weight because manufacturing cost is involved, not necessarily the entirety of the material itself.
We don't know what the silver represents in this scenario, but you are right about the difference between coin weights and the weight of pure metals. In modern times, coins are actually alloys and a gold or silver coin wouldn't be pure metals. This was sometimes true historically as well. In D&D, we don't really know.
However, when the [spell]Ceremony[spell] is used to create Holy Water, it consumes the silver. It is easy to assume that this means the silver is incorporated into the holy water, but that is not necessarily true. A consumed material component might be transformed or essentially destroyed. In this case, it is a component of the ritual and I don't think there is any silver in the Holy Water itself.
As it is not an independent item, there is no defined weight and I don't think it is intended to be burdensome. You probably aren't meant to be carrying out pouches of powdered silver to make Holy Water ad hoc either, though.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Your link is to the 1014 version. The creation mechanic isn't in the 2024 version. My opinion is that Holy Water is now mundane equipment and can be made by any Cleric or Pally using crafting rules (longer but cheaper to make).
This was the same in 2014. In 2024 the mundane crafting got faster/better, but the comparison is the same. In 2024, crafting Holy Water takes 3 days. In 2014, it took 5 days.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Ceremony is from Xanathar's, which has not been officially updated and thus remains valid. In any case, the problem of five pounds of silver becoming a pound of holy water has been noticed for a while, but it's mostly an artifact of precious metals being... not very precious... in D&D.
Honestly, I expect they dropped the special crafting blurb from 2024 Holy Water since Ceremony already makes for a better vehicle for the concept.
Another option: Sacristy.
7 days for that, but it's free. It can technically take more time if the DM makes bastion turns longer. Making super holy water is a nice option... that players can't do or purchase independently so chalk that up to another way 5e discourages PC crafting.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.