I'm trying to figure out what it should look like when a Dhampir uses their Spider Climb racial ability. RAW are:
You have a climbing speed equal to your walking speed. In addition, at 3rd level, you can move up, down, and across vertical surfaces and upside down along ceilings, while leaving your hands free.
Most discussions I've read on Slippers of Spider Climbing conclude that the wearer can walk on walls and ceilings while leaving their hands free to use weapons, cast spells, etc., and I'm assuming the Dhampir's Spider Climb ability is similar. But, this could still play out differently on different tables, especially since it's a "natural", racial ability instead of a spell or magic item. I think the important distinction is whether the Spider Climb A) actually changes gravity for the PC and their equipment, or B) the ability makes the character's feet stick, like a suction cup (or like an actual spider with thousands of microscopic setules that cling to the surfaces).
If it's A, then the character walks like David Bowie in Labyrinth, perpendicular to whatever surface they're on. If they're on the ceiling and they fall prone, it's flat against the ceiling, but if they drop an item, it falls down to the ground, because it's no longer part of their equipment. This is the more powerful option.
If it's B, then a lot more questions and problems arise:
Even with a Climbing Speed, the PC would presumably need to stay as upright as possible while climbing a wall, but would probably hang straight down once they got to the ceiling.
Everything they're carrying would have to be secured, otherwise arrows would fall out of quivers, cloaks would hang to the floor, holding a torch would burn their hand etc.
If they were knocked prone, they'd just be dangling from their feet like an upside-down Christmas tree ornament, or like a bat, I suppose.
Would their hands and/or knees also stick to the floors and ceilings, in case they wanted to crawl?
Is there a super difficult ability check for shooting a bow and arrow while hanging upside down?
All this assumes that the Dhampir, unlike a Monk, can stop their movement while climbing without falling--but maybe you don't play it that way.
That is interesting. Does everything fall out of their pockets?
First, it seems clear this is a DM ruling sort of thing. If it were me, I’d go with what the OP calls the labyrinth example, just for simplicity’s sake. Otherwise, you’re going item by item down the equipment list and deciding what falls, what stays where it is, what flips the other way and becomes annoying. In addition to all the other issues raised by the OP. No way am I going to spend time sorting that out.
That is interesting. Does everything fall out of their pockets?
First, it seems clear this is a DM ruling sort of thing. If it were me, I’d go with what the OP calls the labyrinth example, just for simplicity’s sake. Otherwise, you’re going item by item down the equipment list and deciding what falls, what stays where it is, what flips the other way and becomes annoying. In addition to all the other issues raised by the OP. No way am I going to spend time sorting that out.
Adventures will move roughly lots of times. 99% of their stuff is going to be strapped or tucked rather securely. The remaining 1% a character with spider climb (especially as a racial trait) can learn to subconsciously hold/adjust. It might be a bit awkward, but nothing should fall out.
That's my logic for it anyway. Like I said the only differences between the examples is how they are visually described and what happens when prone.
I guess we don't really have any rules for "stuff falling out of pockets" or similar, equipment is usually either held, worn or carried. So yeah, it seems like it's in 100% DM ruling territory.
I'd say that rules as intended it's probably supposed to be option 1) because that introduces the least extra complexity, because otherwise you have to consider literally every item on your character and how they might have stowed it; if it's in a pocket does that pocket button shut? If they've got a bag of holding are they wearing it like a satchel on the strap, or have they secured it in some other way (or put it inside their backpack) and so-on.
While mechanically I usually advise taking the simplest option, I think for the character it'd certainly be interesting to consider this since it's something they can do, so a smart character would do what they can to secure everything, but that'd be flavour rather than mechanics.
Also worth noting, but bow quivers often contain something that the tips of the arrows can pierce into, or are designed to "squeeze" the arrows so they aren't just rattling around like a sack of chopsticks; you want to be able to know you can grab an arrow without looking, rather than having to swing your hand about trying to get one in the heat of combat. Either (or both) of these features should mean the arrows won't just fall out of the quiver when upside down as they shouldn't be loose, but obviously this isn't really what they're designed for.
How i see it, a Dhampir can climb up walls and ceilings by literally walking upon them. Naturally, carried equipment must be held or secured to avoid falling when upside down, but it's something as a DM i would assume the equipment of a character is already, and thus would not have anything fall from a climbing Dhampir unless it would serve the campaign story somehow.
That's legit. So in your ruling, gravity still affects the Dhampir the same as everyone else, but somehow their feet stick to the walls and ceilings. Presumably they'd still have to stand at some kind of angle, like this guy, only without the use of his hand:
Still, on the ceiling, he'd just be dangling, like this dancer, only without the pole:
If she were shooting a bow or using melee in this position, it'd be a struggle. Would you impose disadvantage or some other penalty? Also, should we presume the Dhampir couldn't run or slide on the ceiling, because when both feet lost contact with the ceiling, they'd fall?
And, in this example, again if they fell prone, they'd just be dangling from their feet.
We assume all his stuff is secured, just as we do when a monk runs up a wall or any character does anything acrobatic, but he's prone--or even unconscious--with his feet stuck to the ceiling. Does that sound about right?
I say you fall prone on whatever surface you are on.
Me too, i wouldn't have any difference mechanically speaking.
This ruling makes it easier, and it assumes option A: gravity changes for the Dhampir. When the Dhampir is walking on the ceiling, their gravity pulls their entire body towards the ceiling. If they trip or lie down, they end up flat on the ceiling. Right?
If she were shooting a bow or using melee in this position, it'd be a struggle. Would you impose disadvantage or some other penalty? Also, should we presume the Dhampir couldn't run or slide on the ceiling, because when both feet lost contact with the ceiling, they'd fall?
No, it just takes practice (same as getting good with a bow in the first place, less to build on the existing skill), I've seen a video of a guy shooting a bow while upside down on a pole (the again, the same guy was hitting bullseyes mid backflip, so maybe not a normal example).
Running probably requires a different movement, but should be able to pull off a dash. Not sure about sliding, because prone (see below).
We assume all his stuff is secured, just as we do when a monk runs up a wall or any character does anything acrobatic, but he's prone--or even unconscious--with his feet stuck to the ceiling. Does that sound about right?
Unconscious should definitely just fall. It might 've reasonable to treat it kind of like flying and have them fall while prone. It makes sense to me, but would be more of a house rule.
On the issue of falling prone it seems like they fall off, due to the first bullet point of that condition:
A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
Spider climb in both spell and trait form feel like a special movement option, and prone specifically states that you can only crawl, i.e- you cannot spider climb, though what exactly constitutes a "movement option" is somewhat unclear. Following this logic though the creature will detach from the ceiling and fall if knocked prone.
Thinking more about the theming, I realise that in my imagination I always picture a vampiric spider climb as… well, how a spider climbs, so the creature scuttles over the surface as close to spider-like as possible, i.e- all fours. Since they're attaching magically (rather than having barbed feet and hands) it probably doesn't matter if they're holding things in their hands, just as long as some part of their arms makes contact so they always have two or more points of contact on the surface to "stick". Really we only have the name to go by, and spiders don't need all of their legs on a surface to attach to it, they only need enough, and can lift their front legs to manipulate things without coming unstuck, so this seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
I just think that getting into the detail of whether every belonging needs to be secured just overcomplicates things; you might worry about it for some key items, quest items in particular, but otherwise I'd just assume that an adventurer's gear is well secured to prevent losses while running, jumping, being tossed around like a rag-doll etc.
I say you fall prone on whatever surface you are on.
Me too, i wouldn't have any difference mechanically speaking.
This ruling makes it easier, and it assumes option A: gravity changes for the Dhampir. When the Dhampir is walking on the ceiling, their gravity pulls their entire body towards the ceiling. If they trip or lie down, they end up flat on the ceiling. Right?
Correct they would still be climbing across the vertical surface or upside down along the ceiling. The type of movement causing you to fall when knocked prone is flying, and only do so without the ability to hover or being held aloft by magic somehow.
On the issue of falling prone it seems like they fall off, due to the first bullet point of that condition:
A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
Spider climb in both spell and trait form feel like a special movement option, and prone specifically states that you can only crawl, i.e- you cannot spider climb, though what exactly constitutes a "movement option" is somewhat unclear. Following this logic though the creature will detach from the ceiling and fall if knocked prone.
As written, the Dhampir is able to move (not just strictly climb) across vertical surface and ceiling, which may include crawling in contact with those surfaces.
Similarly, i woundn't have a Dhampir fall after it end moving while vertical or upside down, meaning it hold onto the surface somehow even when not actually moving when climbing this way.
On the issue of falling prone it seems like they fall off, due to the first bullet point of that condition:
A prone creature's only movement option is to crawl, unless it stands up and thereby ends the condition.
Spider climb in both spell and trait form feel like a special movement option, and prone specifically states that you can only crawl, i.e- you cannot spider climb, though what exactly constitutes a "movement option" is somewhat unclear. Following this logic though the creature will detach from the ceiling and fall if knocked prone.
Thinking more about the theming, I realise that in my imagination I always picture a vampiric spider climb as… well, how a spider climbs, so the creature scuttles over the surface as close to spider-like as possible, i.e- all fours. Since they're attaching magically (rather than having barbed feet and hands) it probably doesn't matter if they're holding things in their hands, just as long as some part of their arms makes contact so they always have two or more points of contact on the surface to "stick". Really we only have the name to go by, and spiders don't need all of their legs on a surface to attach to it, they only need enough, and can lift their front legs to manipulate things with coming unstuck, so this seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
I just think that getting into the detail of whether every belonging needs to be secured just overcomplicates things; you might worry about it for some key items, quest items in particular, but otherwise I'd just assume that an adventurer's gear is well secured to prevent losses while running, jumping, being tossed around like a rag-doll etc.
Good points. Jeremy Crawford's post suggests that the Dhampir wouldn't fall:
No general rule causes a climbing creature to fall if knocked prone. As DM, I'd look at the environment and decide.
But that's not ironclad, because it was written before Dhampirs were official.
I like what you're saying about how vampires climb in movies, and how spiders do it in real life. Gary Oldman crawled up a wall in Dracula, but he did it quickly. Maybe a Dhampir does the same, and just puts a knee down for stability when s/he has to shoot a bow upside down, and he's able to do it all at the same speed as walking because ... D&D reasons!™.
Beyond my geeky curiosity, the only reason this matters is because I want a dhampir to be able to stop in the middle of a wall or ceiling and shoot an arrow at a bad guy, and I'm not sure if my DM will allow it, or what it would look like if he did.
We assume all his stuff is secured, just as we do when a monk runs up a wall or any character does anything acrobatic, but he's prone--or even unconscious--with his feet stuck to the ceiling. Does that sound about right?
I'd rule holding on when climbing is conscious and thus unconscious creature usually falls unless secured by climbing equipment's fall arrest system.
I guess it makes sense for "gravity to shift to keep the Dhampir walking on whatever surface". If it were because of natural things like the millions of hairs on spiders or whatever geckos have going on, then it wouldn't make sense to work if they were wearing things like armored boots and whatnot.
Interesting question, though. If you are going with "individual gravity", would you allow a Dhampir to jump across gaps in a ceiling like someone jumping over a gap in the floor? Or does jumping off of the surface cause their gravity to revert to normal?
One thing, however, for those that say "well if it's just sticky feet, all their stuff would fall out of their pockets!" But how often do DM's check to see if things fall out of PC's pockets for any other types of movement in game? PC's do flips, roll down hills, tumble and roll and all sorts of stuff. How often do DM's call for check to see if they keep all their stuff in their pocket? It might be more prevalent than I think, but I know I never do.
I guess it makes sense for "gravity to shift to keep the Dhampir walking on whatever surface". If it were because of natural things like the millions of hairs on spiders or whatever geckos have going on, then it wouldn't make sense to work if they were wearing things like armored boots and whatnot.
Interesting question, though. If you are going with "individual gravity", would you allow a Dhampir to jump across gaps in a ceiling like someone jumping over a gap in the floor? Or does jumping off of the surface cause their gravity to revert to normal?
I would certainly return them to "normal gravity" once they stopped spider climbing, but I am also in between the personal gravity and sticky feet camps.
One thing, however, for those that say "well if it's just sticky feet, all their stuff would fall out of their pockets!" But how often do DM's check to see if things fall out of PC's pockets for any other types of movement in game? PC's do flips, roll down hills, tumble and roll and all sorts of stuff. How often do DM's call for check to see if they keep all their stuff in their pocket? It might be more prevalent than I think, but I know I never do.
As written, the Dhampir is able to move (not just strictly climb) across vertical surface and ceiling, which may include crawling in contact with those surfaces.
This is where the moving rules get annoying, and spider climb isn't that well worded; for one thing, if you read them literally then spider climb only seems to apply while actually moving, but we can assume that that's not how we're supposed to interpret that because technically you can't attack while moving, as in game terms you move, stop to attack, then move again, there's no real "attacking on the move" as such.
But does that mean that the spider climb rules apply to how you cling onto a surface? That's where it gets really vague, as the movement rules don't really talk about doing that in the first place; when you climb a wall, between your turns you must be holding on when you're not moving or you would fall off, but the rules don't tell us this, it's just left up to common sense. But what's common sense about standing on the ceiling? 😂
Similarly, i woundn't have a Dhampir fall after it end moving while vertical or upside down, meaning it hold onto the surface somehow even when not actually moving when climbing this way.
This is where the rules really need more detail, or a sage advice or something. Technically speaking any character can climb across a ceiling if they can justify how (i.e- suitable handholds), but doing so will almost always occupy their hands as they hold on, including between turns. Spider climb lets you climb over the ceiling without justification and while keeping your hands free, but it says nothing about being attached and safe from falling.
But then the rules don't really tell us anything about climbing and falling either, so this is again left to common sense (but we're dealing with someone upside down on a ceiling).
One thing I would add is that I don't think you can choose the type of movement you're doing on the ceiling; I think it's supposed to still be climbing. Both the spell and Dhampir ability grant you a climbing speed, which would be redundant if you could simply choose to "walk" up the wall or on the ceiling. This also probably means that even with spider climb you probably move at half speed on the ceiling (as a climbing speed only works vertically). So I'm pretty sure you can't just choose to be crawling on the ceiling when you go prone, you'd still be "climbing", which means prone would cause you to drop.
But like I say, the movement rules are not really well defined enough for this, and spider climb doesn't give us enough detail to know for sure how it's supposed to operate. I tend it to think it just lets you climb vertically more easily, and keeps your hands free while climbing, but this is definitely not how many groups run it (I've seen plenty where you just run around on the ceiling like you were on the floor, but it doesn't really tell you you can do this).
Where things get even more confusing is that for an actual spider the rule isn't the same, what they get is:
Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
So does that mean that a creature using spider climb or similar does need to make checks because their rule doesn't say they don't? 🤦♂️
I'm currently playing a Dhampir (also Way of Shadow Monk but that doesn't matter for now as we're only level 5 just yet) and we handle it like the Dhampir screws with gravity so he's literally walking on the ceiling like it's the ground, however when he is forced to go prone (they should be able to press themselves against the ceiling if they want to) or pushed/dragged gravity applies again. As for the stuff he's carrying around, it hasn't come up yet but I wouldn't mind either way. The idea is that the gravity ignoring capability applies to the Dhampir and only the Dhampir but I'd be fine with it also applying to everything they're carrying with them until they willingly let go of it.
Another interesting scenario would be if someone would jump at the Dhampir trying to drag them down from the ceiling. Personally I'd probably check how much the Dhampir can carry and potentially let them make a STR(Athletics) check if it's above their carrying capacity to see whether their spider walking is enough to keep them on the ceiling or not.
I'm trying to figure out what it should look like when a Dhampir uses their Spider Climb racial ability. RAW are:
Most discussions I've read on Slippers of Spider Climbing conclude that the wearer can walk on walls and ceilings while leaving their hands free to use weapons, cast spells, etc., and I'm assuming the Dhampir's Spider Climb ability is similar. But, this could still play out differently on different tables, especially since it's a "natural", racial ability instead of a spell or magic item. I think the important distinction is whether the Spider Climb A) actually changes gravity for the PC and their equipment, or B) the ability makes the character's feet stick, like a suction cup (or like an actual spider with thousands of microscopic setules that cling to the surfaces).
If it's A, then the character walks like David Bowie in Labyrinth, perpendicular to whatever surface they're on. If they're on the ceiling and they fall prone, it's flat against the ceiling, but if they drop an item, it falls down to the ground, because it's no longer part of their equipment. This is the more powerful option.
If it's B, then a lot more questions and problems arise:
All this assumes that the Dhampir, unlike a Monk, can stop their movement while climbing without falling--but maybe you don't play it that way.
So, how do you run it at your table?
As far as I can tell, only observational description and what happens when knocked prone change between these 2 interpretations.
It actually is an interesting question as to what happens if a climbing creature (spider climb or otherwise) is knocked prone.
That is interesting. Does everything fall out of their pockets?
First, it seems clear this is a DM ruling sort of thing. If it were me, I’d go with what the OP calls the labyrinth example, just for simplicity’s sake. Otherwise, you’re going item by item down the equipment list and deciding what falls, what stays where it is, what flips the other way and becomes annoying. In addition to all the other issues raised by the OP. No way am I going to spend time sorting that out.
Adventures will move roughly lots of times. 99% of their stuff is going to be strapped or tucked rather securely. The remaining 1% a character with spider climb (especially as a racial trait) can learn to subconsciously hold/adjust. It might be a bit awkward, but nothing should fall out.
That's my logic for it anyway. Like I said the only differences between the examples is how they are visually described and what happens when prone.
I guess we don't really have any rules for "stuff falling out of pockets" or similar, equipment is usually either held, worn or carried. So yeah, it seems like it's in 100% DM ruling territory.
I'd say that rules as intended it's probably supposed to be option 1) because that introduces the least extra complexity, because otherwise you have to consider literally every item on your character and how they might have stowed it; if it's in a pocket does that pocket button shut? If they've got a bag of holding are they wearing it like a satchel on the strap, or have they secured it in some other way (or put it inside their backpack) and so-on.
While mechanically I usually advise taking the simplest option, I think for the character it'd certainly be interesting to consider this since it's something they can do, so a smart character would do what they can to secure everything, but that'd be flavour rather than mechanics.
Also worth noting, but bow quivers often contain something that the tips of the arrows can pierce into, or are designed to "squeeze" the arrows so they aren't just rattling around like a sack of chopsticks; you want to be able to know you can grab an arrow without looking, rather than having to swing your hand about trying to get one in the heat of combat. Either (or both) of these features should mean the arrows won't just fall out of the quiver when upside down as they shouldn't be loose, but obviously this isn't really what they're designed for.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
How i see it, a Dhampir can climb up walls and ceilings by literally walking upon them. Naturally, carried equipment must be held or secured to avoid falling when upside down, but it's something as a DM i would assume the equipment of a character is already, and thus would not have anything fall from a climbing Dhampir unless it would serve the campaign story somehow.
I say you fall prone on whatever surface you are on.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Me too, i wouldn't have any difference mechanically speaking.
That's legit. So in your ruling, gravity still affects the Dhampir the same as everyone else, but somehow their feet stick to the walls and ceilings. Presumably they'd still have to stand at some kind of angle, like this guy, only without the use of his hand:
Still, on the ceiling, he'd just be dangling, like this dancer, only without the pole:
If she were shooting a bow or using melee in this position, it'd be a struggle. Would you impose disadvantage or some other penalty? Also, should we presume the Dhampir couldn't run or slide on the ceiling, because when both feet lost contact with the ceiling, they'd fall?
And, in this example, again if they fell prone, they'd just be dangling from their feet.
We assume all his stuff is secured, just as we do when a monk runs up a wall or any character does anything acrobatic, but he's prone--or even unconscious--with his feet stuck to the ceiling. Does that sound about right?
This ruling makes it easier, and it assumes option A: gravity changes for the Dhampir. When the Dhampir is walking on the ceiling, their gravity pulls their entire body towards the ceiling. If they trip or lie down, they end up flat on the ceiling. Right?
No, it just takes practice (same as getting good with a bow in the first place, less to build on the existing skill), I've seen a video of a guy shooting a bow while upside down on a pole (the again, the same guy was hitting bullseyes mid backflip, so maybe not a normal example).
Running probably requires a different movement, but should be able to pull off a dash. Not sure about sliding, because prone (see below).
Unconscious should definitely just fall. It might 've reasonable to treat it kind of like flying and have them fall while prone. It makes sense to me, but would be more of a house rule.
On the issue of falling prone it seems like they fall off, due to the first bullet point of that condition:
Spider climb in both spell and trait form feel like a special movement option, and prone specifically states that you can only crawl, i.e- you cannot spider climb, though what exactly constitutes a "movement option" is somewhat unclear. Following this logic though the creature will detach from the ceiling and fall if knocked prone.
Thinking more about the theming, I realise that in my imagination I always picture a vampiric spider climb as… well, how a spider climbs, so the creature scuttles over the surface as close to spider-like as possible, i.e- all fours. Since they're attaching magically (rather than having barbed feet and hands) it probably doesn't matter if they're holding things in their hands, just as long as some part of their arms makes contact so they always have two or more points of contact on the surface to "stick". Really we only have the name to go by, and spiders don't need all of their legs on a surface to attach to it, they only need enough, and can lift their front legs to manipulate things without coming unstuck, so this seems like a reasonable way to look at it.
I just think that getting into the detail of whether every belonging needs to be secured just overcomplicates things; you might worry about it for some key items, quest items in particular, but otherwise I'd just assume that an adventurer's gear is well secured to prevent losses while running, jumping, being tossed around like a rag-doll etc.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Correct they would still be climbing across the vertical surface or upside down along the ceiling. The type of movement causing you to fall when knocked prone is flying, and only do so without the ability to hover or being held aloft by magic somehow.
As written, the Dhampir is able to move (not just strictly climb) across vertical surface and ceiling, which may include crawling in contact with those surfaces.
Similarly, i woundn't have a Dhampir fall after it end moving while vertical or upside down, meaning it hold onto the surface somehow even when not actually moving when climbing this way.
Good points. Jeremy Crawford's post suggests that the Dhampir wouldn't fall:
But that's not ironclad, because it was written before Dhampirs were official.
I like what you're saying about how vampires climb in movies, and how spiders do it in real life. Gary Oldman crawled up a wall in Dracula, but he did it quickly. Maybe a Dhampir does the same, and just puts a knee down for stability when s/he has to shoot a bow upside down, and he's able to do it all at the same speed as walking because ... D&D reasons!™.
Beyond my geeky curiosity, the only reason this matters is because I want a dhampir to be able to stop in the middle of a wall or ceiling and shoot an arrow at a bad guy, and I'm not sure if my DM will allow it, or what it would look like if he did.
I'd rule holding on when climbing is conscious and thus unconscious creature usually falls unless secured by climbing equipment's fall arrest system.
I guess it makes sense for "gravity to shift to keep the Dhampir walking on whatever surface". If it were because of natural things like the millions of hairs on spiders or whatever geckos have going on, then it wouldn't make sense to work if they were wearing things like armored boots and whatnot.
Interesting question, though. If you are going with "individual gravity", would you allow a Dhampir to jump across gaps in a ceiling like someone jumping over a gap in the floor? Or does jumping off of the surface cause their gravity to revert to normal?
One thing, however, for those that say "well if it's just sticky feet, all their stuff would fall out of their pockets!" But how often do DM's check to see if things fall out of PC's pockets for any other types of movement in game? PC's do flips, roll down hills, tumble and roll and all sorts of stuff. How often do DM's call for check to see if they keep all their stuff in their pocket? It might be more prevalent than I think, but I know I never do.
I would certainly return them to "normal gravity" once they stopped spider climbing, but I am also in between the personal gravity and sticky feet camps.
Exactly. That's what I've been saying.
This is where the moving rules get annoying, and spider climb isn't that well worded; for one thing, if you read them literally then spider climb only seems to apply while actually moving, but we can assume that that's not how we're supposed to interpret that because technically you can't attack while moving, as in game terms you move, stop to attack, then move again, there's no real "attacking on the move" as such.
But does that mean that the spider climb rules apply to how you cling onto a surface? That's where it gets really vague, as the movement rules don't really talk about doing that in the first place; when you climb a wall, between your turns you must be holding on when you're not moving or you would fall off, but the rules don't tell us this, it's just left up to common sense. But what's common sense about standing on the ceiling? 😂
This is where the rules really need more detail, or a sage advice or something. Technically speaking any character can climb across a ceiling if they can justify how (i.e- suitable handholds), but doing so will almost always occupy their hands as they hold on, including between turns. Spider climb lets you climb over the ceiling without justification and while keeping your hands free, but it says nothing about being attached and safe from falling.
But then the rules don't really tell us anything about climbing and falling either, so this is again left to common sense (but we're dealing with someone upside down on a ceiling).
One thing I would add is that I don't think you can choose the type of movement you're doing on the ceiling; I think it's supposed to still be climbing. Both the spell and Dhampir ability grant you a climbing speed, which would be redundant if you could simply choose to "walk" up the wall or on the ceiling. This also probably means that even with spider climb you probably move at half speed on the ceiling (as a climbing speed only works vertically). So I'm pretty sure you can't just choose to be crawling on the ceiling when you go prone, you'd still be "climbing", which means prone would cause you to drop.
But like I say, the movement rules are not really well defined enough for this, and spider climb doesn't give us enough detail to know for sure how it's supposed to operate. I tend it to think it just lets you climb vertically more easily, and keeps your hands free while climbing, but this is definitely not how many groups run it (I've seen plenty where you just run around on the ceiling like you were on the floor, but it doesn't really tell you you can do this).
Where things get even more confusing is that for an actual spider the rule isn't the same, what they get is:
So does that mean that a creature using spider climb or similar does need to make checks because their rule doesn't say they don't? 🤦♂️
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I'm currently playing a Dhampir (also Way of Shadow Monk but that doesn't matter for now as we're only level 5 just yet) and we handle it like the Dhampir screws with gravity so he's literally walking on the ceiling like it's the ground, however when he is forced to go prone (they should be able to press themselves against the ceiling if they want to) or pushed/dragged gravity applies again. As for the stuff he's carrying around, it hasn't come up yet but I wouldn't mind either way. The idea is that the gravity ignoring capability applies to the Dhampir and only the Dhampir but I'd be fine with it also applying to everything they're carrying with them until they willingly let go of it.
Another interesting scenario would be if someone would jump at the Dhampir trying to drag them down from the ceiling. Personally I'd probably check how much the Dhampir can carry and potentially let them make a STR(Athletics) check if it's above their carrying capacity to see whether their spider walking is enough to keep them on the ceiling or not.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...