So, just recently dusted off my tomes and got back into dnd after a 20 year break. I'm DMing a group of first timers and old time veterans. The issue I ha e is that it appears that bows are essentially cannons firing with the dex modifier applying to the damage. Was this intentional or an oversized? For example, I have a halfing rogue with a short bow whose routinely doing more damage per shot than the tanks equiped with great weapons. Hell, the halfing even out does the ranger in the group due to his dex bonus.
Is this with the rogue's sneak attack damage included?
I noticed you said he's using a short bow which does 1d6 before modifiers. That alone shouldn't make a drastic difference, but I do want to make sure I understand entirely what's happening!
What's his dex bonus compared to the other characters' ability modifiers?
1d6 + Dex modifier is doing more damage than 2d6 + Str modifier (reroll 1s and 2s once)? Oh. You're a rogue. That's not 1d6 + Dex, it's (1 + half rogue level, rounded up)d6 + Dex. You'd be doing just as much damage with a shortsword. What level are you?
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Currently the party is lvl 3. This particular rough has 19 dex with a plus 7 modifier. On average he's hitting for about 12 per hit. I got some plans to counter it but I was just wondering if the dex modifier was suppose to add to damage. The previous versions of dnd did not allow the dex modifier to affect damage since the punch was from the bow. There use to be bow that you could add str modifiers to damage but they we're rare.
So, the damage for a ranged weapon should be the damage dice (1d6) plus the dexterity modifier and nothing else (which would max out a +5). Are you also adding in his strength modifier to the damage, or the proficiency? Neither of these should be added into damage modifiers for weapons.
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Currently the party is lvl 3. This particular rough has 19 dex with a plus 7 modifier.
Plus what? I don't know about other editions, but in 5e, modifier = (score/2, rounded down) - 5. Add your proficiency bonus ((level/4, rounded up) + 1) to things you're proficient with, which almost never includes damage.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Rogues are very powerful at lower levels. Wait until the melee guys get their extra attacks and the spellcasters get their hard-hitting spells and it will feel a lot more balanced.
At level 3 the proficiency bonus for attacking with a weapon you are proficient with is +2
This gives a rogue character with 19 dex a +6 to hit and a +4 to damage.
2) A level 3 rogue has sneak attack. This adds 2d6 to the damage IF the rogue qualifies for sneak attack. To gain sneak attack, they must have an enemy of the target within 5' of their target OR they have to have advantage on the attack roll. If the rogue doesn't have one of these then they do NOT get to roll extra damage for sneak attack.
A rogue that has sneak attack at level 3 with a short bow will have damage equal to 3d6+4
This is a bit more than most level 3 characters unless the other level 3s have a bonus action attack from a number of possible sources. Things even out at level 5 when the rogue gets another d6 but martial classes get extra attack.
However, if your rogue is adding +7 then they either have something magical or are doing something wrong.
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On the topic of damage from other characters ...
A character with a great sword would do 2d6+str modifier. A character using a finesse weapon like a rapier with dexterity to hit would be d8+dex. A warlock character using a rapier and casting a hex spell might do d8+d6+str. A fighter using a spear/quarterstaff/glaive/halberd would have a main attack for weapon damage+str and a bonus action attack at d4+str. Rangers usually have an ability at level 3 that increases their damage like colossus slayer which lets the ranger do an extra d8 of damage once/turn if the target is already damaged. In this case the ranger if using a long bow or rapier would be doing 2d8+dex compared to the rogue's 3d6+dex (but the rogue needs to set up the conditions for sneak attack while the ranger only needs the target to be previously damaged).
If you think a character is doing far better than other characters the first place to look (especially if you are new to 5e) is to make sure you have the rules right. After that, check to see that the other characters are using their class abilities and then third wait a couple of levels to see if the issue goes away. For example, a level 2-4 moon druid can be very powerful compared to a comparable level fighter if they switch to a brown bear but this is strongly mitigated by level 5 when the fighter gets extra attack.
I started playing D&D with 1e and I have found that 5e has the best balance of any version so far though there are some things that will stand out as "how can that be balanced" the first time you run into them.
eg. First time the rogue gets a critical hit on a sneak attack - the number of dice rolled and damage can feel huge. Similarly, a paladin choosing to use a smite on critical hit (exactly when they should use them) ... again a lot of dice get rolled. Often, this can eliminate the creature they are fighting in one blow ... so make it part of the narrative, have fun and move on, these cool die rolls don't happen that often but depending on which versions you have played before it can feel a bit unbalanced the first time you run into them. My experience so far though is that they aren't unbalanced, just fun.
The only thing that looks off about this scenario to me is that +7 seems a little high. It seems like there might be a modifier being improperly applied in there somewhere that is adding extra.
That said, Rogues do a lot of damage if they are getting Sneak Attack.
Currently the party is lvl 3. This particular rough has 19 dex with a plus 7 modifier. On average he's hitting for about 12 per hit. I got some plans to counter it but I was just wondering if the dex modifier was suppose to add to damage. The previous versions of dnd did not allow the dex modifier to affect damage since the punch was from the bow. There use to be bow that you could add str modifiers to damage but they we're rare.
Composite bows are not a thing anymore, nor should they be in 5e. Bows/Crossbows all add Dex modifier to damage (think more precisely shooting vital points).
The attack roll is calculated as [d20 + Dex mod + proficiency bonus + misc. modifiers]
The damage roll is calculated as [weapon damage die + Dex mod + misc. modifiers]
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Currently the party is lvl 3. This particular rough has 19 dex with a plus 7 modifier. On average he's hitting for about 12 per hit. I got some plans to counter it but I was just wondering if the dex modifier was suppose to add to damage. The previous versions of dnd did not allow the dex modifier to affect damage since the punch was from the bow. There use to be bow that you could add str modifiers to damage but they we're rare.
Even if you're incorrectly adding the Rogue's proficiency bonus to the damage rolls, I don't know how you get +7.
Rogue's Shortbow Damage = 1d6 + 4(Dex mod), possibly +2d6 when Sneak Attack applies, averaging either 7.5 or 14.5.
Tank's Attack Bonus = Str mod + 2(Proficiency Bonus)
Tank's Damage = 1d12/2d6 + Str mod, averaging somewhere in the 11-12 range, maybe a smidge more with the Great Weapon Fighting style.
Yes, Rogues can do a lot of damage when Sneak Attack is in play(which it often will be if the party has a tank who likes being up close and personal with the enemy. But keep in mind that the tank's damage is per attack, of which they will get more as they level up. Your Rogue with the shortbow will always be firing just once per round, so if they miss they've got nothing. The tank(by which I'm guessing you mean either Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian) will be getting at least two attacks eventually, potentially doubling their damage output, and making them more consistent damage dealers overall since the extra attack rolls will make their turns less all-or-nothing. Plus, damage output isn't the sole measure of a character's effectiveness.
Thanks for the input. I'm still wrapping my head around the 5e rules and trying to flush the 2nd edition ruleset I played with down the toilet. I'll make sure that pesky halfing rogue gets straightened out.
Thanks for the input. I'm still wrapping my head around the 5e rules and trying to flush the 2nd edition ruleset I played with down the toilet. I'll make sure that pesky halfing rogue gets straightened out.
Good luck with that, I still have nightmares involving THAC0 at times. 😂
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The +7 is added to the attack roll. The dex modifier for a 19dex is only 4 so a bow attack would be a d6+4. If he/she is able to do sneak attack damage then you add more d6’s to the damage roll.
What happened was he was combining his proficiency into damage. That combined with his overuse of sneak attack added up a shit ton. I nerfed down the sneak attack to some common sense stuff and reset him for the damage. Overall, easily resolved. Thanks for the help peeps.
Yeah, it sounds like the only thing wrong was the dex modifier?
Rogues probably should be outdamaging tanks. They fill the "glass cannon" role. They should probably do the most single-target damage of anyone in your party, but probably can't take a hit.
Sneak attack should not be nerfed normally. It has a set of parameters in which it works just fine. Also yes. Punch the rogue a few times and watch im bleed 😀
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So, just recently dusted off my tomes and got back into dnd after a 20 year break. I'm DMing a group of first timers and old time veterans. The issue I ha e is that it appears that bows are essentially cannons firing with the dex modifier applying to the damage. Was this intentional or an oversized? For example, I have a halfing rogue with a short bow whose routinely doing more damage per shot than the tanks equiped with great weapons. Hell, the halfing even out does the ranger in the group due to his dex bonus.
Is this with the rogue's sneak attack damage included?
I noticed you said he's using a short bow which does 1d6 before modifiers. That alone shouldn't make a drastic difference, but I do want to make sure I understand entirely what's happening!
What's his dex bonus compared to the other characters' ability modifiers?
1d6 + Dex modifier is doing more damage than 2d6 + Str modifier (reroll 1s and 2s once)? Oh. You're a rogue. That's not 1d6 + Dex, it's (1 + half rogue level, rounded up)d6 + Dex. You'd be doing just as much damage with a shortsword. What level are you?
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Currently the party is lvl 3. This particular rough has 19 dex with a plus 7 modifier. On average he's hitting for about 12 per hit. I got some plans to counter it but I was just wondering if the dex modifier was suppose to add to damage. The previous versions of dnd did not allow the dex modifier to affect damage since the punch was from the bow. There use to be bow that you could add str modifiers to damage but they we're rare.
So, the damage for a ranged weapon should be the damage dice (1d6) plus the dexterity modifier and nothing else (which would max out a +5). Are you also adding in his strength modifier to the damage, or the proficiency? Neither of these should be added into damage modifiers for weapons.
Three-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Re-imagining unpopular subclasses as part of FIFY WotC. Let us know what you think of our changes!
Plus what? I don't know about other editions, but in 5e, modifier = (score/2, rounded down) - 5. Add your proficiency bonus ((level/4, rounded up) + 1) to things you're proficient with, which almost never includes damage.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Rogues are very powerful at lower levels. Wait until the melee guys get their extra attacks and the spellcasters get their hard-hitting spells and it will feel a lot more balanced.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Some comments:
1) You do not add proficiency bonus to damage.
A dex of 19 is +4 to hit and damage
At level 3 the proficiency bonus for attacking with a weapon you are proficient with is +2
This gives a rogue character with 19 dex a +6 to hit and a +4 to damage.
2) A level 3 rogue has sneak attack. This adds 2d6 to the damage IF the rogue qualifies for sneak attack. To gain sneak attack, they must have an enemy of the target within 5' of their target OR they have to have advantage on the attack roll. If the rogue doesn't have one of these then they do NOT get to roll extra damage for sneak attack.
A rogue that has sneak attack at level 3 with a short bow will have damage equal to 3d6+4
This is a bit more than most level 3 characters unless the other level 3s have a bonus action attack from a number of possible sources. Things even out at level 5 when the rogue gets another d6 but martial classes get extra attack.
However, if your rogue is adding +7 then they either have something magical or are doing something wrong.
-----------
On the topic of damage from other characters ...
A character with a great sword would do 2d6+str modifier. A character using a finesse weapon like a rapier with dexterity to hit would be d8+dex. A warlock character using a rapier and casting a hex spell might do d8+d6+str. A fighter using a spear/quarterstaff/glaive/halberd would have a main attack for weapon damage+str and a bonus action attack at d4+str. Rangers usually have an ability at level 3 that increases their damage like colossus slayer which lets the ranger do an extra d8 of damage once/turn if the target is already damaged. In this case the ranger if using a long bow or rapier would be doing 2d8+dex compared to the rogue's 3d6+dex (but the rogue needs to set up the conditions for sneak attack while the ranger only needs the target to be previously damaged).
If you think a character is doing far better than other characters the first place to look (especially if you are new to 5e) is to make sure you have the rules right. After that, check to see that the other characters are using their class abilities and then third wait a couple of levels to see if the issue goes away. For example, a level 2-4 moon druid can be very powerful compared to a comparable level fighter if they switch to a brown bear but this is strongly mitigated by level 5 when the fighter gets extra attack.
I started playing D&D with 1e and I have found that 5e has the best balance of any version so far though there are some things that will stand out as "how can that be balanced" the first time you run into them.
eg. First time the rogue gets a critical hit on a sneak attack - the number of dice rolled and damage can feel huge. Similarly, a paladin choosing to use a smite on critical hit (exactly when they should use them) ... again a lot of dice get rolled. Often, this can eliminate the creature they are fighting in one blow ... so make it part of the narrative, have fun and move on, these cool die rolls don't happen that often but depending on which versions you have played before it can feel a bit unbalanced the first time you run into them. My experience so far though is that they aren't unbalanced, just fun.
Like Matt said, with 19 Dex his ability modifier should be +4. Where and how is he getting +7?!
Proficiency at 3rd level is +2 and does not apply to damage.
Does he have a magic weapon already? Maybe a +1?
The only thing that looks off about this scenario to me is that +7 seems a little high. It seems like there might be a modifier being improperly applied in there somewhere that is adding extra.
That said, Rogues do a lot of damage if they are getting Sneak Attack.
Composite bows are not a thing anymore, nor should they be in 5e. Bows/Crossbows all add Dex modifier to damage (think more precisely shooting vital points).
The attack roll is calculated as [d20 + Dex mod + proficiency bonus + misc. modifiers]
The damage roll is calculated as [weapon damage die + Dex mod + misc. modifiers]
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Even if you're incorrectly adding the Rogue's proficiency bonus to the damage rolls, I don't know how you get +7.
At level 3 the following numbers should apply:
Rogue's Attack Bonus = 4(Dex mod) + 2(Proficiency Bonus)
Rogue's Shortbow Damage = 1d6 + 4(Dex mod), possibly +2d6 when Sneak Attack applies, averaging either 7.5 or 14.5.
Tank's Attack Bonus = Str mod + 2(Proficiency Bonus)
Tank's Damage = 1d12/2d6 + Str mod, averaging somewhere in the 11-12 range, maybe a smidge more with the Great Weapon Fighting style.
Yes, Rogues can do a lot of damage when Sneak Attack is in play(which it often will be if the party has a tank who likes being up close and personal with the enemy. But keep in mind that the tank's damage is per attack, of which they will get more as they level up. Your Rogue with the shortbow will always be firing just once per round, so if they miss they've got nothing. The tank(by which I'm guessing you mean either Fighter, Paladin or Barbarian) will be getting at least two attacks eventually, potentially doubling their damage output, and making them more consistent damage dealers overall since the extra attack rolls will make their turns less all-or-nothing. Plus, damage output isn't the sole measure of a character's effectiveness.
Thanks for the input. I'm still wrapping my head around the 5e rules and trying to flush the 2nd edition ruleset I played with down the toilet. I'll make sure that pesky halfing rogue gets straightened out.
Good luck with that, I still have nightmares involving THAC0 at times. 😂
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The +7 is added to the attack roll. The dex modifier for a 19dex is only 4 so a bow attack would be a d6+4. If he/she is able to do sneak attack damage then you add more d6’s to the damage roll.
What happened was he was combining his proficiency into damage. That combined with his overuse of sneak attack added up a shit ton. I nerfed down the sneak attack to some common sense stuff and reset him for the damage. Overall, easily resolved. Thanks for the help peeps.
Define 'nerfed down' sneak attack, please. It works just fine as written.
Yeah, it sounds like the only thing wrong was the dex modifier?
Rogues probably should be outdamaging tanks. They fill the "glass cannon" role. They should probably do the most single-target damage of anyone in your party, but probably can't take a hit.
Sneak attack should not be nerfed normally. It has a set of parameters in which it works just fine. Also yes. Punch the rogue a few times and watch im bleed 😀