There is a rule that states something to the effect that if multiple things happen to a player at the same time they get to decide what order they happen in, but perhaps only if they were the source of those things.
Like for example say two or more things triggered at the beginning of your turn, or at the end of your turn, then you would decide what order they happened in.
Does that sound familiar to anyone else? I'm skimming through the PHB and DMG but I can't find it anywhere.
Simultaneous Effects: Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
Yes, thank you! Ok, the reason I was looking for this rule is I'm wondering if the following scenario could work.
If there are 2 enemies to the North and 2 enemies to the East, can I use both of these features at the same time? A multiclass with 1 level in Death domain for the Reaper feature and 3 levels in Sorcerer for the meta-magic feature Twinning spell.
Can I first use the Twinning spell feature to twin a cantrip like Toll the Dead, having it hit 1 of the Northern targets and 1 of the Eastern targets, and then have the Reaper feature allow me to hit another creature within 5 feet of those 2 targets, thus hitting all 4 targets?
Not sure if I explained that right but hopefully you get the gist of what I mean.
Yes, thank you! Ok, the reason I was looking for this rule is I'm wondering if the following scenario could work.
If there are 2 enemies to the North and 2 enemies to the East, can I use both of these features at the same time? A multiclass with 1 level in Death domain for the Reaper feature and 3 levels in Sorcerer for the meta-magic feature Twinning spell.
Can I first use the Twinning spell feature to twin a cantrip like Toll the Dead, having it hit 1 of the Northern targets and 1 of the Eastern targets, and then have the Reaper feature allow me to hit another creature within 5 feet of those 2 targets, thus hitting all 4 targets?
Not sure if I explained that right but hopefully you get the gist of what I mean.
No. Twinned Spell requires that the spell be incapable of targeting more than one creature. Once you have the Reaper feature, all Necromancy cantrips become permanently ineligible for Twinned Spell.
Actually they don't... both the Twinning and Reaper features say 'when you cast a spell.' Since this means the Simultaneous Effects rule let's me decide which feature takes effect first I can choose to have the Twinning feature take effect before the Reaper feature takes effect.
The necrotic cantrips from the Reaper feature don't automatically target 2 targets within 5 feet, they only do so when you cast them.
And because it says 'normally' targets only one creature, toll the dead applies even after it's twinned, because twinning it does something to the targeting of the spell that isn't normal.
Well then, I have been... I mean the rules have been corrected.
Was Xanathar's even released at this point? It's the book that has the Simultaneous Effects rule:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
The Twinned Spell rules are in the PHB.:
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
And the Death Domain Cleric first appeared in the DMG? The Reaper feature rules:
Reaper
At 1st level, the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Since both the Twinned Spell and Reaper features both say 'when you cast a spell' and 'when the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip' respectively, they each trigger simultaneously and you the player get to decide which takes precedence over the other, as per the Simultaneous Effects rule quoted above.
The Simultaneous Effects rule wasn't even published when Crawford made the original ruling.
Maybe he would stick to his guns and find a way to explain why this doesn't work since it does seem a little exploitive and 'power gamey' trying to get a cantrip to hit 4 targets. I think there are other reasons why this doesn't work.
Actually they don't... both the Twinning and Reaper features say 'when you cast a spell.' Since this means the Simultaneous Effects rule let's me decide which feature takes effect first I can choose to have the Twinning feature take effect before the Reaper feature takes effect.
The necrotic cantrips from the Reaper feature don't automatically target 2 targets within 5 feet, they only do so when you cast them.
And because it says 'normally' targets only one creature, toll the dead applies even after it's twinned, because twinning it does something to the targeting of the spell that isn't normal.
None of that is relevant. What's relevant is this line from Twinned Spell: "To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level." Once you have Reaper, all necromancy cantrips become capable of targeting more than one creature. That's all there is to it.
There are other reasons this wouldn't work. If you're doing Twinned Spell before Reaper, then Reaper wouldn't work as you expect. It says that the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other. It does not say the number of creatures you can target doubles, it says that you can replace the number of creatures it targets with two. Replacing two with two is still two.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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I'm not talking about whether or not the spell is eligible for Reaper. It seems to me that it actually is. I'm talking about the effects of actually using Reaper, which say that you target two creatures. You're trying to use Reaper to target more than two creatures, which means you're using it wrong.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The necromancy cantrips are not capable of targeting more than one creature until they are cast.
When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip
No, they’re not capable of targeting more than one creature until the cleric gains the Reaper feature, because the Reaper feature grants all necromancy cantrips the capability. Targeting always happens after you start casting the spell.
Exactly, the cantrips don't inherently gain the ability to target a 2nd target, they only gain this ability once you cast the cantrip.
When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Before you cast the spell it cannot target more than 1 target, it gains the ability to target more than 1 target when you cast it.
Exactly, the cantrips don't inherently gain the ability to target a 2nd target, they only gain this ability once you cast the cantrip.
When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Before you cast the spell it cannot target more than 1 target, it gains the ability to target more than 1 target when you cast it.
That is neither how the English language nor the rules work.
Something that's similar to what you are trying to do that should work is to twin the Ice Knife spell to damage two groups of two creatures. There has been Sage Advice rulings that rule against that combo as well, but in terms of RAW Twin with Ice Knife should work.
Can I first use the Twinning spell feature to twin a cantrip like Toll the Dead, having it hit 1 of the Northern targets and 1 of the Eastern targets, and then have the Reaper feature allow me to hit another creature within 5 feet of those 2 targets, thus hitting all 4 targets?
Casting Toll of the Dead as a Twinned Spell while targeting two creatures makes it ineligible for Reaper feature since it's no longer a cantrip that targets only one creature.
Casting Toll of the Dead while targeting two creatures with the Reaper feature would be ineligible for Twinned Spell since it's no longer casting a spell that targets only one creature.
Huh? I'm confused. Are you saying that the Reaper feature does something other than it says, or to ignore the part about casting the spell?
Can you clarify please?
This same exact argument could be used for any spell. You never select targets until you cast a spell.
I would rule that a Death Cleric can Twin any single target Necromancy spell as long as neither target is within 5 ft. of another target. Because at that point, those spells are incapable or targeting more than one.
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Does anyone know where to find this rule?
There is a rule that states something to the effect that if multiple things happen to a player at the same time they get to decide what order they happen in, but perhaps only if they were the source of those things.
Like for example say two or more things triggered at the beginning of your turn, or at the end of your turn, then you would decide what order they happened in.
Does that sound familiar to anyone else? I'm skimming through the PHB and DMG but I can't find it anywhere.
Can anyone point me in the right direction.
Xanathar’s Guide to Everything, first section of chapter 2.
It sounds like you are thinking of the Simultaneous Effects rule in Xanathar's: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/xgte/dungeon-masters-tools#SimultaneousEffects
Here's the optional rule you're looking for;
Yes, thank you! Ok, the reason I was looking for this rule is I'm wondering if the following scenario could work.
If there are 2 enemies to the North and 2 enemies to the East, can I use both of these features at the same time? A multiclass with 1 level in Death domain for the Reaper feature and 3 levels in Sorcerer for the meta-magic feature Twinning spell.
Can I first use the Twinning spell feature to twin a cantrip like Toll the Dead, having it hit 1 of the Northern targets and 1 of the Eastern targets, and then have the Reaper feature allow me to hit another creature within 5 feet of those 2 targets, thus hitting all 4 targets?
Not sure if I explained that right but hopefully you get the gist of what I mean.
No. Twinned Spell requires that the spell be incapable of targeting more than one creature. Once you have the Reaper feature, all Necromancy cantrips become permanently ineligible for Twinned Spell.
Actually they don't... both the Twinning and Reaper features say 'when you cast a spell.' Since this means the Simultaneous Effects rule let's me decide which feature takes effect first I can choose to have the Twinning feature take effect before the Reaper feature takes effect.
The necrotic cantrips from the Reaper feature don't automatically target 2 targets within 5 feet, they only do so when you cast them.
And because it says 'normally' targets only one creature, toll the dead applies even after it's twinned, because twinning it does something to the targeting of the spell that isn't normal.
Toll the Dead 'normally' only targets one creature.
Mr Crawford would disagree with you:
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/688437051721580544
Well then, I have been... I mean the rules have been corrected.
Was Xanathar's even released at this point? It's the book that has the Simultaneous Effects rule:
Simultaneous Effects
Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
The Twinned Spell rules are in the PHB.:
Twinned Spell
When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip).
To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level. For example, magic missile and scorching ray aren’t eligible, but ray of frost and chromatic orb are.
And the Death Domain Cleric first appeared in the DMG? The Reaper feature rules:
Reaper
At 1st level, the cleric learns one necromancy cantrip of his or her choice from any spell list. When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Since both the Twinned Spell and Reaper features both say 'when you cast a spell' and 'when the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip' respectively, they each trigger simultaneously and you the player get to decide which takes precedence over the other, as per the Simultaneous Effects rule quoted above.
The Simultaneous Effects rule wasn't even published when Crawford made the original ruling.
Maybe he would stick to his guns and find a way to explain why this doesn't work since it does seem a little exploitive and 'power gamey' trying to get a cantrip to hit 4 targets. I think there are other reasons why this doesn't work.
None of that is relevant. What's relevant is this line from Twinned Spell: "To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level." Once you have Reaper, all necromancy cantrips become capable of targeting more than one creature. That's all there is to it.
There are other reasons this wouldn't work. If you're doing Twinned Spell before Reaper, then Reaper wouldn't work as you expect. It says that the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other. It does not say the number of creatures you can target doubles, it says that you can replace the number of creatures it targets with two. Replacing two with two is still two.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The necromancy cantrips are not capable of targeting more than one creature until they are cast.
When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip
I'm not talking about whether or not the spell is eligible for Reaper. It seems to me that it actually is. I'm talking about the effects of actually using Reaper, which say that you target two creatures. You're trying to use Reaper to target more than two creatures, which means you're using it wrong.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No, they’re not capable of targeting more than one creature until the cleric gains the Reaper feature, because the Reaper feature grants all necromancy cantrips the capability. Targeting always happens after you start casting the spell.
Exactly, the cantrips don't inherently gain the ability to target a 2nd target, they only gain this ability once you cast the cantrip.
When the cleric casts a necromancy cantrip that normally targets only one creature, the spell can instead target two creatures within range and within 5 feet of each other.
Before you cast the spell it cannot target more than 1 target, it gains the ability to target more than 1 target when you cast it.
That is neither how the English language nor the rules work.
Huh? I'm confused. Are you saying that the Reaper feature does something other than it says, or to ignore the part about casting the spell?
Can you clarify please?
Yeah, it looks like this combo doesn't work.
Something that's similar to what you are trying to do that should work is to twin the Ice Knife spell to damage two groups of two creatures. There has been Sage Advice rulings that rule against that combo as well, but in terms of RAW Twin with Ice Knife should work.
Casting Toll of the Dead as a Twinned Spell while targeting two creatures makes it ineligible for Reaper feature since it's no longer a cantrip that targets only one creature.
Casting Toll of the Dead while targeting two creatures with the Reaper feature would be ineligible for Twinned Spell since it's no longer casting a spell that targets only one creature.
This same exact argument could be used for any spell. You never select targets until you cast a spell.
I would rule that a Death Cleric can Twin any single target Necromancy spell as long as neither target is within 5 ft. of another target. Because at that point, those spells are incapable or targeting more than one.