So in my last session, one of my players (whose playing a Thief) came across a Staff of Power, but there was some confusion on what he could and couldn't do with it. So I'm posting our questions here.
If the Thief wields the staff in his off-hand, does he still gain the +2 to his defensive stats (AC & saving throws)?
Can his Thief uses his racial spell-casting (as a Tiefling, he has CHA) to cast the spells from the staff?
How does Fast Hands interact with the "Spells" and "Retribution Strike" features of the staff? Obviously "Power Strike" doesn't work, since it requires an Attack action.
the Staff of Power has an attunement requirement of, "requires attunement by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard" so the character is unable to use it as anything other than a regular quarterstaff ..... unless they happen to be 13th level or higher Thief (which I guess they might be) with the "Use Magic Device" feature.
In this case, they can use the full powers of the staff.
Magical staffs (staves) are wielded as a quarterstaff, which is a one-handed (versatile) weapon. It can't be wielded in the off-hand unless the character has an ability to allow them to use such a weapon - two-weapon fighting requires light weapons for dual wielding. The Dual Wielder feat would allow this. Assuming that the character IS able to wield the weapon in their off-hand, yes, they gain the bonus to defensive stats.
No, the racial casting does not allow the character to cast the spells from the staff. Casting the spells from the staff only requires that the character is attuned to the staff - see above.
Fast Hands doesn't allow characters to use a bonus action to activate magic items that require an action. The "use an object" action isn't used for magic items (reference).
I would rule that he needs at least one level in either sorcerer, warlock, or wizard and be attuned to the staff to use it. Once that's accomplished:
1) As long as he was carrying the staff in a hand, he would benefit from the defensive abilities.
2) The spellcasting ability would have to be the ability that corresponds to their class, either intelligence for wizard or charisma for sorcerer or warlock.
3) I might allow fast hands to interact with the retribution strike, but the spells would have to follow the normal rules of casting with the staff.
That's how I would rule it, but I could see making an exception for the defensive stats if you don't have an arcane caster in the party. Otherwise, I would highly consider swapping the staff for a more appropriate item of equal or lesser rarity (possibly two lower items giving a similar power level- just match the abilities the best you can).
Agree with the above (from Stormknight) except for point 1. There is nothing in the rules regarding two weapons to prevent anyone from *wielding* two weapons without the light property, the rules only kick in when you try to attack with a bonus action. A character could carry a staff and a longsword, and choose which to attack with on each turn - but they would not get the bonus action attack. Someone with an Extra Attack feature could even use their Attack Action to attack once with each weapon (still no bonus action attack without the relevant feat). There is no such thing as an off-hand or primary hand in these rules; just a hand and another hand.
So yes, the thief would get the defensive bonus from holding the staff, even when attacking with a weapon like a rapier in their other hand.
I would rule that he needs at least one level in either sorcerer, warlock, or wizard and be attuned to the staff to use it. Once that's accomplished:
1) As long as he was carrying the staff in a hand, he would benefit from the defensive abilities.
2) The spellcasting ability would have to be the ability that corresponds to their class, either intelligence for wizard or charisma for sorcerer or warlock.
3) I might allow fast hands to interact with the retribution strike, but the spells would have to follow the normal rules of casting with the staff.
That's how I would rule it, but I could see making an exception for the defensive stats if you don't have an arcane caster in the party. Otherwise, I would highly consider swapping the staff for a more appropriate item of equal or lesser rarity (possibly two lower items giving a similar power level- just match the abilities the best you can).
You would rule that way even with the thief's use magical device feature?
Admittedly, I'm not familiar with rogue and the OP didn't mention it, only fast hands. After reviewing, I'd allow the thief to use the device but probably have some kind of DC such as 10+ level of the spell to imitate actual spellcasters that could use it otherwise nothing happens (including no charge wasted). After enough successful attempts, I'd rule that they've got that spell down well enough to not need the check any more. I'd be ok with charisma as the spellcaster ability (because of the Tiefling's natural ability) and probably the check would be a performance charisma check.
The defensive abilities would be in place and the fast hands interactions would remain the same.
Edited to flesh out the messed up thought regarding the device usage check and clarify why charisma for the spellcasting ability.
Okay, I think I got answers for questions 1 & 3, but I think you guys didn't completely understand 2.
Since my player has a Tiefling as a Thief, he has a racial spellcasting ability of Charisma. Since the staff says "using your spell save DC" for casting spells and the Thief doesn't have a spellcasting ability modifer (since its not a spellcasting class), is it possible for the Thief to use his Charisma as his spellcasting ability modifer to generate the spell save DC?
I did actually address it when I mentioned the usage of charisma as the spellcaster ability, but I just noticed that that sentence is a little messed up because of two thoughts being shoved together while still being incomplete. I didn't specify the reason why, but it was because of the Tiefling's natural magical ability.
I've gone back and edited both of those now in post #6.
A. RAW Charisma is appropriate because that is the spellcasting ability of this specific character.
But imagining a Thief without the ability to cast spells:
B. If you think that a level 13+ Thief should be as capable as a level 13+ spell caster at using magic items, Dexterity would be an appropriate spell casting ability.
C. Since Arcane Tricksters (albeit a different archetype) use Intelligence as their spell casting ability you may find it appropriate.
D. Rule that they have no spell casting ability, therefore the spell attack bonus is 0 (no spellcasting ability modifier) + proficiency bonus and the spell save DC is 8 + 0 (no spellcasting ability modifier) + proficiency bonus.
I would disagree with dexterity being a good spellcasting ability for one reason: spellcasting (at least in 5e with which I'm familiar) uses one of the mental abilities and not one of the physical abilities. Even bards that have a spellcasting style that could be thematically tied to dexterity was tied to charisma. That being said, no one is stopping the OP from ruling in favor of that besides the OP.
I did think that you gave some great options though.
Acme, I think your A and D sound right. Since the Thief is a Tiefling, he can use CHA. If he wasn't, his spell save DC would be 8 + prof + ability mod (which is non-existent, and therefore 0).
Just so everyone's clear, these were the answers I'm running with for my original questions.
He still gets the bonus, as there is nothing preventing him from holding it in his off-hand. He just can't use it for a bonus action attack.
He can use CHA as a ability mod for the staff spells since he's a Tiefling. If he wasn't a Tiefling though, his spell ability mod would be 0, since Thief's don't have a spell ability mod.
He can't use Fast Hands to use the "Spells" and "Retribution Strike" features of the staff.
don't know if this has been fully addressed or not but this is from the DMG Ch 7: Magic Items; activating an item
A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.
Ex. I made a character starting with Ranger and multi classed into Thief Rogue so my spell casting for anything tied to Thief is WIS. If i had not multi classed it would be INT. if I chose a race with Innate spell casting I would use that modifier which I believe is Charisma in most cases but Firbolg, and Githzerai uses WIS and Githyanki use INT
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Hi guys,
So in my last session, one of my players (whose playing a Thief) came across a Staff of Power, but there was some confusion on what he could and couldn't do with it. So I'm posting our questions here.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
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the Staff of Power has an attunement requirement of, "requires attunement by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard" so the character is unable to use it as anything other than a regular quarterstaff ..... unless they happen to be 13th level or higher Thief (which I guess they might be) with the "Use Magic Device" feature.
In this case, they can use the full powers of the staff.
Hope that helps!
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I would rule that he needs at least one level in either sorcerer, warlock, or wizard and be attuned to the staff to use it. Once that's accomplished:
1) As long as he was carrying the staff in a hand, he would benefit from the defensive abilities.
2) The spellcasting ability would have to be the ability that corresponds to their class, either intelligence for wizard or charisma for sorcerer or warlock.
3) I might allow fast hands to interact with the retribution strike, but the spells would have to follow the normal rules of casting with the staff.
That's how I would rule it, but I could see making an exception for the defensive stats if you don't have an arcane caster in the party. Otherwise, I would highly consider swapping the staff for a more appropriate item of equal or lesser rarity (possibly two lower items giving a similar power level- just match the abilities the best you can).
Agree with the above (from Stormknight) except for point 1. There is nothing in the rules regarding two weapons to prevent anyone from *wielding* two weapons without the light property, the rules only kick in when you try to attack with a bonus action. A character could carry a staff and a longsword, and choose which to attack with on each turn - but they would not get the bonus action attack. Someone with an Extra Attack feature could even use their Attack Action to attack once with each weapon (still no bonus action attack without the relevant feat). There is no such thing as an off-hand or primary hand in these rules; just a hand and another hand.
So yes, the thief would get the defensive bonus from holding the staff, even when attacking with a weapon like a rapier in their other hand.
You would rule that way even with the thief's use magical device feature?
Admittedly, I'm not familiar with rogue and the OP didn't mention it, only fast hands. After reviewing, I'd allow the thief to use the device but probably have some kind of DC such as 10+ level of the spell to imitate actual spellcasters that could use it otherwise nothing happens (including no charge wasted). After enough successful attempts, I'd rule that they've got that spell down well enough to not need the check any more. I'd be ok with charisma as the spellcaster ability (because of the Tiefling's natural ability) and probably the check would be a performance charisma check.
The defensive abilities would be in place and the fast hands interactions would remain the same.
Edited to flesh out the messed up thought regarding the device usage check and clarify why charisma for the spellcasting ability.
Okay, I think I got answers for questions 1 & 3, but I think you guys didn't completely understand 2.
Since my player has a Tiefling as a Thief, he has a racial spellcasting ability of Charisma. Since the staff says "using your spell save DC" for casting spells and the Thief doesn't have a spellcasting ability modifer (since its not a spellcasting class), is it possible for the Thief to use his Charisma as his spellcasting ability modifer to generate the spell save DC?
I did actually address it when I mentioned the usage of charisma as the spellcaster ability, but I just noticed that that sentence is a little messed up because of two thoughts being shoved together while still being incomplete. I didn't specify the reason why, but it was because of the Tiefling's natural magical ability.
I've gone back and edited both of those now in post #6.
As to #2:
A. RAW Charisma is appropriate because that is the spellcasting ability of this specific character.
But imagining a Thief without the ability to cast spells:
B. If you think that a level 13+ Thief should be as capable as a level 13+ spell caster at using magic items, Dexterity would be an appropriate spell casting ability.
C. Since Arcane Tricksters (albeit a different archetype) use Intelligence as their spell casting ability you may find it appropriate.
D. Rule that they have no spell casting ability, therefore the spell attack bonus is 0 (no spellcasting ability modifier) + proficiency bonus and the spell save DC is 8 + 0 (no spellcasting ability modifier) + proficiency bonus.
Edit: punctuation
Edit: D.
I would disagree with dexterity being a good spellcasting ability for one reason: spellcasting (at least in 5e with which I'm familiar) uses one of the mental abilities and not one of the physical abilities. Even bards that have a spellcasting style that could be thematically tied to dexterity was tied to charisma. That being said, no one is stopping the OP from ruling in favor of that besides the OP.
I did think that you gave some great options though.
Acme, I think your A and D sound right. Since the Thief is a Tiefling, he can use CHA. If he wasn't, his spell save DC would be 8 + prof + ability mod (which is non-existent, and therefore 0).
Just so everyone's clear, these were the answers I'm running with for my original questions.
Thanks everyone for your help.
don't know if this has been fully addressed or not but this is from the DMG Ch 7: Magic Items; activating an item
A magic item, such as certain staffs, may require you to use your own spellcasting ability when you cast a spell from the item. If you have more than one spellcasting ability, you choose which one to use with the item. If you don't have a spellcasting ability - perhaps you're a rogue with the Use Magic Device feature - your spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and your proficiency bonus does apply.
Ex. I made a character starting with Ranger and multi classed into Thief Rogue so my spell casting for anything tied to Thief is WIS. If i had not multi classed it would be INT. if I chose a race with Innate spell casting I would use that modifier which I believe is Charisma in most cases but Firbolg, and Githzerai uses WIS and Githyanki use INT