Hi GM here, one of my players wants to make a bard character that is part necromancer. He doesn't want to raise dead for his shows but rather turn fans, who truly love him, into zombies so that they can "live for ever" or something. (Using finger of death)
He is under the impression that of a person willing becomes a zombie they will not forget their past selves and retain all memory. And remain self aware.
By RAW, is this possible? I don't think so and it also sounds evil.
It’s definitely evil. The description for zombies states: “A zombie retains no vestiges of its former self, its mind devoid of thought and imagination.” As DM, though, you can do whatever you want if it serves your story. Just remember that zombies have an intelligence score of 3.
Lets be clear, this guy is asking you to house rule.
The question is how much do YOU want to house rule.
You could decide not to at all. Have him roll arcana and religion checks and have NPCs inform him that zombies do not work that way. Then leave it up to him if he will do it anyway.
You could decide that he THINKS it works that way. Maybe you rolled an arcana check and he failed it.
You could decide that some of what he thinks is possible, but not all. Enough that what he wants is still Evil but it is possible.
Or you say screw it and house rule that everythign he desires is possible - but no one else believes him. Which makes him not be evil, but everyone else thinks he is.
To me it would depend on how he was planning to use them. If it was purely a flavor thing where the zombie would sway or do a thriller dance when he started playing his music, I’d go for it. But if he wants some kind of mechanical benefit from it, like having intelligent, immortal servants, then no. There are more powerful undead that do retain memories, so letting a zombie do so would make them more powerful than the rules intend for them be.
Either way, maintaining control over more than a couple gets rather difficult/ is a big investment of spell slots.
What you may want is the Undying from Eberron: Rising From The Last War (Pg310).
Definitely homebrew to let your Bard create them, but the first line in their description, "The undying are undead creatures sustained by positive energy or the devotion of mortal beings." Seems right up the alley of a high level necromancy bard. Undying typically serve as councilors and soldiers, but a near immortal dance troupe seems as reasonable as anything else.
What you may want is the Undying from Eberron: Rising From The Last War (Pg310).
Definitely homebrew to let your Bard create them, but the first line in their description, "The undying are undead creatures sustained by positive energy or the devotion of mortal beings." seems right up the ally of a high level necromancy bard. Undying typically serve as councilors and soldiers, but a near immortal dance troupe seems as reasonable as anything else.
The Undying aren’t zombies, and they’re sustained by the faith and devotion of an entire culture. It’s not something one individual can replicate.
You’ve also got either the Undying or OP backwards. OP’s zombies are devoted to the necromancer. It’s two million elves who are devoted to the Undying, which keeps them around.
It’s just not a comparable situation to what OP is taking about, and it’s not a good model if OP wants to make up some stuff to let their player do this.
The Undying aren’t zombies, and they’re sustained by the faith and devotion of an entire culture. It’s not something one individual can replicate.
You’ve also got either the Undying or OP backwards. OP’s zombies are devoted to the necromancer. It’s two million elves who are devoted to the Undying, which keeps them around.
It’s just not a comparable situation to what OP is taking about, and it’s not a good model if OP wants to make up some stuff to let their player do this.
The question of RAW for Finger of Death was already resolved. I'm fully aware that the Undying aren't zombies, and that a single individual doesn't have a straightforward means to create them. I stated as much in my post.
However, positive energy undead are an established thematic alternative to evil undead that is perfectly acceptable for homebrew, whether or not it takes the specific form from the source books.
The description of Undying includes the following, "If any Undying elf leaves Aerenal, they require a community of elves or another source of positive energy to sustain them." It isn't the worship of the community that keeps them alive, it is the positive energy that suffuses their land. They simply developed rituals to tap into that energy (akin to negative energy necromancy). A community of worshippers or an alternative source of positive energy are options for those who leave, for whatever reason.
There is no published "Worship <--> Divine Magic" exchange rate, so it may very well be in the realm of possibility for a 14th level caster who already has access to powerful spells like Simulacrum. If you prefer an alternative, then using True Polymorph or Wish can transform a follower into a permanent equivalent of Undying.
The joy of Homebrew is that it is not bound by the ruleset of any given book. It's simply a matter of managing game balance, and fitting it into the lore of your world.
If the OP wants to allow his Bard to do something along these lines, then the Undying are a good template to consider.
To me it would depend on how he was planning to use them. If it was purely a flavor thing where the zombie would sway or do a thriller dance when he started playing his music, I’d go for it. But if he wants some kind of mechanical benefit from it, like having intelligent, immortal servants, then no. There are more powerful undead that do retain memories, so letting a zombie do so would make them more powerful than the rules intend for them be.
Either way, maintaining control over more than a couple gets rather difficult/ is a big investment of spell slots.
Just wanted to clarify, that he is wanting to use the finger of death spell to zombify his fans. Finger of death makes the zombies permanently under your control. It is a 7th level spell.
I am not sure why he wants to do it, except to immortalize them. He also said that he would only do it to those who want to become undead.
I think he got this idea from the gray necromancer story.
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Hi GM here, one of my players wants to make a bard character that is part necromancer. He doesn't want to raise dead for his shows but rather turn fans, who truly love him, into zombies so that they can "live for ever" or something. (Using finger of death)
He is under the impression that of a person willing becomes a zombie they will not forget their past selves and retain all memory. And remain self aware.
By RAW, is this possible? I don't think so and it also sounds evil.
It’s definitely evil. The description for zombies states: “A zombie retains no vestiges of its former self, its mind devoid of thought and imagination.” As DM, though, you can do whatever you want if it serves your story. Just remember that zombies have an intelligence score of 3.
Lets be clear, this guy is asking you to house rule.
The question is how much do YOU want to house rule.
You could decide not to at all. Have him roll arcana and religion checks and have NPCs inform him that zombies do not work that way. Then leave it up to him if he will do it anyway.
You could decide that he THINKS it works that way. Maybe you rolled an arcana check and he failed it.
You could decide that some of what he thinks is possible, but not all. Enough that what he wants is still Evil but it is possible.
Or you say screw it and house rule that everythign he desires is possible - but no one else believes him. Which makes him not be evil, but everyone else thinks he is.
If it is your own homebrew setting, it is up to you. Per the forgotten realms setting, the zombies would be mindless and innately evil.
To me it would depend on how he was planning to use them. If it was purely a flavor thing where the zombie would sway or do a thriller dance when he started playing his music, I’d go for it. But if he wants some kind of mechanical benefit from it, like having intelligent, immortal servants, then no. There are more powerful undead that do retain memories, so letting a zombie do so would make them more powerful than the rules intend for them be.
Either way, maintaining control over more than a couple gets rather difficult/ is a big investment of spell slots.
What you may want is the Undying from Eberron: Rising From The Last War (Pg310).
Definitely homebrew to let your Bard create them, but the first line in their description, "The undying are undead creatures sustained by positive energy or the devotion of mortal beings." Seems right up the alley of a high level necromancy bard. Undying typically serve as councilors and soldiers, but a near immortal dance troupe seems as reasonable as anything else.
The Undying aren’t zombies, and they’re sustained by the faith and devotion of an entire culture. It’s not something one individual can replicate.
You’ve also got either the Undying or OP backwards. OP’s zombies are devoted to the necromancer. It’s two million elves who are devoted to the Undying, which keeps them around.
It’s just not a comparable situation to what OP is taking about, and it’s not a good model if OP wants to make up some stuff to let their player do this.
The question of RAW for Finger of Death was already resolved. I'm fully aware that the Undying aren't zombies, and that a single individual doesn't have a straightforward means to create them. I stated as much in my post.
However, positive energy undead are an established thematic alternative to evil undead that is perfectly acceptable for homebrew, whether or not it takes the specific form from the source books.
The description of Undying includes the following, "If any Undying elf leaves Aerenal, they require a community of elves or another source of positive energy to sustain them." It isn't the worship of the community that keeps them alive, it is the positive energy that suffuses their land. They simply developed rituals to tap into that energy (akin to negative energy necromancy). A community of worshippers or an alternative source of positive energy are options for those who leave, for whatever reason.
There is no published "Worship <--> Divine Magic" exchange rate, so it may very well be in the realm of possibility for a 14th level caster who already has access to powerful spells like Simulacrum. If you prefer an alternative, then using True Polymorph or Wish can transform a follower into a permanent equivalent of Undying.
The joy of Homebrew is that it is not bound by the ruleset of any given book. It's simply a matter of managing game balance, and fitting it into the lore of your world.
If the OP wants to allow his Bard to do something along these lines, then the Undying are a good template to consider.
Just wanted to clarify, that he is wanting to use the finger of death spell to zombify his fans. Finger of death makes the zombies permanently under your control. It is a 7th level spell.
I am not sure why he wants to do it, except to immortalize them. He also said that he would only do it to those who want to become undead.
I think he got this idea from the gray necromancer story.