Currently playing a Lore Bard in a campaign that we plan on playing all the way to level 20 and having a short "final arc" if you will with a few sessions at level 20. Character is currently a level 8 lore bard concentrating on control and support during battle and manipulation in both social and non-social encounters. As I'm completely underwhelmed by the Bard capstone ability, I plan on taking a 2-level dip into Sorcerer (Aberrant Mind) and I also took Metamagic Adept Feat at level 8 for some Metamagic, for Subtle and Carefull spell all to play into the whole "mind mage"/manipulation/control aspect of the character. Depending on how the game goes and plays out, I may even give up level 18 magical secrets for a 3rd level of Sorcerer (since that's comes at character level 20 vs 18 like straight bards) and I'm not sure I want Wish (well...I WANT Wish, but also hate just following the trend).
My struggle is trying to decide exactly when to take the plunge into those sorcerer levels. Taking levels 9 and 10 as Sorc gets me more spells overall to fill out my arsenal with as well as 2 more Sorc points and the ability to convert spots/points as wanted. With the bonus spells as Sorc overlapping with some of my favorite Bard spells, it also lets me swap those out for other options. However, getting to 10 Bard before taking the Sorc dip gets me 2 more Expertise, 5th level spells, and 10th level Magical Secret options sooner.
I guess it's a matter of choosing between giving myself more options NOW (level 1 Sorc) or pushing and not delaying level 10 Bard. Which would you choose?
If tyou ar edefinately taking sorcerer either at 9&10 or 11&12 you will be in the same place at level 12 anyway. You hacve summed up the differences well, how often do you really wish you had more uses of metamagic? (Subtle spell particularly depends on the campaign and DM). What 5th level spells would you take and and what would you get out of them?
Something ot consider is Greater Restoration. You really want someone in the party to have this when you hit level 9 it can undo a whole load of debiltating effects, if there is a cleric or druid in the party then they will normally take it (there is a case for you having it as well in case the cleric gets petrified but that is very situational) if the party doesn't have either of a cleric or a druid I would strongly suggest you stick with bard to get it..
Lore Bards double down on the fact that Bards get reduced benefit from multiclassing due to already being able to steal any spells they want from other spell lists. If it's too late and you're already a Lore Bard 8, waiting on Bard 10 won't accomplish anything meaningful. I'd dip now.
I agree... the main reason to wait until 10 in this situation is for Magical Secrets. The Expertises are nice, but you've already got 2, and that's two more than most classes get. Especially since you're only planning on a two-level dip into Sorcerer. Your Metamagic Adept feat will become vastly more useful when you gain the ability to convert Spell Slots into Sorcery Points.
I'd say just jump in head first or you'll always feel tempted to just keep delaying
Since it's only my opinion and you're welcome to consider it or dismiss it as you see fit, I'll offer how I would go, if doing a Bard/Sorc multiclass.
I'd go Sorc from 9-12, meaning you will be losing access to Wish and the 9th level spell (a 3 level dip still gets you one 9th level Bard spell) I would do it for the extra Sorcery points and metamagic options, which IMO is the only reason to dip Sorc from anything else. It's a really handy feature to be able to spin on your Bard spells, and depending on what you took for Magical Secrets at 6, can be a BIG help. I have a Bard/Sorc I may be playing shortly in a mini-campaign our DM is running, He's level 16, and has 12 Bard 4 Sorc (and Metamagic Adept Feat) giving me 6 Sorc points to play with. I took Haste as one of my Magical Secrets so I can twin it on 2 of my melee buddies when I really want to boost their damage output and avoidance. Celestial Sorc allowed me o grab Shield of Faith as well, another one I can twin to buff just their AC. The versatility of the Metamagic on a myriad of spells I can cast makes for a very interesting character with a lot more firepower and utility than one might expect.
So I guess you can pick your poison, 3 level dip and get the 9th level Bard spell when you hit 20, or 4 level dip for more Sorc points to work with. Or a 2 level dip for a bit less benefit than the Feat, at the cost of base class levels. Personally I scrapped the idea of getting Wish in lieu of getting more Sorc points and more things I could do with them.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Level 2 doesn't give a lot, other than 2 points that grants you one additional level 1 spell slot once/day.
Level 3 is when you gain metamagic talents on which to spend those points.
Thew OP said thay have taken metamagic adept so 2 levels of sorcerer allows them to use those extra 2 sorcery points on the metamagic talents they got from the feat (subtle and careful).The sorcerer dip also gives them 4 more cantrips and 2 more 1st level spells known
A third level of sorcer gives them 1 extra sorcery point and the ability to choose 2 more talents, a decent option but if they expect to use most of their sorcery points on subtle and careful spell it isn't the no brainer you suggest.
Yes. that metamagic adept feat is really good for low level sorcerors. Similarly the Eldritch Adept is good low level Warlocks.
Back to the main issue, the real comparison is which is better Bard 6/Sorc 2 or Bard 8. Bard Sorcer gives you only the 4th level spell slot, and so does sorceror. Yes, you can only use it to upcast bard or sorc spells, but that means you are giving up less. Bard 8th gives you just the ASI.
All in all, I think the Sorcerer abilities you get for 2 levels of Sorcerer MORE than make up for what you get as a Bard. I would take 2 levels of Sorcerer before I went to Bard 8.
There is even some argument to start Sorc after Bard 3, but I can see why you would wait till Bard 6.
Thanks for all the feedback. I already went 8 levels of bard to get 2 ASI/feats options ASAP. With taking Actor at lvl4 to cap my CHA at 20 it really fit with the first act of the campaign that focused on politics and kingdom stuff, "Game of Thrones style".
Then I decided Metamagic Adept at 8th (decided to take that and delay Resilient Con until 3rd ASI).
Party has 8 members total (Zealot Barb, Shadow Monk, Scout Rogue, Cleric x2 (Life & Tempest), Bard x2 (Valor & Lore), Transmutation Wizard. So I am focusing on Control and manipulation. Took Counterspell and Pass without Trace at 6th level (Monk wasn't Shadow originally). If I go straight to 10 Bard now, I'll prolly take Synaptic Static at 9th and something like Bigby's and Find Greater Steed at 10.
But I do like the idea of getting the extra cantrips, absorb elements and shield spells, and to 4 sorc points + ability to convert more sooner rather than later. Gives me more options and Aberrant Mind bonus spells and abilities fits the "mind mage" and Charlatan character background.
I think that utility may be worth delaying level 10 Magical Secrets to char level 12.
And yeah, I haven't fully decided on 2 or 3 sorc levels total just yet; as that really comes down to Wish vs 2 more Meta magic (prolly Twinned and Extend). I'll definitely do at least 17 Bard though for at least one 9th level spell choice (Foresight).
Currently playing a Lore Bard in a campaign that we plan on playing all the way to level 20 and having a short "final arc" if you will with a few sessions at level 20. Character is currently a level 8 lore bard concentrating on control and support during battle and manipulation in both social and non-social encounters. As I'm completely underwhelmed by the Bard capstone ability, I plan on taking a 2-level dip into Sorcerer (Aberrant Mind) and I also took Metamagic Adept Feat at level 8 for some Metamagic, for Subtle and Carefull spell all to play into the whole "mind mage"/manipulation/control aspect of the character. Depending on how the game goes and plays out, I may even give up level 18 magical secrets for a 3rd level of Sorcerer (since that's comes at character level 20 vs 18 like straight bards) and I'm not sure I want Wish (well...I WANT Wish, but also hate just following the trend).
My struggle is trying to decide exactly when to take the plunge into those sorcerer levels. Taking levels 9 and 10 as Sorc gets me more spells overall to fill out my arsenal with as well as 2 more Sorc points and the ability to convert spots/points as wanted. With the bonus spells as Sorc overlapping with some of my favorite Bard spells, it also lets me swap those out for other options. However, getting to 10 Bard before taking the Sorc dip gets me 2 more Expertise, 5th level spells, and 10th level Magical Secret options sooner.
I guess it's a matter of choosing between giving myself more options NOW (level 1 Sorc) or pushing and not delaying level 10 Bard. Which would you choose?
If tyou ar edefinately taking sorcerer either at 9&10 or 11&12 you will be in the same place at level 12 anyway. You hacve summed up the differences well, how often do you really wish you had more uses of metamagic? (Subtle spell particularly depends on the campaign and DM). What 5th level spells would you take and and what would you get out of them?
Something ot consider is Greater Restoration. You really want someone in the party to have this when you hit level 9 it can undo a whole load of debiltating effects, if there is a cleric or druid in the party then they will normally take it (there is a case for you having it as well in case the cleric gets petrified but that is very situational) if the party doesn't have either of a cleric or a druid I would strongly suggest you stick with bard to get it..
Lore Bards double down on the fact that Bards get reduced benefit from multiclassing due to already being able to steal any spells they want from other spell lists. If it's too late and you're already a Lore Bard 8, waiting on Bard 10 won't accomplish anything meaningful. I'd dip now.
I agree... the main reason to wait until 10 in this situation is for Magical Secrets. The Expertises are nice, but you've already got 2, and that's two more than most classes get. Especially since you're only planning on a two-level dip into Sorcerer. Your Metamagic Adept feat will become vastly more useful when you gain the ability to convert Spell Slots into Sorcery Points.
I'd say just jump in head first or you'll always feel tempted to just keep delaying
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Since it's only my opinion and you're welcome to consider it or dismiss it as you see fit, I'll offer how I would go, if doing a Bard/Sorc multiclass.
I'd go Sorc from 9-12, meaning you will be losing access to Wish and the 9th level spell (a 3 level dip still gets you one 9th level Bard spell) I would do it for the extra Sorcery points and metamagic options, which IMO is the only reason to dip Sorc from anything else. It's a really handy feature to be able to spin on your Bard spells, and depending on what you took for Magical Secrets at 6, can be a BIG help. I have a Bard/Sorc I may be playing shortly in a mini-campaign our DM is running, He's level 16, and has 12 Bard 4 Sorc (and Metamagic Adept Feat) giving me 6 Sorc points to play with. I took Haste as one of my Magical Secrets so I can twin it on 2 of my melee buddies when I really want to boost their damage output and avoidance. Celestial Sorc allowed me o grab Shield of Faith as well, another one I can twin to buff just their AC. The versatility of the Metamagic on a myriad of spells I can cast makes for a very interesting character with a lot more firepower and utility than one might expect.
So I guess you can pick your poison, 3 level dip and get the 9th level Bard spell when you hit 20, or 4 level dip for more Sorc points to work with. Or a 2 level dip for a bit less benefit than the Feat, at the cost of base class levels. Personally I scrapped the idea of getting Wish in lieu of getting more Sorc points and more things I could do with them.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Why are you only taking 2 levels of Sorcerer?
Level 2 doesn't give a lot, other than 2 points that grants you one additional level 1 spell slot once/day.
Level 3 is when you gain metamagic talents on which to spend those points.
Thew OP said thay have taken metamagic adept so 2 levels of sorcerer allows them to use those extra 2 sorcery points on the metamagic talents they got from the feat (subtle and careful).The sorcerer dip also gives them 4 more cantrips and 2 more 1st level spells known
A third level of sorcer gives them 1 extra sorcery point and the ability to choose 2 more talents, a decent option but if they expect to use most of their sorcery points on subtle and careful spell it isn't the no brainer you suggest.
Yes. that metamagic adept feat is really good for low level sorcerors. Similarly the Eldritch Adept is good low level Warlocks.
Back to the main issue, the real comparison is which is better Bard 6/Sorc 2 or Bard 8. Bard Sorcer gives you only the 4th level spell slot, and so does sorceror. Yes, you can only use it to upcast bard or sorc spells, but that means you are giving up less. Bard 8th gives you just the ASI.
All in all, I think the Sorcerer abilities you get for 2 levels of Sorcerer MORE than make up for what you get as a Bard. I would take 2 levels of Sorcerer before I went to Bard 8.
There is even some argument to start Sorc after Bard 3, but I can see why you would wait till Bard 6.
Thanks for all the feedback. I already went 8 levels of bard to get 2 ASI/feats options ASAP. With taking Actor at lvl4 to cap my CHA at 20 it really fit with the first act of the campaign that focused on politics and kingdom stuff, "Game of Thrones style".
Then I decided Metamagic Adept at 8th (decided to take that and delay Resilient Con until 3rd ASI).
Party has 8 members total (Zealot Barb, Shadow Monk, Scout Rogue, Cleric x2 (Life & Tempest), Bard x2 (Valor & Lore), Transmutation Wizard. So I am focusing on Control and manipulation. Took Counterspell and Pass without Trace at 6th level (Monk wasn't Shadow originally). If I go straight to 10 Bard now, I'll prolly take Synaptic Static at 9th and something like Bigby's and Find Greater Steed at 10.
But I do like the idea of getting the extra cantrips, absorb elements and shield spells, and to 4 sorc points + ability to convert more sooner rather than later. Gives me more options and Aberrant Mind bonus spells and abilities fits the "mind mage" and Charlatan character background.
I think that utility may be worth delaying level 10 Magical Secrets to char level 12.
And yeah, I haven't fully decided on 2 or 3 sorc levels total just yet; as that really comes down to Wish vs 2 more Meta magic (prolly Twinned and Extend). I'll definitely do at least 17 Bard though for at least one 9th level spell choice (Foresight).