So, I've got this character that I'm building out who's supposed to be a fiend warlock. I want him to make heavy use of the Magic Stones cantrip, so I'm trying to build out a cool build, but none of the normal Magic Stones builds really work for him because I've got a very specific fantasy I'm trying to strike at with this character that doesn't allow for these other methods.
Basically, finger guns. I want this guy to cast Magic Stone on some Ball Bearings and to use them as bullets for finger guns. Like, he'd do a finger gun, and the ball bearing would levitate an inch in front of the finger, and he could fire it off as if he was wielding a pistol (the character is a warlock mafioso who's patron is a fiendish leader of a yugoloth mafia, so the finger-guns are a must-have for the mafioso vibe.) The finger guns are purely flavoring, they'd still function as if I was 'throwing' the magic stones rules-wise. But that means I won't be using a sling, and I won't be using summoned creatures to optimize the cantrip, and that removes a lot of combo potential.
My main idea right now is to go 1 level into warlock, then go 5 levels into Fighter for extra attack, and then continue into warlock. My goal is to be a ranged fighter, taking Battle Master as my subclass so that I can use stuff like Distracting Strike and Precision Strike to enhance the utility my Magic Stones provide. Then, since this is a 2024 warlock build, I'd use Eldritch Invocations to increase the Magic Stones' damage and allow them to push enemies around (Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast). I'd have to make the case to the DM that such invocations could work for the cantrip, but I think that they do work RAW and/or RAI.
But here's the kicker: before I worked out this combo, my original idea was for this guy to be a Sorcerer-Warlock. Specifically, Draconic Sorcerer. I'd flavor it as him bringing out some of his inner Yugoloth powers, giving him a decent unarmored AC, some good spells, and lvl 1 & 2 spell slots that I can burn on stuff like Shield. I know how powerful Sorlock builds can be, so I really wanna be a Sorlock...
So, here's the problem:
I want to BOTH be a fighter/warlock Multiclass AND a sorcerer/warlock Multiclass. It fits a REALLY REALLY specific identity for the character that I want to have, but I worry about its viability in combat.
Can a fiendwarlock 12 - BM fighter 5 - dragon sorcerer 3 build work? And if so, what spell/feature combos would you recommend to supplement this magic-stones fighting???
TL:DR;
I've got a Mafioso warlock build and I want to use Magic Stones for finger guns as my main kind of attack. The proposed build is Warlock 12, Fighter 5, Sorcerer 3, taking Fiend, Battle Master, and Draconic as subclasses. Can the build work, and what spells are best for it? Any unforeseen issues that I should think of?
Serious question - Just how many campaigns do you get to play in where you get to level from 1 to 20?
I have run a few campaigns that went from 1 to 18 but work and school and babies got in the way of going to 20. Being able to play in multiple campaigns that get that high is pretty amazing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
I do agree with Wysperra, but at the same time I enjoy planning things out all the way ti level 20 just to see the “finished product.” That being said, you don’t want to set yourself back and never reach the point of being viable (or at the very least fun), which is exactly what tends to happen most of the time when you multiclass.
As for a magic stone build, it ironically starts off better but eventually grows worse compared to other paths of damage, so you might get to the level you need for your combo just as it becomes obsolete.
I’m honestly having trouble understanding what you are getting out of this build you cannot get with just a straight warlock or sorcerer taking magic stones. You need to have a real plan and goal when you multiclass, and this doesn’t seem worth it just to cast this spell you can get easily at level 1 with just one class.
You may already no this, but warlocks can get uo to 3 attacks with pact of the blade eldritch invocations, you cannot get the maximum of 4 attacks in fighter if you multiclass, and magic stones as a spell only hits once anyway, making your extra attack on the fighter pointless.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough. Know that there are some old sorcerer/warlock and new fighter/warlock builds, but the sorcerer and fighter fill the same goal of giving a boost to constitution saving throws, so you don’t need both, only one, and not all three. I would strongly advise deciding on a single class you want that has magic stones and build around it and it alone. I would recommend the warlock due to agonizing/repelling blast supposedly working on other spells now, but I never figured out how to get that to work, so you’re on your own there.
Serious question - Just how many campaigns do you get to play in where you get to level from 1 to 20?
I have run a few campaigns that went from 1 to 18 but work and school and babies got in the way of going to 20. Being able to play in multiple campaigns that get that high is pretty amazing.
Well, I can plan up to level 20, but it's playable at any level. I designed it with having fun at any point in mind; that's why I go into fighter so early, so that I'll get Extra Attack at around the same time that the other players get to. I don't need to get all the way to level 20 for the build to be fun, I just planned up to that point
You may already no this, but warlocks can get uo to 3 attacks with pact of the blade eldritch invocations, you cannot get the maximum of 4 attacks in fighter if you multiclass, and magic stones as a spell only hits once anyway, making your extra attack on the fighter pointless.
Actually, I've already thought of this. Pact of the Blade can't be used on the Magic Stones, because they're not weapons, and they can't be used on Slings, because they're ranged, not melee. Not only that, but I don't want to use a sling, and what build I want to play is just as important as how strong the build is. That means that Warlocks can't use Extra Attack to benefit Magic Stones. In order to get Extra Attack for this build, I gotta go into some kind of martial class for at least 5 levels, and I thought Fighter would work best, because of the Battle Master subclass being able to use Superiority Die to improve my fighting with the Magic Stones. So I gotta go a bit into fighter just for that, but I also just want to play Sorlock, for the extra spell slots, the spells I can cast to benefit my fighting and team, and the Draconic Resilience.
Agonizing Blast arguably doesn't work with Magic Stone, Repelling Blast might but it's honestly not that good. Personally, I'd get Magic Stone from Magic Initiate, then go almost entirely Fighter, you're still not going to be good in combat, but you should manage to be viable, you can always dip one level into Barbarian to get unarmoured defence if that is crucial to the character concept.
Alternatively, IMO a more thematic build would be Warlock-Rogue, this lets you circumvent needing Extra Attack and frees up some of your Bonus Actions for things other than casting Magic Stone - you just need to convince your DM to allow Sneak Attack to work with thrown Magic stone (it would work RAW if you were using a sling). Plus a mafiosto that kills enemies with one bullet 'feels' more intimitating than one firing a deluge of them, but up to you. I don't know if you've already picked out a species for this character but you can get decent unarmoured AC with the right choice there. You could also see if your DM would allow combining True Strike with your thrown Magic Stone since RAW it would work if you were using a sling. Stacking Magic Stone + Sneak Attack + True Strike should give you decent damage even without extra attack.
A 3 level sorcerer dip is going to cost you a lot in terms of damage in exchange for higher defences, up to you if you think it's worth it, personally I'd stick with Rogue for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion instead.
It doesn't say you must spend your action to throw a stone???
It says that you can make a ranged spell attack by throwing it - throwing the stone counts as an attack. The bonus action doesn't attack with it, it only creates the stones.
Agonizing Blast arguably doesn't work with Magic Stone, Repelling Blast might but it's honestly not that good. Personally, I'd get Magic Stone from Magic Initiate, then go almost entirely Fighter, you're still not going to be good in combat, but you should manage to be viable, you can always dip one level into Barbarian to get unarmoured defence if that is crucial to the character concept.
Alternatively, IMO a more thematic build would be Warlock-Rogue, this lets you circumvent needing Extra Attack and frees up some of your Bonus Actions for things other than casting Magic Stone - you just need to convince your DM to allow Sneak Attack to work with thrown Magic stone (it would work RAW if you were using a sling). Plus a mafiosto that kills enemies with one bullet 'feels' more intimitating than one firing a deluge of them, but up to you. I don't know if you've already picked out a species for this character but you can get decent unarmoured AC with the right choice there. You could also see if your DM would allow combining True Strike with your thrown Magic Stone since RAW it would work if you were using a sling. Stacking Magic Stone + Sneak Attack + True Strike should give you decent damage even without extra attack.
A 3 level sorcerer dip is going to cost you a lot in terms of damage in exchange for higher defences, up to you if you think it's worth it, personally I'd stick with Rogue for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion instead.
Good point. I'm thinking that the sorcerer dip may not be worth it; this guy should either be a Sorlock, or a sorcerer-fighter. The synergy isn't there for a triple multiclass. Shame to put aside that aspect of him, though; sorlocks are always fun to play.
The rogue aspect is an idea I really do enjoy, it'd be great for a mafioso character. But I also just love the idea of combining the new Battle Master maneuvers with attack roll spells, so I'll probably keep with the fighter/warlock multi-class (also, because it's just more satisfying for everything to fit in RAW - figuring out the perfect build without taking homebrew shortcuts is like solving a puzzle, it's fun)
But I also just love the idea of combining the new Battle Master maneuvers with attack roll spells, so I'll probably keep with the fighter/warlock multi-class.
Sorry, what new Battlemaster maneuvers? They look all the same as in 2014 to me. If you've already settled on your build what is the question you wanted help with then?
If it is the "spell/feature combos" there aren't any because if you have Extra Attack, then you must use your BA every turn to cast Magic Stone, and use your Action every turn to launch the stones. The only action you have left for features / spells is a reaction which is super limited, you've got.... Hellish Rebuke, Counterspell, Interception Fighting Style.... that's pretty much it. Maybe Cloud of Daggers if you can line up your repelling blasts perfectly to knock enemies back into it.
For Maneuvers you've got these that will work for you (if limiting ourselves to completely RAW):
Excellent: Commander’s Strike - most characters will be doing more damage with their attacks then you so this is a good choice.
Good: Bait and Switch - nice way to buff your AC. Ambush - Stealth and Initiative can be very powerful when combat is short. Distracting Strike. - good but advantage is pretty easy to get in 2024. Menacing Attack.- frightened is excellent condition to impose, but just keep in mind your DC is based on DEX/STR so it's not going to be that great. Precision Attack. - broadly useful, and good since you aren't adding Archery to your attack roll. But since you don't deal much damage on a hit not spectacular.
Meh:
Commanding Presence - your CHA is already good, this isn't that useful Disarming Attack. - great in the right situation but pretty niche Evasive Footwork. - just not very useful ever. Maneuvering Attack. - can be great in the right situation but niche Goading Attack. - Nice if you can keep out of reach of the target, but you're going to be pretty squishy so you don't really want enemies attacking you. Also your DC is based on STR/DEX so this isn't going to work all that often. Tactical Assessment. - Niche.
For Feats: There aren't really any that are that useful, maybe Inspiring Leader for the theme and it's a pretty good feat for the whole party. Just take ASIs to max out your CHA and DEX/CON.
I know how powerful Sorlock builds can be, so I really wanna be a Sorlock..
Sorlock builds are powerful for one very specific reason: spamming 2x Eldritch Blasts + Agonizing Blast every turn using Quicken spell. If you aren't using Eldritch Blast then Sorlock is not a powerful build.
But I also just love the idea of combining the new Battle Master maneuvers with attack roll spells, so I'll probably keep with the fighter/warlock multi-class.
Sorry, what new Battlemaster maneuvers? They look all the same as in 2014 to me. If you've already settled on your build what is the question you wanted help with then?
What I mean by 'new' maneuvers is that most of them have been changed in big ways. They used to have the trigger of "if you hit a creature with a weapon attack", but now, a lot of them just say "if you hit a creature with an attack roll", meaning that spell attack rolls can now trigger their effects as well. So, the potential of a Battle Master spellcaster build is big. You could hit someone with a Ray of Sickness to give them disadvantage on attack rolls and then use Distracting Strike to give your team advantage against them; or, if you miss Ray of Sickness, you could spend Precision Strike to hopefully hit with it!
And of course, when it comes to spell/feature combos, I can just do stuff across multiple turns. I could just spend my action/bonus action getting magic stones and dealing some damage with them, if dps numbers is all I'm tryna do. But I can also have the choice of spending my action casting stuff that can sway the course of the fight in other ways, like casting Fear or Hold Person to disrupt the enemies' effectiveness and help my team out. Once I use my Action for that, I could use my Bonus Action to heal myself and disengage with Second Wind. Having so many choices for my Action and Bonus Action lets me be useful in almost any situation. I definitely don't just want to do the same thing every turn; I wanna use the Magic Stones, but I don't want to do nothing but Magic Stone.
Finally, the Eldritch Blast combo for Sorlock is powerful, but Sorlock is good for many reasons beyond just that. Heightened Spell can ensure that the Hold Person you're casting with your precious Warlock spell slot won't be wasted by all but guaranteeing a failed save, and Twinned Spell can help you wring out even more effectiveness from a spell like Command by targeting even more enemies with it. Not to mention that, just by going 3 levels into Sorcerer, you get 6 low-level spell slots that you can dump on non-scaling yet useful spells like Shield or Misty Step without needing to waste one of your much more powerful and precious Warlock spell slots on it. A small dip into Sorcerer can do Warlock wonders!
And the last thing; I'm more or less settled on the build, but I was worried about strength in combat. I think I was right to ask about it, because I do realize that it can't work is a fighter-warlock-sorcerer multiclass, so I'll just be doing fighter/warlock. I also realize that it's definitely not the greatest build, but I'm fine with a just a normal-strength build as long as it's fun.
Finally, the Eldritch Blast combo for Sorlock is powerful, but Sorlock is good for many reasons beyond just that. Heightened Spell can ensure that the Hold Person you're casting with your precious Warlock spell slot won't be wasted by all but guaranteeing a failed save, and Twinned Spell can help you wring out even more effectiveness from a spell like Command by targeting even more enemies with it. Not to mention that, just by going 3 levels into Sorcerer, you get 6 low-level spell slots that you can dump on non-scaling yet useful spells like Shield or Misty Step without needing to waste one of your much more powerful and precious Warlock spell slots on it. A small dip into Sorcerer can do Warlock wonders!
Everything else you mentioned there you would be better at as a straight Sorcerer and not have any warlock levels. So it doesn't make Sorlock more powerful than a single-class sorcerer. The reason that Sorlock becomes more powerful than either single-class is EB+Quicken Spell.
So, the potential of a Battle Master spellcaster build is big.
Sorry I'm not seeing it, you are losing out 3 full levels of spellcaster for some mediocre bonuses that are mostly just worse than your spells. e.g.
Battle Master-3 + Sorcerer 5 = total level 8, with: 4x 1st, 3x2nd, 2x3rd level slots and maximum spell level of 3, and only 1 ASI/Feat Sorcerer-8 = total level 8 with: 4x 1st, 3x 2nd, 3x 3rd, 2x 4th level slots and maximum spell level of 4 and 2 ASI/Feats
Sure on a few attack roll spells I have slightly better chance to hit, or could give 1 ally 1 attack at advantage, but at Sorcerer-8 I could cast Greater Invisibility on my ally to give them advantage on all attacks and enemies disadvantage on all attacks on them.
That before we consider that almost all attack roll spells... kinda aren't good. Ooh I could give a bonus to scorching ray beams chance to hit, or I could just cast Fireball and nuke multiple enemies for more damage than that scorching ray. Ooh I could give 1 set if advantage on a target after hitting them with ray of sickness, or I can cast Maximilian's Earthen Hand and give everyone advantage by restraining the target.
But you clearly love the concept for your build so just go play it! And have fun, you won't be that powerful but you'll love the character and that's all that matters in the end. DMs can easily adjust character power levels by giving out magic items or bonus feats if one player is having a bad time because they feel like their character is underpowered.
Commanding Presence - your CHA is already good, this isn't that useful Disarming Attack. - great in the right situation but pretty niche Evasive Footwork. - just not very useful ever. Maneuvering Attack. - can be great in the right situation but niche Goading Attack. - Nice if you can keep out of reach of the target, but you're going to be pretty squishy so you don't really want enemies attacking you. Also your DC is based on STR/DEX so this isn't going to work all that often. Tactical Assessment. - Niche.
Just to chime in here... as someone who has played a ranged Battle Master recently, Maneuvering Attack had surprising utility either to get other party members into or out of melee, and Goading Attack was basically my standard shot. Now, that was with a heavy crossbow not magic stones, but it's not like I was constantly at max range. Both were way better than "Meh" for me
As far as the overall build goes, if you're committed to the magic stone finger guns bit, you're committing to it being sub-optimal when it comes to things like DPR. There's no way to make that build "viable" if that's your focus
However, if you stack up spells, invocations and maneuvers, you can do a lot of fun things. I might not even bother with Agonizing Blast on a character like that -- instead I'd make a full-on utility/support character, and find ways to flavor other spells/invocations as involving those finger gun pebbles too. Turn them into Portal guns with vortex warp, for instance. Just go wild with it
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Finally, the Eldritch Blast combo for Sorlock is powerful, but Sorlock is good for many reasons beyond just that. Heightened Spell can ensure that the Hold Person you're casting with your precious Warlock spell slot won't be wasted by all but guaranteeing a failed save, and Twinned Spell can help you wring out even more effectiveness from a spell like Command by targeting even more enemies with it. Not to mention that, just by going 3 levels into Sorcerer, you get 6 low-level spell slots that you can dump on non-scaling yet useful spells like Shield or Misty Step without needing to waste one of your much more powerful and precious Warlock spell slots on it. A small dip into Sorcerer can do Warlock wonders!
Everything else you mentioned there you would be better at as a straight Sorcerer and not have any warlock levels. So it doesn't make Sorlock more powerful than a single-class sorcerer. The reason that Sorlock becomes more powerful than either single-class is EB+Quicken Spell.
That's far oversimplifying it, isn't it? If you go straight sorcerer, you don't get Eldritch Invocations or the Warlock spell list. if you go straight Warlock, you don't get metamagic or the extra spell slots. Saying that I could just go straight sorcerer is not a plus, y'know? It's not better to go straight sorcerer because I wanted to play a sorlock and I wouldn't be getting what I want. I wanted to get metamagic and eldritch invocations, and I wouldn't be getting that, so how would playing a single-class ever be better than playing the multiclass? That doesn't make sense. All of this stuff about the highest dpr and such is cool for viability, and it's important to be strong in combat (which is why I started this thread about my build's viability), but we have to remember that it's all secondary. DnD is not a game about numbers. The moment we suggest throwing out what we want to be playing in favor of what's more viable, we've lost this game. So I don't care for advice like that.
I feel the same way about what you have to say about the Battle Master spellcaster idea. I could cast greater invisibility to give my teammate advantage on their attack rolls, but that's just doing something totally different then the appeal of the Battle Master spellcaster idea. It's not a replacement just because it can do better DPR. Casting Fireball is not the same as disarming or tripping someone with a bolt of fire from a Scorching Ray; Fireball is more powerful, but that makes it a replacement only in damage numbers. Nothing else.
Thank you for your input throughout this thread, you've got a really good technical eye that gave me great insight on the rules. I'm newer to DnD, so it gave me a lot of good stuff to think about. You've helped me make the build I want to play just that bit more viable, and that's greatly appreciated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, I've got this character that I'm building out who's supposed to be a fiend warlock. I want him to make heavy use of the Magic Stones cantrip, so I'm trying to build out a cool build, but none of the normal Magic Stones builds really work for him because I've got a very specific fantasy I'm trying to strike at with this character that doesn't allow for these other methods.
Basically, finger guns. I want this guy to cast Magic Stone on some Ball Bearings and to use them as bullets for finger guns. Like, he'd do a finger gun, and the ball bearing would levitate an inch in front of the finger, and he could fire it off as if he was wielding a pistol (the character is a warlock mafioso who's patron is a fiendish leader of a yugoloth mafia, so the finger-guns are a must-have for the mafioso vibe.) The finger guns are purely flavoring, they'd still function as if I was 'throwing' the magic stones rules-wise. But that means I won't be using a sling, and I won't be using summoned creatures to optimize the cantrip, and that removes a lot of combo potential.
My main idea right now is to go 1 level into warlock, then go 5 levels into Fighter for extra attack, and then continue into warlock. My goal is to be a ranged fighter, taking Battle Master as my subclass so that I can use stuff like Distracting Strike and Precision Strike to enhance the utility my Magic Stones provide. Then, since this is a 2024 warlock build, I'd use Eldritch Invocations to increase the Magic Stones' damage and allow them to push enemies around (Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast). I'd have to make the case to the DM that such invocations could work for the cantrip, but I think that they do work RAW and/or RAI.
But here's the kicker: before I worked out this combo, my original idea was for this guy to be a Sorcerer-Warlock. Specifically, Draconic Sorcerer. I'd flavor it as him bringing out some of his inner Yugoloth powers, giving him a decent unarmored AC, some good spells, and lvl 1 & 2 spell slots that I can burn on stuff like Shield. I know how powerful Sorlock builds can be, so I really wanna be a Sorlock...
So, here's the problem:
I want to BOTH be a fighter/warlock Multiclass AND a sorcerer/warlock Multiclass. It fits a REALLY REALLY specific identity for the character that I want to have, but I worry about its viability in combat.
Can a fiend warlock 12 - BM fighter 5 - dragon sorcerer 3 build work? And if so, what spell/feature combos would you recommend to supplement this magic-stones fighting???
TL:DR;
I've got a Mafioso warlock build and I want to use Magic Stones for finger guns as my main kind of attack. The proposed build is Warlock 12, Fighter 5, Sorcerer 3, taking Fiend, Battle Master, and Draconic as subclasses. Can the build work, and what spells are best for it? Any unforeseen issues that I should think of?
Serious question - Just how many campaigns do you get to play in where you get to level from 1 to 20?
I have run a few campaigns that went from 1 to 18 but work and school and babies got in the way of going to 20. Being able to play in multiple campaigns that get that high is pretty amazing.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I do agree with Wysperra, but at the same time I enjoy planning things out all the way ti level 20 just to see the “finished product.” That being said, you don’t want to set yourself back and never reach the point of being viable (or at the very least fun), which is exactly what tends to happen most of the time when you multiclass.
As for a magic stone build, it ironically starts off better but eventually grows worse compared to other paths of damage, so you might get to the level you need for your combo just as it becomes obsolete.
I’m honestly having trouble understanding what you are getting out of this build you cannot get with just a straight warlock or sorcerer taking magic stones. You need to have a real plan and goal when you multiclass, and this doesn’t seem worth it just to cast this spell you can get easily at level 1 with just one class.
You may already no this, but warlocks can get uo to 3 attacks with pact of the blade eldritch invocations, you cannot get the maximum of 4 attacks in fighter if you multiclass, and magic stones as a spell only hits once anyway, making your extra attack on the fighter pointless.
Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough. Know that there are some old sorcerer/warlock and new fighter/warlock builds, but the sorcerer and fighter fill the same goal of giving a boost to constitution saving throws, so you don’t need both, only one, and not all three. I would strongly advise deciding on a single class you want that has magic stones and build around it and it alone. I would recommend the warlock due to agonizing/repelling blast supposedly working on other spells now, but I never figured out how to get that to work, so you’re on your own there.
Best of luck!
Well, I can plan up to level 20, but it's playable at any level. I designed it with having fun at any point in mind; that's why I go into fighter so early, so that I'll get Extra Attack at around the same time that the other players get to. I don't need to get all the way to level 20 for the build to be fun, I just planned up to that point
Actually, I've already thought of this. Pact of the Blade can't be used on the Magic Stones, because they're not weapons, and they can't be used on Slings, because they're ranged, not melee. Not only that, but I don't want to use a sling, and what build I want to play is just as important as how strong the build is. That means that Warlocks can't use Extra Attack to benefit Magic Stones. In order to get Extra Attack for this build, I gotta go into some kind of martial class for at least 5 levels, and I thought Fighter would work best, because of the Battle Master subclass being able to use Superiority Die to improve my fighting with the Magic Stones. So I gotta go a bit into fighter just for that, but I also just want to play Sorlock, for the extra spell slots, the spells I can cast to benefit my fighting and team, and the Draconic Resilience.
magic stone
It doesn't say you must spend your action to throw a stone???
Agonizing Blast arguably doesn't work with Magic Stone, Repelling Blast might but it's honestly not that good. Personally, I'd get Magic Stone from Magic Initiate, then go almost entirely Fighter, you're still not going to be good in combat, but you should manage to be viable, you can always dip one level into Barbarian to get unarmoured defence if that is crucial to the character concept.
Alternatively, IMO a more thematic build would be Warlock-Rogue, this lets you circumvent needing Extra Attack and frees up some of your Bonus Actions for things other than casting Magic Stone - you just need to convince your DM to allow Sneak Attack to work with thrown Magic stone (it would work RAW if you were using a sling). Plus a mafiosto that kills enemies with one bullet 'feels' more intimitating than one firing a deluge of them, but up to you. I don't know if you've already picked out a species for this character but you can get decent unarmoured AC with the right choice there. You could also see if your DM would allow combining True Strike with your thrown Magic Stone since RAW it would work if you were using a sling. Stacking Magic Stone + Sneak Attack + True Strike should give you decent damage even without extra attack.
A 3 level sorcerer dip is going to cost you a lot in terms of damage in exchange for higher defences, up to you if you think it's worth it, personally I'd stick with Rogue for Uncanny Dodge and Evasion instead.
It says that you can make a ranged spell attack by throwing it - throwing the stone counts as an attack. The bonus action doesn't attack with it, it only creates the stones.
Good point. I'm thinking that the sorcerer dip may not be worth it; this guy should either be a Sorlock, or a sorcerer-fighter. The synergy isn't there for a triple multiclass. Shame to put aside that aspect of him, though; sorlocks are always fun to play.
The rogue aspect is an idea I really do enjoy, it'd be great for a mafioso character. But I also just love the idea of combining the new Battle Master maneuvers with attack roll spells, so I'll probably keep with the fighter/warlock multi-class (also, because it's just more satisfying for everything to fit in RAW - figuring out the perfect build without taking homebrew shortcuts is like solving a puzzle, it's fun)
Thanks for the input 👍
Sorry, what new Battlemaster maneuvers? They look all the same as in 2014 to me. If you've already settled on your build what is the question you wanted help with then?
If it is the "spell/feature combos" there aren't any because if you have Extra Attack, then you must use your BA every turn to cast Magic Stone, and use your Action every turn to launch the stones. The only action you have left for features / spells is a reaction which is super limited, you've got.... Hellish Rebuke, Counterspell, Interception Fighting Style.... that's pretty much it. Maybe Cloud of Daggers if you can line up your repelling blasts perfectly to knock enemies back into it.
For Maneuvers you've got these that will work for you (if limiting ourselves to completely RAW):
Excellent:
Commander’s Strike - most characters will be doing more damage with their attacks then you so this is a good choice.
Good:
Bait and Switch - nice way to buff your AC.
Ambush - Stealth and Initiative can be very powerful when combat is short.
Distracting Strike. - good but advantage is pretty easy to get in 2024.
Menacing Attack.- frightened is excellent condition to impose, but just keep in mind your DC is based on DEX/STR so it's not going to be that great.
Precision Attack. - broadly useful, and good since you aren't adding Archery to your attack roll. But since you don't deal much damage on a hit not spectacular.
Meh:
Commanding Presence - your CHA is already good, this isn't that useful
Disarming Attack. - great in the right situation but pretty niche
Evasive Footwork. - just not very useful ever.
Maneuvering Attack. - can be great in the right situation but niche
Goading Attack. - Nice if you can keep out of reach of the target, but you're going to be pretty squishy so you don't really want enemies attacking you. Also your DC is based on STR/DEX so this isn't going to work all that often.
Tactical Assessment. - Niche.
For Feats: There aren't really any that are that useful, maybe Inspiring Leader for the theme and it's a pretty good feat for the whole party. Just take ASIs to max out your CHA and DEX/CON.
Sorlock builds are powerful for one very specific reason: spamming 2x Eldritch Blasts + Agonizing Blast every turn using Quicken spell. If you aren't using Eldritch Blast then Sorlock is not a powerful build.
What I mean by 'new' maneuvers is that most of them have been changed in big ways. They used to have the trigger of "if you hit a creature with a weapon attack", but now, a lot of them just say "if you hit a creature with an attack roll", meaning that spell attack rolls can now trigger their effects as well. So, the potential of a Battle Master spellcaster build is big. You could hit someone with a Ray of Sickness to give them disadvantage on attack rolls and then use Distracting Strike to give your team advantage against them; or, if you miss Ray of Sickness, you could spend Precision Strike to hopefully hit with it!
And of course, when it comes to spell/feature combos, I can just do stuff across multiple turns. I could just spend my action/bonus action getting magic stones and dealing some damage with them, if dps numbers is all I'm tryna do. But I can also have the choice of spending my action casting stuff that can sway the course of the fight in other ways, like casting Fear or Hold Person to disrupt the enemies' effectiveness and help my team out. Once I use my Action for that, I could use my Bonus Action to heal myself and disengage with Second Wind. Having so many choices for my Action and Bonus Action lets me be useful in almost any situation. I definitely don't just want to do the same thing every turn; I wanna use the Magic Stones, but I don't want to do nothing but Magic Stone.
Finally, the Eldritch Blast combo for Sorlock is powerful, but Sorlock is good for many reasons beyond just that. Heightened Spell can ensure that the Hold Person you're casting with your precious Warlock spell slot won't be wasted by all but guaranteeing a failed save, and Twinned Spell can help you wring out even more effectiveness from a spell like Command by targeting even more enemies with it. Not to mention that, just by going 3 levels into Sorcerer, you get 6 low-level spell slots that you can dump on non-scaling yet useful spells like Shield or Misty Step without needing to waste one of your much more powerful and precious Warlock spell slots on it. A small dip into Sorcerer can do Warlock wonders!
And the last thing; I'm more or less settled on the build, but I was worried about strength in combat. I think I was right to ask about it, because I do realize that it can't work is a fighter-warlock-sorcerer multiclass, so I'll just be doing fighter/warlock. I also realize that it's definitely not the greatest build, but I'm fine with a just a normal-strength build as long as it's fun.
Everything else you mentioned there you would be better at as a straight Sorcerer and not have any warlock levels. So it doesn't make Sorlock more powerful than a single-class sorcerer. The reason that Sorlock becomes more powerful than either single-class is EB+Quicken Spell.
Sorry I'm not seeing it, you are losing out 3 full levels of spellcaster for some mediocre bonuses that are mostly just worse than your spells. e.g.
Battle Master-3 + Sorcerer 5 = total level 8, with: 4x 1st, 3x2nd, 2x3rd level slots and maximum spell level of 3, and only 1 ASI/Feat
Sorcerer-8 = total level 8 with: 4x 1st, 3x 2nd, 3x 3rd, 2x 4th level slots and maximum spell level of 4 and 2 ASI/Feats
Sure on a few attack roll spells I have slightly better chance to hit, or could give 1 ally 1 attack at advantage, but at Sorcerer-8 I could cast Greater Invisibility on my ally to give them advantage on all attacks and enemies disadvantage on all attacks on them.
That before we consider that almost all attack roll spells... kinda aren't good. Ooh I could give a bonus to scorching ray beams chance to hit, or I could just cast Fireball and nuke multiple enemies for more damage than that scorching ray. Ooh I could give 1 set if advantage on a target after hitting them with ray of sickness, or I can cast Maximilian's Earthen Hand and give everyone advantage by restraining the target.
But you clearly love the concept for your build so just go play it! And have fun, you won't be that powerful but you'll love the character and that's all that matters in the end. DMs can easily adjust character power levels by giving out magic items or bonus feats if one player is having a bad time because they feel like their character is underpowered.
Just to chime in here... as someone who has played a ranged Battle Master recently, Maneuvering Attack had surprising utility either to get other party members into or out of melee, and Goading Attack was basically my standard shot. Now, that was with a heavy crossbow not magic stones, but it's not like I was constantly at max range. Both were way better than "Meh" for me
As far as the overall build goes, if you're committed to the magic stone finger guns bit, you're committing to it being sub-optimal when it comes to things like DPR. There's no way to make that build "viable" if that's your focus
However, if you stack up spells, invocations and maneuvers, you can do a lot of fun things. I might not even bother with Agonizing Blast on a character like that -- instead I'd make a full-on utility/support character, and find ways to flavor other spells/invocations as involving those finger gun pebbles too. Turn them into Portal guns with vortex warp, for instance. Just go wild with it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That's far oversimplifying it, isn't it? If you go straight sorcerer, you don't get Eldritch Invocations or the Warlock spell list. if you go straight Warlock, you don't get metamagic or the extra spell slots. Saying that I could just go straight sorcerer is not a plus, y'know? It's not better to go straight sorcerer because I wanted to play a sorlock and I wouldn't be getting what I want. I wanted to get metamagic and eldritch invocations, and I wouldn't be getting that, so how would playing a single-class ever be better than playing the multiclass? That doesn't make sense. All of this stuff about the highest dpr and such is cool for viability, and it's important to be strong in combat (which is why I started this thread about my build's viability), but we have to remember that it's all secondary. DnD is not a game about numbers. The moment we suggest throwing out what we want to be playing in favor of what's more viable, we've lost this game. So I don't care for advice like that.
I feel the same way about what you have to say about the Battle Master spellcaster idea. I could cast greater invisibility to give my teammate advantage on their attack rolls, but that's just doing something totally different then the appeal of the Battle Master spellcaster idea. It's not a replacement just because it can do better DPR. Casting Fireball is not the same as disarming or tripping someone with a bolt of fire from a Scorching Ray; Fireball is more powerful, but that makes it a replacement only in damage numbers. Nothing else.
Thank you for your input throughout this thread, you've got a really good technical eye that gave me great insight on the rules. I'm newer to DnD, so it gave me a lot of good stuff to think about. You've helped me make the build I want to play just that bit more viable, and that's greatly appreciated.