I had made a Fighter/Warlock dual wielding Gish character for a virtual dnd campaign, and I've realized it's not cutting it due to several factors:
1.Too much verticality: The DM is using a 3d program called Talespire, and it takes me forever to get into melee range sometimes because of verticality.
2. Combat is rarer than I'd like: I'd say one combat encounter every 4-6 hours of campaign time, maybe it'll pick up, but I don't want to have a clunky build that only gets to fully shine in some scenarios or higher levels. Spaced out combats also mean the short rest benefit of a warlock is way less impactful.
3. Slow leveling?: This one might be just a personal preference - when I DM, I tend to level up my players pretty quickly. This campaign however we've been at level 3 for 16 hours of game time, going on to 20, and I realize that level 5 may be quite some time away. (I understand that this may be a more average pace than some -> but for 2 hour sessions once a week, I'm itching for mid-levels!) So, I need a build that is more functional at level 4.
4. Slow Combat: The DM has enemies running around the board hiding, making death saving throws, and rolling for all attacks live -> and with all the verticality and waiting on allies, combat can really take some time. I want a build that can be quick enough to get into the action sooner and catch up to cowardly enemies. (My old build would just fire a cantrip for the majority of combat as stuff died before he even made it to melee).
5. DM Doesn't really care about somatic components: I've not really worried about if my hands are busy or not, and so Warcaster has minor necessity. -----
My Desires:
1. Sword and Sorcery: I don't want to just cast a spell and maybe hit with a sword, or just hit and cast only something like a smite. I'd like to do something like misty step, then attack, or healing word and strike, etc.
2. Shield OR Dual-Wield: I've done the GWM build before, I'm kind of tired with it - I'd like a strong build with either "sword and shield" or two-weapons.
3. Utilizes the full action economy: Reaction, action/two attacks, bonus action, movement - I'd like to use my full economy consistently. (Especially since I only get a couple of turns during a combat, I'd like them to feel impactful and fulfilling.)
4. Decent at lvl 4, awesome at lvl 5: I don't know if I'll make it past level 5 with this campaign, so I'd like the build to be enjoyable within the constraints I have.
----- Things that have to stay:
Human
ASI numbers (can redistribute): 18/16/16/8/8/8
My gear (I have splint armor and a bunch of weapons that I can sell for the new build, but limited).
----
My Build ideas: (Lvl 3- soon to be lvl 4)
1. Bladesigner:
-Though/Alert -> Shadowblade
-lvl 4 feat: Dual-wielder
-Pros: Durable, plenty of utility and spells, and fast
-Cons: Dual wielding is a little rough until maybe level 7 if I dip into rogue/fighter for Nick weapon mastery OR go fighter at lvl 1 (Which means I have to wait until level 7 for cantrip extra attack, which I may never get to, idk).
2.Pact Lock:
-Wizard initiate/Lucky
-Dao Genie subclass OR Hexblade for shield/Armor, Agonizing Blast (True Strike)/Eldritch Mind/Pact of Tome
-Shadowblade (If dm allows, true strike with it-otherwise go shillelagh from pact of tome)/misty step
-lvl 4 Feat: Spellfire Adept OR Feytouched
-lvl 5: Thirsting blade, Improved pact of the blade, Replace agonizing blast w/pact of the blade --> go shillelagh over shadowblade
Pros: Feels diverse.
Cons: SO much investment just to get a gish together, and since combat is so spaced out, I feel it's rare the short rests even matter -> Long rests are pretty frequent between combats, so warlock is running out of resources fast. Also, pretty squishy
3.Fighter-Lock v.2:
-Tough/Wizard Initiate
-Shield + Dueling + Shillelagh
-Agonizing Blast (True Strike)/Pact of the Chain (quasit for help)/Pact of Tome (Shillelagh)
-Lvl 4: Dao Genie OR Archfey
-lvl 5: Spellfire Adept
-lvl 6: Thirsting blade/Improved Blade/Swap agonizing blast for pact of blade.
Pros: More durable than build 1, and a lot less clunky
Cons: Slower, and it won't be until level 6 that I get extra attack -> though shillelagh and true strike scaling will help.
4.Eldritch Knight:
-Spellfire Spark/Druid Initiate
-Two-weapon fighting + Shillelagh club and scimitar
-lvl 4: Dual-wielder
-lvl 7: Shadowblade + Shillelagh
Pros: A cool fighter, and get's the dual-wielding thing down. Uses all my resources.
Cons: Takes until lvl 7 to get the full things I want, and spellfire spark might be a dud here late game (it's just to let me have the spell+attack I wanted), ---> takes forever to get second level spells for shadowblade.
The problems you describe will not be solved by a different character concept. You seem to have a different playstyle than the DM. This is really a session 0 problem.
Yes, I agree that the DM and I are very different in how we look at the game for sure. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do there - other than he's allowed me to pay gold to respec everything except my race basically. So, I'm trying to find something I'll enjoy that fits within the way he runs the game.
Yes, I agree that the DM and I are very different in how we look at the game for sure. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do there - other than he's allowed me to pay gold to respec everything except my race basically. So, I'm trying to find something I'll enjoy that fits within the way he runs the game.
Well, what you can do is find another game. This one clearly doesn’t match the kind of game you want. Changing your character to fit might help a little, but it will do nothing for the underlying issue. Eventually you, the DM, the rest of the party, or some combination of those, will get frustrated and angry and it won’t be fun for anyone. Bow out now, gracefully, and find a different group before it gets hostile and miserable.
The DM has enemies running around the board hiding, making death saving throws
Say what now? Sounds like you just have a very adversarial DM
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Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Idk, I think the expectations weren't very clear before we started. In hindsight, there's different ways I would have approached things if I understood better.
Yes, I agree that the DM and I are very different in how we look at the game for sure. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do there - other than he's allowed me to pay gold to respec everything
Okay, still, maneuverability is one issue with your current character. You can solve that with a focus on distance or by making your character more maneuverable.
Straight Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger Wizard will probably be the easiest and you don't have to worry about delaying anything for multiclassing.
Consider Archfey Warlock.
I would suggest 18 Charisma, 16 Constitution, and 16 Dexterity or Strength.
The patron gives you multiple (4 with an 18 Charisma) free Misty Step uses (you can use the temporary hit points rider effect to make yourself tankier)
The Otherwordly Leap Invocation can let you cast Jump on yourself at will and Devil's Sight will make it easier for you to see enemies in any kind of darkness. This also applies to other Warlock Subclasses, like Hexblade and Genie. I would think Devil's Sight would be a lower priority than other options.
Archfey/Warlock have some useful spells. Eldritch Blast can target multiple enemies so you can use it to target one that is hiding to heal and the currently active target or you can focus all the beams on one target.
1 level in Fighter delays your first general feat but gives a lot and allows you to keep the heavy armor if you put a 16 into Strength or sell it and have a 16 Dex + Mage Armor (via spell or Invocation) for a 16 AC.
Supports both Dual Wield and Sword and Board and you can swap out if level up in Fighter (but not if you don't).
Two-weapon Fighting + Dual Wielding would be more DPR but a 3/1 build won't have a general feat yet.
Dueling Fighting Style + Shield will give decent damage and an 18 AC with Mage Armor (16 Dex) or 19 with Splint (16 Strength).
Con: You won't get extra attacks until level 6+ with any multiclassing build.
Pact of the Blade would be obvious for your build if you want to lean into Charisma. You could disregard Charisma and lean into Strength or Dexterity for your weapon attacks. You can use this as a spellcasting focus and it is not restricted to Warlock spells.
Other strong invocations to consider
Pact of the Tome for more Cantrips and some Rituals you can change when you summon your book. This can be used as a spellcasting focus too. It can be hard to capitalize on the ritual spells, but you would have access to every Cantrip and 1st level Ritual. You can cast the 1st level spells normally or as rituals. Get a familiar and then swap out the spell. Ceremony to marry your party members to each other for that +2 AC for 7 days. Some others are situationally useful. For Cantrips, you have Toll the Dead, Sword Burst, Vicious Mockery, etc. With 5 choices, 3 of which can be changed on the fly, you have a lot of options and Cantrips power up on Character Level, not Class Level.
Archfey/Warlock have some useful spells. Eldritch Blast can target multiple enemies so you can use it to target one that is hiding to heal and the currently active target or you can focus all the beams on one target.
Just to piggyback on this, if one of your DM's go-to moves in combat is to have enemies hide (either to snipe with advantage or heal up), strongly consider swapping Warcaster out for Spell Sniper, which gets you (in the 5e24 version)
Increased Range. When you cast a spell that has a range of at least 10 feet and requires you to make an attack roll, you can increase the spell’s range by 60 feet.
Also
Ceremony to marry your party members to each other for that +2 AC for 7 days.
If you do this, the absolute cheesiest of cheesy moves, you deserve to have your DM allow your enemies to make death saves. And also be married to each other and getting +2 to their AC
Unless you're RPing your party as some sort of polycule, in which case, have fun!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Have you considered Arcane Trickster? Rogue has tons of maneuverability, and if your DM is giving enemies lots of places to hide, why not exploit that to your own advantage as a rogue? You can supplement your limited spellcasting with feats, or by taking two or three levels of Warlock at 4th & 5th level. True Strike + Sneak Attack + Spellfire Adept is going to give you the most bang for your buck at low levels.
Alternatively Valor Bard is great if you want to be more of a support gish, but with lots of verticality I'd suggest going for a ranged build here with a bow + sharpshooter because your maneuverability options are limited. Your BA is either Healing Word of Bardic Inspiration, or pick up something like Shield of Faith with Cleric Magic Initiate.
If you really really want to be melee, then I think ArchFey Warlock is basically your only option because with verticality at low levels your only way to ensure you can get into melee is with Misty Step and ArchFey gets the most Misty Step the earliest of any class.
Though to be perfectly honest, if you are playing 2 rounds of combat in 6 hours of game play, I'd strongly urge you to think about what your character brings to those non-combat moments and try to find a way to enjoy the non-combat time more.
I would note that most of the problems here do not seem to be 'gish' problems, and thus trying to build a better gish won't help. Looking at the list of issues
Too much verticality. This is not a gish problem, it's a melee character problem. Playing melee characters in 5e kind of sucks, unless the DM goes out of their way to make sure that there are opportunities for melee to shine. Unfortunately, tools like talespire heavily encourage situations that suck for melee.
Combat is rarer than I like. Many gish builds are actually decent outside of combat, but that doesn't help if you don't like the non-combat stuff.
Slow Leveling. Another personal preference thing.
Slow Combat. This is actually the same problem as #1 -- your DM is running combat in ways that suck for melee.
DM Doesn't really care about somatic components. This one is easy to fix: don't take war caster.
So, you should probably either quit the game, or build a character who's more suited to what the game actually is. A minimum requirement on the latter is probably turning strength into a dump stat.
Yeah, I 've contemplated going sorlock actually, realizing that quickened spells might work out better since we have less combats in a day, meaning I might get more frequent longrests for sorce points!
Great points - it's not a campaign suited for the style of play I wanted. I've decided to go Sorlock. Since there's less combats between long rests, I think the sorcery points will actually work out here, and worst case, I have decent casting to at least enjoy the encounters where I can't make it into melee.
Truth is, DM is a friend, and several other friends from college - so there's a little more reason to try and stick it out some way. But if the changes I've gone through don't feel fun, I do think bailing out is my next option. I'm remaining positive though. I basically had to sacrifice the full melee and go sorlock - but, I think the few combats per day will work out for the sorcepoint recovery.
If you have to stay human and want to be a Gish, I would 100% consider this build:
ASI numbers (can redistribute): 18/16/16/8/8/8… I would swap strength and wisdom.
Ranger 1 - This gives you a full spellcast level, and access to unique ranger combat spells, and especially Hunter’s Strike. It also gives you weapon specializations. Fight with either archery or finesse melee, your choice. You also get armor - yay! Fight with two nick weapons if you want.
Sea Druid X - Wrath of the Sea gives you the best bonus action attack in the game (imo). You’ll have the full druid spell list with some upcast slots on odd levels, and more cantrip options than a cleric.
For feats pick whatever you like. Since the DM is light on the combat encounters I would probably take skilled twice and make the Role Play more fun.
Both Ranger and Druid are flexible so you are very adaptable with this build.
Since you are a DM I won’t explain everything, druids are pretty straight forward.
I had made a Fighter/Warlock dual wielding Gish character for a virtual dnd campaign, and I've realized it's not cutting it due to several factors:
1.Too much verticality: The DM is using a 3d program called Talespire, and it takes me forever to get into melee range sometimes because of verticality.
2. Combat is rarer than I'd like: I'd say one combat encounter every 4-6 hours of campaign time, maybe it'll pick up, but I don't want to have a clunky build that only gets to fully shine in some scenarios or higher levels. Spaced out combats also mean the short rest benefit of a warlock is way less impactful.
3. Slow leveling?: This one might be just a personal preference - when I DM, I tend to level up my players pretty quickly. This campaign however we've been at level 3 for 16 hours of game time, going on to 20, and I realize that level 5 may be quite some time away. (I understand that this may be a more average pace than some -> but for 2 hour sessions once a week, I'm itching for mid-levels!) So, I need a build that is more functional at level 4.
4. Slow Combat: The DM has enemies running around the board hiding, making death saving throws, and rolling for all attacks live -> and with all the verticality and waiting on allies, combat can really take some time. I want a build that can be quick enough to get into the action sooner and catch up to cowardly enemies. (My old build would just fire a cantrip for the majority of combat as stuff died before he even made it to melee).
5. DM Doesn't really care about somatic components: I've not really worried about if my hands are busy or not, and so Warcaster has minor necessity.
-----
My Desires:
1. Sword and Sorcery: I don't want to just cast a spell and maybe hit with a sword, or just hit and cast only something like a smite. I'd like to do something like misty step, then attack, or healing word and strike, etc.
2. Shield OR Dual-Wield: I've done the GWM build before, I'm kind of tired with it - I'd like a strong build with either "sword and shield" or two-weapons.
3. Utilizes the full action economy: Reaction, action/two attacks, bonus action, movement - I'd like to use my full economy consistently. (Especially since I only get a couple of turns during a combat, I'd like them to feel impactful and fulfilling.)
4. Decent at lvl 4, awesome at lvl 5: I don't know if I'll make it past level 5 with this campaign, so I'd like the build to be enjoyable within the constraints I have.
-----
Things that have to stay:
----
My Build ideas: (Lvl 3- soon to be lvl 4)
1. Bladesigner:
-Though/Alert -> Shadowblade
-lvl 4 feat: Dual-wielder
-Pros: Durable, plenty of utility and spells, and fast
-Cons: Dual wielding is a little rough until maybe level 7 if I dip into rogue/fighter for Nick weapon mastery OR go fighter at lvl 1 (Which means I have to wait until level 7 for cantrip extra attack, which I may never get to, idk).
2.Pact Lock:
-Wizard initiate/Lucky
-Dao Genie subclass OR Hexblade for shield/Armor, Agonizing Blast (True Strike)/Eldritch Mind/Pact of Tome
-Shadowblade (If dm allows, true strike with it-otherwise go shillelagh from pact of tome)/misty step
-lvl 4 Feat: Spellfire Adept OR Feytouched
-lvl 5: Thirsting blade, Improved pact of the blade, Replace agonizing blast w/pact of the blade --> go shillelagh over shadowblade
Pros: Feels diverse.
Cons: SO much investment just to get a gish together, and since combat is so spaced out, I feel it's rare the short rests even matter -> Long rests are pretty frequent between combats, so warlock is running out of resources fast. Also, pretty squishy
3.Fighter-Lock v.2:
-Tough/Wizard Initiate
-Shield + Dueling + Shillelagh
-Agonizing Blast (True Strike)/Pact of the Chain (quasit for help)/Pact of Tome (Shillelagh)
-Lvl 4: Dao Genie OR Archfey
-lvl 5: Spellfire Adept
-lvl 6: Thirsting blade/Improved Blade/Swap agonizing blast for pact of blade.
Pros: More durable than build 1, and a lot less clunky
Cons: Slower, and it won't be until level 6 that I get extra attack -> though shillelagh and true strike scaling will help.
4.Eldritch Knight:
-Spellfire Spark/Druid Initiate
-Two-weapon fighting + Shillelagh club and scimitar
-lvl 4: Dual-wielder
-lvl 7: Shadowblade + Shillelagh
Pros: A cool fighter, and get's the dual-wielding thing down. Uses all my resources.
Cons: Takes until lvl 7 to get the full things I want, and spellfire spark might be a dud here late game (it's just to let me have the spell+attack I wanted), ---> takes forever to get second level spells for shadowblade.
The problems you describe will not be solved by a different character concept. You seem to have a different playstyle than the DM. This is really a session 0 problem.
Slow combat can be solved by doing MORE damage!
I’d personally be a fan of Thief Rogue 3 / Bladesinger X so that you have Second Story Work (climb speed) AND casting Scrolls with Bonus Actions.
Use True Strike and AOE
Yes, I agree that the DM and I are very different in how we look at the game for sure. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do there - other than he's allowed me to pay gold to respec everything except my race basically. So, I'm trying to find something I'll enjoy that fits within the way he runs the game.
That does sound fun haha
Especially when you use Calligraphers/Woodwork Tools and Arcana to make Fireball Scrolls/Wand and get to Fireball twice in a turn!
Well, what you can do is find another game. This one clearly doesn’t match the kind of game you want. Changing your character to fit might help a little, but it will do nothing for the underlying issue. Eventually you, the DM, the rest of the party, or some combination of those, will get frustrated and angry and it won’t be fun for anyone.
Bow out now, gracefully, and find a different group before it gets hostile and miserable.
Say what now? Sounds like you just have a very adversarial DM
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Idk, I think the expectations weren't very clear before we started. In hindsight, there's different ways I would have approached things if I understood better.
Astral Elf or something else that telepo--
-- Dang it.
Okay, still, maneuverability is one issue with your current character. You can solve that with a focus on distance or by making your character more maneuverable.
Straight Eldritch Knight and Bladesinger Wizard will probably be the easiest and you don't have to worry about delaying anything for multiclassing.
Consider Archfey Warlock.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Just to piggyback on this, if one of your DM's go-to moves in combat is to have enemies hide (either to snipe with advantage or heal up), strongly consider swapping Warcaster out for Spell Sniper, which gets you (in the 5e24 version)
Also
If you do this, the absolute cheesiest of cheesy moves, you deserve to have your DM allow your enemies to make death saves. And also be married to each other and getting +2 to their AC
Unless you're RPing your party as some sort of polycule, in which case, have fun!
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
PIPA - Planar Interception/Protection Aeormaton, warforged bodyguard and ex-wizard hunter (Warrior of the Elements monk/Cartographer artificer)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Have you considered Arcane Trickster? Rogue has tons of maneuverability, and if your DM is giving enemies lots of places to hide, why not exploit that to your own advantage as a rogue? You can supplement your limited spellcasting with feats, or by taking two or three levels of Warlock at 4th & 5th level. True Strike + Sneak Attack + Spellfire Adept is going to give you the most bang for your buck at low levels.
Alternatively Valor Bard is great if you want to be more of a support gish, but with lots of verticality I'd suggest going for a ranged build here with a bow + sharpshooter because your maneuverability options are limited. Your BA is either Healing Word of Bardic Inspiration, or pick up something like Shield of Faith with Cleric Magic Initiate.
If you really really want to be melee, then I think ArchFey Warlock is basically your only option because with verticality at low levels your only way to ensure you can get into melee is with Misty Step and ArchFey gets the most Misty Step the earliest of any class.
Though to be perfectly honest, if you are playing 2 rounds of combat in 6 hours of game play, I'd strongly urge you to think about what your character brings to those non-combat moments and try to find a way to enjoy the non-combat time more.
I would note that most of the problems here do not seem to be 'gish' problems, and thus trying to build a better gish won't help. Looking at the list of issues
So, you should probably either quit the game, or build a character who's more suited to what the game actually is. A minimum requirement on the latter is probably turning strength into a dump stat.
There are lots of other DMs out there.
Great looking build! thanks!
lol that's funny XD Marrying everyone!
Yeah, I 've contemplated going sorlock actually, realizing that quickened spells might work out better since we have less combats in a day, meaning I might get more frequent longrests for sorce points!
Great points - it's not a campaign suited for the style of play I wanted. I've decided to go Sorlock. Since there's less combats between long rests, I think the sorcery points will actually work out here, and worst case, I have decent casting to at least enjoy the encounters where I can't make it into melee.
Truth is, DM is a friend, and several other friends from college - so there's a little more reason to try and stick it out some way. But if the changes I've gone through don't feel fun, I do think bailing out is my next option. I'm remaining positive though. I basically had to sacrifice the full melee and go sorlock - but, I think the few combats per day will work out for the sorcepoint recovery.
If you have to stay human and want to be a Gish, I would 100% consider this build:
Ranger 1 - This gives you a full spellcast level, and access to unique ranger combat spells, and especially Hunter’s Strike. It also gives you weapon specializations. Fight with either archery or finesse melee, your choice. You also get armor - yay! Fight with two nick weapons if you want.
Sea Druid X - Wrath of the Sea gives you the best bonus action attack in the game (imo). You’ll have the full druid spell list with some upcast slots on odd levels, and more cantrip options than a cleric.
For feats pick whatever you like. Since the DM is light on the combat encounters I would probably take skilled twice and make the Role Play more fun.
Both Ranger and Druid are flexible so you are very adaptable with this build.
Since you are a DM I won’t explain everything, druids are pretty straight forward.