The subclass looks really impoverished compared to the other subclasses of fighter. Is that true or are it’s features deceptively awesome? Any tips or strategies for optimizing this class of fighter besides be a hill dwarf?
The subclass looks really impoverished compared to the other subclasses of fighter. Is that true or are it’s features deceptively awesome? Any tips or strategies for optimizing this class of fighter besides be a hill dwarf?
See, I don't get that... The class gets a lot of passive bonuses, but that means everything they do will be a better version of that thing... Other fighters get the attack action. Champion fighter gets an attack action that is more likely to produce a critical hit than, say, a Battlemaster. Other fighters get the jump action. Champion fighter gets a jump action that allows more movement than a Cavalier's jump. I'd argue that the simplicity isn't a bad thing. Champion can arguably make better use of items since they don't have to worry about setting up maneuvers. To optimize, make sure you attack as often as possible. Also, use resilient to gain proficiency in some mental save--probably WIS.
The Chanpion fighter is a great subclass for new players since most of its features are passive so it lets them focus on fundamentals. If you're a more experienced player wanting to try it out, I would try one of two options:
1. Lean into the simplicity. Be a hero, have a very earnest personality, be Captain America, enthusiastically do good deeds and bond with your team mates, and have fun playing a simple-yet-persistent fictional character archetype, and try to play it without irony or cynicism. Could be refreshing.
2. Ad-on's baybeeeee! Fighters get lots of ASI's, burn em all on feats! Construct a new sub-sub-class as you see fit with feats, magic items, racial traits, etc. Multiclass here and there to add dips from other classes to fully take advantage of the passive Champ benefits (adding sneak attack to the improved critical range would be powerful, for example) and make your Champion fighter into something new, unique, and your own.
I wasn’t seeing the points you made, which is why I asked. It seems the that the other subclasses get magic and maneuvers and such that champs don’t, and I was trying to see the benefits of the champ. Surely the game designers wouldn’t create an inherently nerfed subclass, right?
Great weapons can’t be used for sneak attack, right?
Now that you mentioned multiclassing, I could see starting as a champ for three levels, then taking some rogue levels could make for a passable Conan character.
Great weapons can’t be used for sneak attack, right?
Now that you mentioned multiclassing, I could see starting as a champ for three levels, then taking some rogue levels could make for a passable Conan character.
Champion multiclasses are pretty popular among theorycrafters mostly for crit-fishing rogues or paladins. Three levels gets you a bit of self healing, action surge and an expanded crit range. Then you crit on a sneak attack or smite and roll a huge pile of dice.
But, as Charlestheplant said, the subclass is one that’s mostly for new players (at least, it was designed that way, imo). Through all editions, fighters have been kind of the default character for new players, and champion continues that tradition.
I wasn’t seeing the points you made, which is why I asked. It seems the that the other subclasses get magic and maneuvers and such that champs don’t, and I was trying to see the benefits of the champ. Surely the game designers wouldn’t create an inherently nerfed subclass, right?
That's kind of the interesting thing about Champion... they're extremely simple compared to other Fighter subclasses, but when it comes to outputting damage on the battlefield, they match, if not exceed, some of the other subclasses. It's a legit good subclass. It's just really, really simple. There aren't as many tactical options as other subclasses get, and they certainly don't get a lot that they can do outside of combat. Although I think it does well at what the subclass is best known for (being a simple class that's extremely beginner friendly), but the fact that it's beginner friendly doesn't actually make it mechanically inferior. If anything, it's at least better than Purple Dragon Knight or Arcane Archer.
As a few have said, the subclass is more about things just being a little better than the base. It allows newer players to focus more on the game's mechanics, without throwing a myriad of options at them. The subclass does the basics in combat and each is a tad better than the basic. Little better chance for a crit, little longer/higher leaps and so forth. All just part of the package. I see, as someone else mentioned, it as a great base for multiclassing. If you go to 6, you get the action surge, the self-heal, 2 attacks and 2 ASI chances. If you have an idea of what you want to multi to, you can build that stat, as a good fighter really only needs Son +Str or Dex to be effective. Multiclassing can really open an interesting and, due to the Fighter base, viable, character. Go Bladesinger for a boost to AC and movement Go any caster to add in some magic to you solid melee Bard or Rogue to fill in as a skill monkey/utility role Cleric to add buffs/debuffs/healing and more Choose your poison
Champion fighter essentially, as a base for a MC has very little, if anything, that will conflict with a new classes abilities, due to most of your best stuff being passive. My fave for MC and in our campaign, the fighter is a Champion and we're level 13. He is a force to be reckoned with when he wades in with the greatsword.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Great weapons can’t be used for sneak attack, right?
Now that you mentioned multiclassing, I could see starting as a champ for three levels, then taking some rogue levels could make for a passable Conan character.
Champion multiclasses are pretty popular among theorycrafters mostly for crit-fishing rogues or paladins. Three levels gets you a bit of self healing, action surge and an expanded crit range. Then you crit on a sneak attack or smite and roll a huge pile of dice.
But, as Charlestheplant said, the subclass is one that’s mostly for new players (at least, it was designed that way, imo). Through all editions, fighters have been kind of the default character for new players, and champion continues that tradition.
Also; you can easily be a DEX based fighter. Almost better, since you get increased AC, to hit, and DEX save. Easy. Wanna sneak attack with a rapier? Do it up!
Assuming you aren't looking to multiclass then Champion Fighter is simply all about getting advantage and multiple attacks to maximize your chance for a critical hit. Grab GWM (the BA attack on a crit is awesome synergy!) and as a race take Loxodon or Simic Hybrid so you can grapple/shove while using a two-handed weapon. Also consider 2 levels of Barbarian for Reckless attack.
Champion is definitely a crit-fishing type subclass. I'd advise splashing barbarian to get access to reckless attack or investing in items or feats that allow you to have more chances to roll attacks with advantage. I see a lot of champions in one-shots utilize Blood Fury Tattoo as an example.
Fighters (and Wizards, to a lesser extent) have a reputation of being "basic," or "boring," and the Champion subclass is the epitome of that stereotype. And that's partially true; the Champion Fighter has very simple, low-description features. The base class has no "definitive mechanic" (Rogue's Sneak Attack, Barbarian's Rage, etc.), and the Champion subclass's features consist primarily of simple stat buffs. It isn't too weak, but it's easy to see why people often refer to it as boring, and turn to Battlemaster as the "default" fighter.
That said, I firmly believe that the best players can do the most with the least. Brand new players often create Human Fighters as an expression of their idealistic image of what an adventurer is, and I wish that players were better at holding onto that innocent idea. Once a player gets a certain amount of experience, in general, they begin to view the Human Fighter (and Humans and Fighters as in general) as boring and uninteresting. They make complex and varied characters in an attempt to be interesting or unique, often to such an extent that their characters become confusing and overly complicated. I would know, I'm VERY guilty of this. These players lose sight of the original goal of the game: to tell a story. The rules exist to support and direct the story, not the other way around. If you want to play [ insert popular fighting game here ], just go play [ insert popular fighting game here ]. But D&D's entire goal is to be a medium for improvisational story telling. I believe that the greatest players are able to make mechanical-uninteresting characters have deep, complex, and engaging personalities.
Is the Champion weak? No, not really. It's not Tasha's Cauldron of Everything level, but it's still capable. Is it simple? Definitely. Can it, like any other class and subclass, be the basis for an incredible, well-written character? Absolutely.
For people who just want to try D&D but don't want to make any effort to learn what their PC can do, Champion is great!
It's also great for a small adventure for new players. But for folks who really get into the game, Champion can get boring. Not for everyone, but for many. There's not a lot to do on your turn but Attack. Battle Master maneuvers give very nice options. Other subclasses have magic and what not. For some folks, Champion is great. It's great for my wife because she joins us to be social, but she wants to keep the mechanics as simple as possible.
Champion is not a nerfed subclass by any means. But it doesn't always take people on the D&D journey they're looking for. Whether it's good, great, or lousy depends entirely on the player.
Champion fighter doesn't really become competitive with other fighter subclasses until level 15 (when it's getting an average of 0.3 criticals per attack action and has enough ASIs to really take advantage of crit-oriented feats and might well have a weapon with extra damage dice that can crit). At lower level, a battle master will almost always be able to do the same things as the champion, only better.
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The subclass looks really impoverished compared to the other subclasses of fighter. Is that true or are it’s features deceptively awesome? Any tips or strategies for optimizing this class of fighter besides be a hill dwarf?
See, I don't get that... The class gets a lot of passive bonuses, but that means everything they do will be a better version of that thing... Other fighters get the attack action. Champion fighter gets an attack action that is more likely to produce a critical hit than, say, a Battlemaster. Other fighters get the jump action. Champion fighter gets a jump action that allows more movement than a Cavalier's jump. I'd argue that the simplicity isn't a bad thing. Champion can arguably make better use of items since they don't have to worry about setting up maneuvers. To optimize, make sure you attack as often as possible. Also, use resilient to gain proficiency in some mental save--probably WIS.
The Chanpion fighter is a great subclass for new players since most of its features are passive so it lets them focus on fundamentals. If you're a more experienced player wanting to try it out, I would try one of two options:
1. Lean into the simplicity. Be a hero, have a very earnest personality, be Captain America, enthusiastically do good deeds and bond with your team mates, and have fun playing a simple-yet-persistent fictional character archetype, and try to play it without irony or cynicism. Could be refreshing.
2. Ad-on's baybeeeee! Fighters get lots of ASI's, burn em all on feats! Construct a new sub-sub-class as you see fit with feats, magic items, racial traits, etc. Multiclass here and there to add dips from other classes to fully take advantage of the passive Champ benefits (adding sneak attack to the improved critical range would be powerful, for example) and make your Champion fighter into something new, unique, and your own.
I wasn’t seeing the points you made, which is why I asked. It seems the that the other subclasses get magic and maneuvers and such that champs don’t, and I was trying to see the benefits of the champ. Surely the game designers wouldn’t create an inherently nerfed subclass, right?
Great weapons can’t be used for sneak attack, right?
Now that you mentioned multiclassing, I could see starting as a champ for three levels, then taking some rogue levels could make for a passable Conan character.
Champion multiclasses are pretty popular among theorycrafters mostly for crit-fishing rogues or paladins. Three levels gets you a bit of self healing, action surge and an expanded crit range. Then you crit on a sneak attack or smite and roll a huge pile of dice.
But, as Charlestheplant said, the subclass is one that’s mostly for new players (at least, it was designed that way, imo). Through all editions, fighters have been kind of the default character for new players, and champion continues that tradition.
That's kind of the interesting thing about Champion... they're extremely simple compared to other Fighter subclasses, but when it comes to outputting damage on the battlefield, they match, if not exceed, some of the other subclasses. It's a legit good subclass. It's just really, really simple. There aren't as many tactical options as other subclasses get, and they certainly don't get a lot that they can do outside of combat. Although I think it does well at what the subclass is best known for (being a simple class that's extremely beginner friendly), but the fact that it's beginner friendly doesn't actually make it mechanically inferior. If anything, it's at least better than Purple Dragon Knight or Arcane Archer.
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As a few have said, the subclass is more about things just being a little better than the base. It allows newer players to focus more on the game's mechanics, without throwing a myriad of options at them. The subclass does the basics in combat and each is a tad better than the basic. Little better chance for a crit, little longer/higher leaps and so forth. All just part of the package. I see, as someone else mentioned, it as a great base for multiclassing. If you go to 6, you get the action surge, the self-heal, 2 attacks and 2 ASI chances. If you have an idea of what you want to multi to, you can build that stat, as a good fighter really only needs Son +Str or Dex to be effective. Multiclassing can really open an interesting and, due to the Fighter base, viable, character.
Go Bladesinger for a boost to AC and movement
Go any caster to add in some magic to you solid melee
Bard or Rogue to fill in as a skill monkey/utility role
Cleric to add buffs/debuffs/healing and more
Choose your poison
Champion fighter essentially, as a base for a MC has very little, if anything, that will conflict with a new classes abilities, due to most of your best stuff being passive. My fave for MC and in our campaign, the fighter is a Champion and we're level 13. He is a force to be reckoned with when he wades in with the greatsword.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Also; you can easily be a DEX based fighter. Almost better, since you get increased AC, to hit, and DEX save. Easy. Wanna sneak attack with a rapier? Do it up!
Assuming you aren't looking to multiclass then Champion Fighter is simply all about getting advantage and multiple attacks to maximize your chance for a critical hit. Grab GWM (the BA attack on a crit is awesome synergy!) and as a race take Loxodon or Simic Hybrid so you can grapple/shove while using a two-handed weapon. Also consider 2 levels of Barbarian for Reckless attack.
Champion is definitely a crit-fishing type subclass. I'd advise splashing barbarian to get access to reckless attack or investing in items or feats that allow you to have more chances to roll attacks with advantage. I see a lot of champions in one-shots utilize Blood Fury Tattoo as an example.
Fighters (and Wizards, to a lesser extent) have a reputation of being "basic," or "boring," and the Champion subclass is the epitome of that stereotype. And that's partially true; the Champion Fighter has very simple, low-description features. The base class has no "definitive mechanic" (Rogue's Sneak Attack, Barbarian's Rage, etc.), and the Champion subclass's features consist primarily of simple stat buffs. It isn't too weak, but it's easy to see why people often refer to it as boring, and turn to Battlemaster as the "default" fighter.
That said, I firmly believe that the best players can do the most with the least. Brand new players often create Human Fighters as an expression of their idealistic image of what an adventurer is, and I wish that players were better at holding onto that innocent idea. Once a player gets a certain amount of experience, in general, they begin to view the Human Fighter (and Humans and Fighters as in general) as boring and uninteresting. They make complex and varied characters in an attempt to be interesting or unique, often to such an extent that their characters become confusing and overly complicated. I would know, I'm VERY guilty of this. These players lose sight of the original goal of the game: to tell a story. The rules exist to support and direct the story, not the other way around. If you want to play [ insert popular fighting game here ], just go play [ insert popular fighting game here ]. But D&D's entire goal is to be a medium for improvisational story telling. I believe that the greatest players are able to make mechanical-uninteresting characters have deep, complex, and engaging personalities.
Is the Champion weak? No, not really. It's not Tasha's Cauldron of Everything level, but it's still capable. Is it simple? Definitely. Can it, like any other class and subclass, be the basis for an incredible, well-written character? Absolutely.
For people who just want to try D&D but don't want to make any effort to learn what their PC can do, Champion is great!
It's also great for a small adventure for new players. But for folks who really get into the game, Champion can get boring. Not for everyone, but for many. There's not a lot to do on your turn but Attack. Battle Master maneuvers give very nice options. Other subclasses have magic and what not. For some folks, Champion is great. It's great for my wife because she joins us to be social, but she wants to keep the mechanics as simple as possible.
Champion is not a nerfed subclass by any means. But it doesn't always take people on the D&D journey they're looking for. Whether it's good, great, or lousy depends entirely on the player.
I can see multiclassing from whatever and taking three levels of fighter and choosing champion to be a great idea.
I play a swashbuckling rogue, and I can see how awesome it would be to crit on a 19, and throw a handful of d6 for sneak attack damage.
Champion fighter doesn't really become competitive with other fighter subclasses until level 15 (when it's getting an average of 0.3 criticals per attack action and has enough ASIs to really take advantage of crit-oriented feats and might well have a weapon with extra damage dice that can crit). At lower level, a battle master will almost always be able to do the same things as the champion, only better.