I noticed the new rules changed this to intelligence as the minor stat - what is the reason? Frankly, I feel this doesn't play as well, in particular for order of the Lycan where Wisdom makes more sense. Also, changing the saves from Strength / Wisdom to Dex / Intelligence? Doesn't grab the feel for me. Is this set in stone or might it still change?
Author's Note: This was my first homebrew class waaaaay back before DMs Guild first started, and I had a LOT to learn. Originally spawned as a handful of variant abilities I designed for Vin Diesel guesting on my D&Diesel one-shot to promote his film "The Last Witch Hunter" (in which I was given no context for his character other than the trailer), the internet was loudly requesting me to release what class he played. Needing to heavily expand upon those small features, I cobbled together my first attempt at this class with meager design experience and tossed it to the internet with a wince. A handful of years of iterations, and incredible amounts of very well-thought out feedback from the web later, I've learned so much more about fun design and balance... and I wanted to take a crack at redesigning this class from the ground up.
Deep consideration brought me to shift the secondary ability score focus from Wisdom to Intelligence, as the hemocraft magic was more arcane in nature, and there was little representation for an Intelligence-based martial class. Along with this came many changes to improve the ease of tracking abilities like the Crimson Rite, while adding some new features and utility to the class and its Orders (including the Brand of Castigation). Massive rebalancing has been applied throughout the class, and each Order eventually receives its own unique Blood Curse, as well as a unique modification to their Brand.
While the first release of any new design will have its problems, I feel much more confident about the direction of this class and its place in my games and world. I hope you enjoy this newly fashioned, improved release of the Blood Hunter!
All the other changes make sense....I still feel that wisdom fits better for a "Hunter". The nature of the magic doesn't matter as except for one class they really aren't casters....
I like Intelligence for them a lot better than Wisdom. Not only is Mercer absolutely right when he cites an appalling lack of INT-focused martial classes (there are exactly zero if you discount subclasses and look for base class alone), but Blood Hunters are less "Rangers with more awful prey" and more "Van Helsing, the character class". They're masters of esoteric lore and advanced combat techniques more than masters of the natural world; their whole schtick is "know thy enemy". Their ability to switch up elemental damage, their Psychometry, and many of their other class features reward knowing your target's weaknesses and vulnerabilities, the best way to deal with them.
Now I get that the underlying complaint in a lot of cases is "but Intelligence sucks! I wanna take Wisdom so I can get a good WIS save and good Perception and stuff, Intelligence doesn't do anything for me!" Which...mostly just shows how flawed the underlying design of 5e is, that Intelligence is considered a completely null-value stat. But man, these things click so much better for me as an Intelligence class over a Wisdom class.
I like the theme of Intelligence instead of Wisdom. You have to question the wisdom of someone who thinks to themselves "I'm gonna give myself superpowers by cutting myself!" And like Yurei said, it gives you knowledge of about these unnatural creatures you're fighting. Statistically, it makes you better at fighting aberrations, who tend to require Intelligence saves. Finally, it makes you more distinct from the Ranger.
I will concede that it does hurt the Order of the Lycan a bit, but that's why you try to put some distance between you and them when a fight breaks out.
Well, to me Wisdom seemed to fit very well, due to it being somewhat connected to willpower, strength of will, your ability to resist charms and see through lies, which seems like totally a thing, along with the Lycan Blood Hunter being so reliant on Willpower to not try to murder the random NPC standing next to it (and with the new version not requiring you to take damage in order to bloodlust, just being low-HP even out of combat is horrible for it).
At least, the Saving Throws should've been Intelligence/Wisdom (instead of DEX) - which are the same Saving Throws the Wizard gets, funny enough.
I mean, tbh, wisdom doesn't make sense too much for it, when considering the blood magic aspect of everything, and how you must literally learn more about your prey to accomplish anything.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
Excellent response. With even just a 12 Wisdom, you are beating that DC 65% of the time and as you mentioned it only applies when at less than half health. Seems very reasonable. If folks are that concerned then at level 4 they can take the Resilient Feat and give themselves proficiency with Wisdom saves.
Ironically I am on the opposite end of this, I am considering making my next character take advantage of the auto-fails while raging to create essentially the D&D equivalent to the incredible Hulk lol. I assume Lycan transformation damage and rage damage would stack and with the rage damage mitigation, you could have an amazingly powerful melee fighter.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
Well, in the original PDF, the DC was 8 + BH level/3 and with the lack of Wisdom Saving Throw Proficiency the save would've gotten harder as you leveled up. However, in the DnDbeyond version (got changed somewhere between the original Charity version and the free one now), it's now a static DC 8 which is very reasonable and basically answers my complaints about it.
I could totally see leaving your Wisdom at 10 and just dealing with it now.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
Excellent response. With even just a 12 Wisdom, you are beating that DC 65% of the time and as you mentioned it only applies when at less than half health. Seems very reasonable. If folks are that concerned then at level 4 they can take the Resilient Feat and give themselves proficiency with Wisdom saves.
Ironically I am on the opposite end of this, I am considering making my next character take advantage of the auto-fails while raging to create essentially the D&D equivalent to the incredible Hulk lol. I assume Lycan transformation damage and rage damage would stack and with the rage damage mitigation, you could have an amazingly powerful melee fighter.
yep. barbarian 2+blood hunter lycan 18 for danger sense, reckless attack, unarmoured defense and rage on top of all that hybrid stuff would be brutal.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
Excellent response. With even just a 12 Wisdom, you are beating that DC 65% of the time and as you mentioned it only applies when at less than half health. Seems very reasonable. If folks are that concerned then at level 4 they can take the Resilient Feat and give themselves proficiency with Wisdom saves.
Ironically I am on the opposite end of this, I am considering making my next character take advantage of the auto-fails while raging to create essentially the D&D equivalent to the incredible Hulk lol. I assume Lycan transformation damage and rage damage would stack and with the rage damage mitigation, you could have an amazingly powerful melee fighter.
yep. barbarian 2+blood hunter lycan 18 for danger sense, reckless attack, unarmoured defense and rage on top of all that hybrid stuff would be brutal.
and intelligence...because...... It's playable either way...just feel the Wisdom fits a hunter better. Perception and Survival for tracking....wisdom...a hunter. Still finally a Lycan class for DND that works...
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
Excellent response. With even just a 12 Wisdom, you are beating that DC 65% of the time and as you mentioned it only applies when at less than half health. Seems very reasonable. If folks are that concerned then at level 4 they can take the Resilient Feat and give themselves proficiency with Wisdom saves.
Ironically I am on the opposite end of this, I am considering making my next character take advantage of the auto-fails while raging to create essentially the D&D equivalent to the incredible Hulk lol. I assume Lycan transformation damage and rage damage would stack and with the rage damage mitigation, you could have an amazingly powerful melee fighter.
yep. barbarian 2+blood hunter lycan 18 for danger sense, reckless attack, unarmoured defense and rage on top of all that hybrid stuff would be brutal.
and intelligence...because...... It's playable either way...just feel the Wisdom fits a hunter better. Perception and Survival for tracking....wisdom...a hunter. Still finally a Lycan class for DND that works...
Well you could use the variant and take expertise in perception and survival instead of danger sense at 2nd level barb. Then you if you're going for what Jayne mentioned, you could still fail your saves and be good at hunting stuff.
Thing is, the Lycan was the only one Wisdom worked for. Unless you're telling me that a guy who mixes bespoke mutagens and uses himself as a guinea pig can afford to dump intelligence...?
And the other two subclasses, respectively, are a person who needs to obliterate the undead without relying on a divine patron (which is to say, they gotta brainstorm real hard how to stab a ghost), and a person who abuses the hell out of a Warlock pact while minimizing the actual sacrifices they make for power... so basically an Eldritch Lawyer. I think Int works wonderfully as a main stat in those cases.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
Excellent response. With even just a 12 Wisdom, you are beating that DC 65% of the time and as you mentioned it only applies when at less than half health. Seems very reasonable. If folks are that concerned then at level 4 they can take the Resilient Feat and give themselves proficiency with Wisdom saves.
Ironically I am on the opposite end of this, I am considering making my next character take advantage of the auto-fails while raging to create essentially the D&D equivalent to the incredible Hulk lol. I assume Lycan transformation damage and rage damage would stack and with the rage damage mitigation, you could have an amazingly powerful melee fighter.
yep. barbarian 2+blood hunter lycan 18 for danger sense, reckless attack, unarmoured defense and rage on top of all that hybrid stuff would be brutal.
and intelligence...because...... It's playable either way...just feel the Wisdom fits a hunter better. Perception and Survival for tracking....wisdom...a hunter. Still finally a Lycan class for DND that works...
Yeah, I get the “hunter” argument because “Blood Hunter” but this Class is less about “hunting” in that sense, and more about “hunting” like Sam and Dean. Especially Sam in the Ruby days.
For me, I'm wondering why some of the changes to the blood curses and if there will be something of a change back or at least a revamping of some of the older ones. I do get the importance of some of them being a little subclass specific, but is their no way to revamp some of the older blood curses back a little bit and maybe change them up to be a little bit better.
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I noticed the new rules changed this to intelligence as the minor stat - what is the reason? Frankly, I feel this doesn't play as well, in particular for order of the Lycan where Wisdom makes more sense. Also, changing the saves from Strength / Wisdom to Dex / Intelligence? Doesn't grab the feel for me. Is this set in stone or might it still change?
Hi there,
the reason these changes happened is because the author of the Blood Hunter class, Matt Mercer, issued a new version.
Any feedback on the design of the class, or how it feels to play is best sent to him. 🙂
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If you're interested in the reasoning, Matt Mercer explains some of it in the product description on DMsGuild: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/301641/Blood-Hunter-Class-for-DD-5e-2020
(I've bolded the relevant paragraph.)
All the other changes make sense....I still feel that wisdom fits better for a "Hunter". The nature of the magic doesn't matter as except for one class they really aren't casters....
I like Intelligence for them a lot better than Wisdom. Not only is Mercer absolutely right when he cites an appalling lack of INT-focused martial classes (there are exactly zero if you discount subclasses and look for base class alone), but Blood Hunters are less "Rangers with more awful prey" and more "Van Helsing, the character class". They're masters of esoteric lore and advanced combat techniques more than masters of the natural world; their whole schtick is "know thy enemy". Their ability to switch up elemental damage, their Psychometry, and many of their other class features reward knowing your target's weaknesses and vulnerabilities, the best way to deal with them.
Now I get that the underlying complaint in a lot of cases is "but Intelligence sucks! I wanna take Wisdom so I can get a good WIS save and good Perception and stuff, Intelligence doesn't do anything for me!" Which...mostly just shows how flawed the underlying design of 5e is, that Intelligence is considered a completely null-value stat. But man, these things click so much better for me as an Intelligence class over a Wisdom class.
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I like the theme of Intelligence instead of Wisdom. You have to question the wisdom of someone who thinks to themselves "I'm gonna give myself superpowers by cutting myself!" And like Yurei said, it gives you knowledge of about these unnatural creatures you're fighting. Statistically, it makes you better at fighting aberrations, who tend to require Intelligence saves. Finally, it makes you more distinct from the Ranger.
I will concede that it does hurt the Order of the Lycan a bit, but that's why you try to put some distance between you and them when a fight breaks out.
Well, to me Wisdom seemed to fit very well, due to it being somewhat connected to willpower, strength of will, your ability to resist charms and see through lies, which seems like totally a thing, along with the Lycan Blood Hunter being so reliant on Willpower to not try to murder the random NPC standing next to it (and with the new version not requiring you to take damage in order to bloodlust, just being low-HP even out of combat is horrible for it).
At least, the Saving Throws should've been Intelligence/Wisdom (instead of DEX) - which are the same Saving Throws the Wizard gets, funny enough.
I mean, tbh, wisdom doesn't make sense too much for it, when considering the blood magic aspect of everything, and how you must literally learn more about your prey to accomplish anything.
if everyone would read the lycan again, you will see that it was also changed from "if you've taken any damage" to "if you start your turn with no more than half your hit points". Also, the DC is freaking 8. come on people. so the wisdom save won't be nearly as crucial to the class as it was and the other improvements more than make up for that. If you're playing a lycan, you probably aren't focused on the blood curses, so you can afford to have int. and wis. both be middle of the road. Or you could play it as it is intended and dump wisdom to focus on int. so your character is more of a jekyll/hyde type personality with little control when beasting out.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
Excellent response. With even just a 12 Wisdom, you are beating that DC 65% of the time and as you mentioned it only applies when at less than half health. Seems very reasonable. If folks are that concerned then at level 4 they can take the Resilient Feat and give themselves proficiency with Wisdom saves.
Ironically I am on the opposite end of this, I am considering making my next character take advantage of the auto-fails while raging to create essentially the D&D equivalent to the incredible Hulk lol. I assume Lycan transformation damage and rage damage would stack and with the rage damage mitigation, you could have an amazingly powerful melee fighter.
Well, in the original PDF, the DC was 8 + BH level/3 and with the lack of Wisdom Saving Throw Proficiency the save would've gotten harder as you leveled up.
However, in the DnDbeyond version (got changed somewhere between the original Charity version and the free one now), it's now a static DC 8 which is very reasonable and basically answers my complaints about it.
I could totally see leaving your Wisdom at 10 and just dealing with it now.
yep. barbarian 2+blood hunter lycan 18 for danger sense, reckless attack, unarmoured defense and rage on top of all that hybrid stuff would be brutal.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
and intelligence...because...... It's playable either way...just feel the Wisdom fits a hunter better. Perception and Survival for tracking....wisdom...a hunter. Still finally a Lycan class for DND that works...
Well you could use the variant and take expertise in perception and survival instead of danger sense at 2nd level barb. Then you if you're going for what Jayne mentioned, you could still fail your saves and be good at hunting stuff.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137390-weretouched-beasthide
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137424-weretouched-longtooth
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137431-weretouched-razorclaw
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137461-weretouched-swiftstride
https://www.dndbeyond.com/subraces/137646-weretouched-wildhunt
Thing is, the Lycan was the only one Wisdom worked for. Unless you're telling me that a guy who mixes bespoke mutagens and uses himself as a guinea pig can afford to dump intelligence...?
And the other two subclasses, respectively, are a person who needs to obliterate the undead without relying on a divine patron (which is to say, they gotta brainstorm real hard how to stab a ghost), and a person who abuses the hell out of a Warlock pact while minimizing the actual sacrifices they make for power... so basically an Eldritch Lawyer. I think Int works wonderfully as a main stat in those cases.
Yeah, I get the “hunter” argument because “Blood Hunter” but this Class is less about “hunting” in that sense, and more about “hunting” like Sam and Dean. Especially Sam in the Ruby days.
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For me, I'm wondering why some of the changes to the blood curses and if there will be something of a change back or at least a revamping of some of the older ones. I do get the importance of some of them being a little subclass specific, but is their no way to revamp some of the older blood curses back a little bit and maybe change them up to be a little bit better.