Thirsting Blade seems like a slightly underpowered Invocation as most martial classes get extra attack for free. To balance this, should Thirsting Blade allow for a cantrip to be cast as one of the attacks, similar to a Bladesinger's Extra Attack 6th level feature?
I don't feel like this would be game breaking, as Bladesingers are another non-martial gish subclass, and they can make a regular weapon attack and cast a cantrip like Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade.
Yeah, I was thinking specifically melee cantrips like Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade. Maybe tie it to your pact weapon still? Any cantrip that involves your pact weapon can be made instead of an attack? Maybe I can get my DM to houserule it.
Thirsting Blade seems like a slightly underpowered Invocation as most martial classes get extra attack for free. To balance this, should Thirsting Blade allow for a cantrip to be cast as one of the attacks, similar to a Bladesinger's Extra Attack 6th level feature?
I don't feel like this would be game breaking, as Bladesingers are another non-martial gish subclass, and they can make a regular weapon attack and cast a cantrip like Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade.
Thoughts?
Keep in mind the unless you're a Hexblade, Warlocks aren't martial classes. They have access to up to level 9 spells and your pact weapon serves as more of a reliable way to attack enemies within 5 feet and creating disadvantage on your ranged spell attacks.
Assuming you're CHA modifier is +5 and your DEX is a +3, you have a better chance of hitting an enemy as opposed to attempting an Eldritch Blast. In addition, let's say you have the Lifedrinker feat, the damage versus a Warlock that isn't pact of the blade is a lot (+3 DEX, +5 CHA and 1-8 rapier) after hitting twice for an average of 25 damage (18-32 damage). The damage as well as the chance to hit gets even better if you use a +1 or +2 weapon.
A different pact Warlock will do (+3 DEX +1-4 dagger) and only get one attack for an average of 5.5 damage (4-7 damage). So their realistic options are to a.) attack from disadvantage using Eldritch Blast and hope you hit once or twice (hitting 2 out of 3 would be 12-30 for an average of 21 damage) or burn a spell slot on say burning hands and do 6-36 damage for an average of 21 on a failed save or half on successful save.
Attacking with your pact weapon is by far the most cost efficient way to deal with minor threats that peel off to attack you in melee. Larger more powerful foes will still require you to escape, likely burning a spell slot on Misty Step.
For comparison's sake, a martial class at the same level will be 21-51 (36 damage) so while they'll always perform better, they don't have access to higher level spells and the same abilities to control the battle field.
Thirsting Blade seems like a slightly underpowered Invocation as most martial classes get extra attack for free. To balance this, should Thirsting Blade allow for a cantrip to be cast as one of the attacks, similar to a Bladesinger's Extra Attack 6th level feature?
I don't feel like this would be game breaking, as Bladesingers are another non-martial gish subclass, and they can make a regular weapon attack and cast a cantrip like Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade.
Thoughts?
Keep in mind the unless you're a Hexblade, Warlocks aren't martial classes. They have access to up to level 9 spells and your pact weapon serves as more of a reliable way to attack enemies within 5 feet and creating disadvantage on your ranged spell attacks.
Assuming you're CHA modifier is +5 and your DEX is a +3, you have a better chance of hitting an enemy as opposed to attempting an Eldritch Blast. In addition, let's say you have the Lifedrinker feat, the damage versus a Warlock that isn't pact of the blade is a lot (+3 DEX, +5 CHA and 1-8 rapier) after hitting twice for an average of 25 damage (18-32 damage). The damage as well as the chance to hit gets even better if you use a +1 or +2 weapon.
A different pact Warlock will do (+3 DEX +1-4 dagger) and only get one attack for an average of 5.5 damage (4-7 damage). So their realistic options are to a.) attack from disadvantage using Eldritch Blast and hope you hit once or twice (hitting 2 out of 3 would be 12-30 for an average of 21 damage) or burn a spell slot on say burning hands and do 6-36 damage for an average of 21 on a failed save or half on successful save.
Attacking with your pact weapon is by far the most cost efficient way to deal with minor threats that peel off to attack you in melee. Larger more powerful foes will still require you to escape, likely burning a spell slot on Misty Step.
For comparison's sake, a martial class at the same level will be 21-51 (36 damage) so while they'll always perform better, they don't have access to higher level spells and the same abilities to control the battle field.
I understand that the pact weapon is a good way of doling out damage, but a Wizards is also not a martial class. So why wouldn't the Bladesinger extra attack be relevant to the Pact of the Blade Warlock?
I was also considering only including Pact Weapon based cantrips (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, etc.). These would allow you to add your normal attack damage with the cantirp effects, so you're not limiting yourself in any way. I have a level 4 Hexlock Pact of the Blade who focuses almost exclusively on melee combat, so the added ability to cast a cantrip as part of my Thirsting Blade would be really beneficial when I hit 5.
Thirsting Blade seems like a slightly underpowered Invocation as most martial classes get extra attack for free. To balance this, should Thirsting Blade allow for a cantrip to be cast as one of the attacks, similar to a Bladesinger's Extra Attack 6th level feature?
I don't feel like this would be game breaking, as Bladesingers are another non-martial gish subclass, and they can make a regular weapon attack and cast a cantrip like Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade.
Thoughts?
Keep in mind the unless you're a Hexblade, Warlocks aren't martial classes. They have access to up to level 9 spells and your pact weapon serves as more of a reliable way to attack enemies within 5 feet and creating disadvantage on your ranged spell attacks.
Assuming you're CHA modifier is +5 and your DEX is a +3, you have a better chance of hitting an enemy as opposed to attempting an Eldritch Blast. In addition, let's say you have the Lifedrinker feat, the damage versus a Warlock that isn't pact of the blade is a lot (+3 DEX, +5 CHA and 1-8 rapier) after hitting twice for an average of 25 damage (18-32 damage). The damage as well as the chance to hit gets even better if you use a +1 or +2 weapon.
A different pact Warlock will do (+3 DEX +1-4 dagger) and only get one attack for an average of 5.5 damage (4-7 damage). So their realistic options are to a.) attack from disadvantage using Eldritch Blast and hope you hit once or twice (hitting 2 out of 3 would be 12-30 for an average of 21 damage) or burn a spell slot on say burning hands and do 6-36 damage for an average of 21 on a failed save or half on successful save.
Attacking with your pact weapon is by far the most cost efficient way to deal with minor threats that peel off to attack you in melee. Larger more powerful foes will still require you to escape, likely burning a spell slot on Misty Step.
For comparison's sake, a martial class at the same level will be 21-51 (36 damage) so while they'll always perform better, they don't have access to higher level spells and the same abilities to control the battle field.
I understand that the pact weapon is a good way of doling out damage, but a Wizards is also not a martial class. So why wouldn't the Bladesinger extra attack be relevant to the Pact of the Blade Warlock?
I was also considering only including Pact Weapon based cantrips (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, etc.). These would allow you to add your normal attack damage with the cantirp effects, so you're not limiting yourself in any way. I have a level 4 Hexlock Pact of the Blade who focuses almost exclusively on melee combat, so the added ability to cast a cantrip as part of my Thirsting Blade would be really beneficial when I hit 5.
With Bladesinger Wizards, you get an extra attack when you a.) use your melee attack and b.) that second attack can be another melee attack or a cantrip.
There's certainly a window of a few levels where it would be beneficial, and the value of either would depend on the situation, but once you get to level 12 and get lifedrinker wouldn't the additional 11-20 just be better in almost all situations?
And Wizards don't get to add their INT modifier to attack rolls at all and on damage rolls until level 14, so I would assume giving them access to GFB/BB *and* a melee attack on the same turn is balance
Just a quick look at the numbers with both using a longsword a level 6 Bladesinger can deal +3 DEX and 1-10 equaling 4-13 (av of 8.5) and add on green flame blade and you get 1-8 to the original target (so add 4.5) and 1-8 +5 INT to the second target equaling 6-13 (av 9.5). So we'll call this 22.5 until level 11. A HexBlades two melee attacks with a longsword are 6-15 twice so 12-30 which averages 21 damage. Keep in mind, a Hexblade has a +5 chance to hit with 20 charisma where a bladesinger has a +3 on their melee attack.
At level 11, the additional 1d8 on both rolls adds an average of 9 damage per round, but by level 12, The Hexblade Warlock is adding the +5 CHA from lifedrinker to both rolls for a total of 10 additional damage. So we're talking about a difference of 0.5 damage on average.
And none of this includes the various HexBlade features such as the damage equaling your profeciency bonus and additional crit chance from your HexBlade's curse, and your accursed specter. Or the fact that HexBlade's can access two handed weapons for additional damage, which combined with say Great Weapon Master is leathal.
That would be extremely overpowered. A Warlock does have a d8 hit die, so can stand up to more punishment than the Wizard, which hit die is only a d6. Wizard's also can't learn [spell]eldritch blast[spell]. That rule would allow a Warlock to destroy almost everything it comes across. If you are a Hexblade, Thirsting Blade is fine, especially when you can get Lifedrinker at level 15. If you still aren't happy, just pick up Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite. (Pick up Xanathar's Guide to Everything to build a good melee damage dealer Warlock).
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Erean Cabenrith a Variant Human Cleric (Light Domain)
Could be fun. The eldritch invocations to make melee strong vs to make eldritch blast strong would be really hard to juggle together, so I don't think it would necessarily even be broken.
Why is this even a thing. Thirsting Blade is not even close to underpowered. And it is free. Your invocations are free gains to your class. Your not using a resource or anything to gain this feature and if your Pact of the Blade or even more Importantly Hexblade this is a useful thing that is just handed to you. You can do as much or more damage under the right circumstance as any other Lock using EB.
Pact of the Blade can also synergize with various Feats for even more damage that EB just cannot do.
EB only can be paired with one Feat, It can make use of Parts of Spell Sniper and that's it. And other parts of it are just going to give you another cantrip that your probably not really going to use as a Warlock though there are some nice options.
Pact of the blade either through magical weapons or something like Improved Pact Weapon can through various builds be paired with things like GWM or Sharp Shooter for even more damage if they want to and that's your only measuring stick between them. Giving you more damage not only on the second attack provided by Thirsting blade but on the first as well. By level 12 Pact of the blade has the option to be making two attacks with a +20 damage modifier on each one with either the right melee or archery setups before even calculating in things like damage modifiers from potential magical weapons or the like.
What seems to be and what is can be two very different things and some things shouldn't be changed just based upon what they seem. Cynnamon was being kind, conservative, and very general when he gave his estimate of damage. Because it's an easy number pulled off by any pact of the blade warlock sustainably. But the truth is with the right factors in mind and the right build much higher is achievable.
Thirsting Blade really does not need the ability to do cantrips mixed in to make it a low key mimic of the Bladesinger subclass. The truth is the Bladesinger needs that ability to even try to keep up with something like the Warlock.
That would be extremely overpowered. A Warlock does have a d8 hit die, so can stand up to more punishment than the Wizard, which hit die is only a d6. Wizard's also can't learn [spell]eldritch blast[spell]. That rule would allow a Warlock to destroy almost everything it comes across. If you are a Hexblade, Thirsting Blade is fine, especially when you can get Lifedrinker at level 15. If you still aren't happy, just pick up Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite. (Pick up Xanathar's Guide to Everything to build a good melee damage dealer Warlock).
Would it though? One melee attack on top of an eldritch blast with all the bells and whistles is a lot, but it isn't broken. And getting all the basic invocations for melee and eldritch blast would be a lot to squeeze in.
And they conflict; when you use eldritch blast, you aren't benefiting from improved pact weapon.
And it would require investment; you have to go pact of the blade and give up utility invocations, and have to split dex/char or go hexblade (but even hexblade's curse clashes with eldritch blast).
That would be extremely overpowered. A Warlock does have a d8 hit die, so can stand up to more punishment than the Wizard, which hit die is only a d6. Wizard's also can't learn [spell]eldritch blast[spell]. That rule would allow a Warlock to destroy almost everything it comes across. If you are a Hexblade, Thirsting Blade is fine, especially when you can get Lifedrinker at level 15. If you still aren't happy, just pick up Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite. (Pick up Xanathar's Guide to Everything to build a good melee damage dealer Warlock).
Would it though? One melee attack on top of an eldritch blast with all the bells and whistles is a lot, but it isn't broken. And getting all the basic invocations for melee and eldritch blast would be a lot to squeeze in.
And they conflict; when you use eldritch blast, you aren't benefiting from improved pact weapon.
And it would require investment; you have to go pact of the blade and give up utility invocations, and have to split dex/char or go hexblade (but even hexblade's curse clashes with eldritch blast).
I agree with Kronzy. You can't be both a Blaster and do well with your Pact Weapon. Hexblade Pact of Blade takes a LOT of specialization to be viable (Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade) which MIGHT leave you an Invocation open for Agonizing Blast, but that's if you don't want any other utility (Fiendish Vigor [which is very good for a 1d8 front liner] or Devil's Sight). I even said that you could tie it directly to your Pact Weapon, meaning that the cantrip you used would have to involve making a melee attack with your pact weapon.
If you really think it's overpowered, you could balance it by requiring your bonus action to cast the cantrip/make the attack (and the only bonus action cantrip that Warlocks get is Magic Stone which doesn't synergize with any Warlock build anyway).
I think Thirsting Blade is fine, but if you want to upgrade it, I think copying Bladesinger Extra Attack is a poor choice - not least because the Bladesinger one is at L6, so it's harder to get than an L5 EA. I would upgrade it to, rather than letting one of your attacks be a cantrip, letting one of your attacks create the weapon.
I think Thirsting Blade is fine, but if you want to upgrade it, I think copying Bladesinger Extra Attack is a poor choice - not least because the Bladesinger one is at L6, so it's harder to get than an L5 EA. I would upgrade it to, rather than letting one of your attacks be a cantrip, letting one of your attacks create the weapon.
If you mean the summoning of the weapon be one of the attacks, I'd go even farther and just make summoning the weapon part of the Attack action, so that you still get both attacks that turn. I wouldn't allow you to use it as a thrown weapon for both attacks however, so I'd word it like this : "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you may also summon your Pact Weapon to your hand, dismissing it first if it is already summoned and not currently being held by you. You can only do this at the start of the Attack action, before any attacks are made." That way if you've been disarmed by the enemy before taking your turn you can *bamf* the weapon back to your hand and attack with it. Dismissing your Pack Weapon costs no action, but I'd want the wording to be explicit just because someone always has questions when things aren't blatantly spelled out. I would've just made summoning the weapon a Bonus Action just by default as part of Pact Of The Blade, to be honest. Yes, I know that would block things like Hex and Hexblade's Curse, but so be it. Costing an action always felt too expensive.
It really is. (And so is dipping 3 levels into Eldritch Knight just to get Weapon Bond.)
To be fair though, it's not like a martial class NEEDS to be able to summon his weapon in the first place; why make a one-level Hexblade dip even MORE attractive?
Thirsting Blade seems like a slightly underpowered Invocation as most martial classes get extra attack for free. To balance this, should Thirsting Blade allow for a cantrip to be cast as one of the attacks, similar to a Bladesinger's Extra Attack 6th level feature?
I don't feel like this would be game breaking, as Bladesingers are another non-martial gish subclass, and they can make a regular weapon attack and cast a cantrip like Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade.
Thoughts?
I think Eldritch Blast is too strong for that.
It works on Bladesinger because bladesinging is a 'stance' you have to activate with a limited amount of uses. Also their cantrips aren't that potent.
I would much rather see a Fighting Style available to Warlocks.
maybe if you limit cantrip types to "self" range.
I am very sad, you cant cast cantrip instead of 1 attack by default
Yeah, I was thinking specifically melee cantrips like Green Flame Blade and Booming Blade. Maybe tie it to your pact weapon still? Any cantrip that involves your pact weapon can be made instead of an attack? Maybe I can get my DM to houserule it.
You don't need to be bladesinging to get the extra attack/cantrip. It's a Bladesinger subclass feature, not part of bladesinging.
Keep in mind the unless you're a Hexblade, Warlocks aren't martial classes. They have access to up to level 9 spells and your pact weapon serves as more of a reliable way to attack enemies within 5 feet and creating disadvantage on your ranged spell attacks.
Assuming you're CHA modifier is +5 and your DEX is a +3, you have a better chance of hitting an enemy as opposed to attempting an Eldritch Blast. In addition, let's say you have the Lifedrinker feat, the damage versus a Warlock that isn't pact of the blade is a lot (+3 DEX, +5 CHA and 1-8 rapier) after hitting twice for an average of 25 damage (18-32 damage). The damage as well as the chance to hit gets even better if you use a +1 or +2 weapon.
A different pact Warlock will do (+3 DEX +1-4 dagger) and only get one attack for an average of 5.5 damage (4-7 damage). So their realistic options are to a.) attack from disadvantage using Eldritch Blast and hope you hit once or twice (hitting 2 out of 3 would be 12-30 for an average of 21 damage) or burn a spell slot on say burning hands and do 6-36 damage for an average of 21 on a failed save or half on successful save.
Attacking with your pact weapon is by far the most cost efficient way to deal with minor threats that peel off to attack you in melee. Larger more powerful foes will still require you to escape, likely burning a spell slot on Misty Step.
For comparison's sake, a martial class at the same level will be 21-51 (36 damage) so while they'll always perform better, they don't have access to higher level spells and the same abilities to control the battle field.
I understand that the pact weapon is a good way of doling out damage, but a Wizards is also not a martial class. So why wouldn't the Bladesinger extra attack be relevant to the Pact of the Blade Warlock?
I was also considering only including Pact Weapon based cantrips (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade, etc.). These would allow you to add your normal attack damage with the cantirp effects, so you're not limiting yourself in any way. I have a level 4 Hexlock Pact of the Blade who focuses almost exclusively on melee combat, so the added ability to cast a cantrip as part of my Thirsting Blade would be really beneficial when I hit 5.
With Bladesinger Wizards, you get an extra attack when you a.) use your melee attack and b.) that second attack can be another melee attack or a cantrip.
There's certainly a window of a few levels where it would be beneficial, and the value of either would depend on the situation, but once you get to level 12 and get lifedrinker wouldn't the additional 11-20 just be better in almost all situations?
And Wizards don't get to add their INT modifier to attack rolls at all and on damage rolls until level 14, so I would assume giving them access to GFB/BB *and* a melee attack on the same turn is balance
Just a quick look at the numbers with both using a longsword a level 6 Bladesinger can deal +3 DEX and 1-10 equaling 4-13 (av of 8.5) and add on green flame blade and you get 1-8 to the original target (so add 4.5) and 1-8 +5 INT to the second target equaling 6-13 (av 9.5). So we'll call this 22.5 until level 11. A HexBlades two melee attacks with a longsword are 6-15 twice so 12-30 which averages 21 damage. Keep in mind, a Hexblade has a +5 chance to hit with 20 charisma where a bladesinger has a +3 on their melee attack.
At level 11, the additional 1d8 on both rolls adds an average of 9 damage per round, but by level 12, The Hexblade Warlock is adding the +5 CHA from lifedrinker to both rolls for a total of 10 additional damage. So we're talking about a difference of 0.5 damage on average.
And none of this includes the various HexBlade features such as the damage equaling your profeciency bonus and additional crit chance from your HexBlade's curse, and your accursed specter. Or the fact that HexBlade's can access two handed weapons for additional damage, which combined with say Great Weapon Master is leathal.
That would be extremely overpowered. A Warlock does have a d8 hit die, so can stand up to more punishment than the Wizard, which hit die is only a d6. Wizard's also can't learn [spell]eldritch blast[spell]. That rule would allow a Warlock to destroy almost everything it comes across. If you are a Hexblade, Thirsting Blade is fine, especially when you can get Lifedrinker at level 15. If you still aren't happy, just pick up Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite. (Pick up Xanathar's Guide to Everything to build a good melee damage dealer Warlock).
Erean Cabenrith a Variant Human Cleric (Light Domain)
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Could be fun. The eldritch invocations to make melee strong vs to make eldritch blast strong would be really hard to juggle together, so I don't think it would necessarily even be broken.
Why is this even a thing. Thirsting Blade is not even close to underpowered. And it is free. Your invocations are free gains to your class. Your not using a resource or anything to gain this feature and if your Pact of the Blade or even more Importantly Hexblade this is a useful thing that is just handed to you. You can do as much or more damage under the right circumstance as any other Lock using EB.
Pact of the Blade can also synergize with various Feats for even more damage that EB just cannot do.
EB only can be paired with one Feat, It can make use of Parts of Spell Sniper and that's it. And other parts of it are just going to give you another cantrip that your probably not really going to use as a Warlock though there are some nice options.
Pact of the blade either through magical weapons or something like Improved Pact Weapon can through various builds be paired with things like GWM or Sharp Shooter for even more damage if they want to and that's your only measuring stick between them. Giving you more damage not only on the second attack provided by Thirsting blade but on the first as well. By level 12 Pact of the blade has the option to be making two attacks with a +20 damage modifier on each one with either the right melee or archery setups before even calculating in things like damage modifiers from potential magical weapons or the like.
What seems to be and what is can be two very different things and some things shouldn't be changed just based upon what they seem. Cynnamon was being kind, conservative, and very general when he gave his estimate of damage. Because it's an easy number pulled off by any pact of the blade warlock sustainably. But the truth is with the right factors in mind and the right build much higher is achievable.
Thirsting Blade really does not need the ability to do cantrips mixed in to make it a low key mimic of the Bladesinger subclass. The truth is the Bladesinger needs that ability to even try to keep up with something like the Warlock.
Would it though? One melee attack on top of an eldritch blast with all the bells and whistles is a lot, but it isn't broken. And getting all the basic invocations for melee and eldritch blast would be a lot to squeeze in.
And they conflict; when you use eldritch blast, you aren't benefiting from improved pact weapon.
And it would require investment; you have to go pact of the blade and give up utility invocations, and have to split dex/char or go hexblade (but even hexblade's curse clashes with eldritch blast).
I agree with Kronzy. You can't be both a Blaster and do well with your Pact Weapon. Hexblade Pact of Blade takes a LOT of specialization to be viable (Improved Pact Weapon, Thirsting Blade) which MIGHT leave you an Invocation open for Agonizing Blast, but that's if you don't want any other utility (Fiendish Vigor [which is very good for a 1d8 front liner] or Devil's Sight). I even said that you could tie it directly to your Pact Weapon, meaning that the cantrip you used would have to involve making a melee attack with your pact weapon.
If you really think it's overpowered, you could balance it by requiring your bonus action to cast the cantrip/make the attack (and the only bonus action cantrip that Warlocks get is Magic Stone which doesn't synergize with any Warlock build anyway).
I think Thirsting Blade is fine, but if you want to upgrade it, I think copying Bladesinger Extra Attack is a poor choice - not least because the Bladesinger one is at L6, so it's harder to get than an L5 EA. I would upgrade it to, rather than letting one of your attacks be a cantrip, letting one of your attacks create the weapon.
If you mean the summoning of the weapon be one of the attacks, I'd go even farther and just make summoning the weapon part of the Attack action, so that you still get both attacks that turn. I wouldn't allow you to use it as a thrown weapon for both attacks however, so I'd word it like this : "When you take the Attack action on your turn, you may also summon your Pact Weapon to your hand, dismissing it first if it is already summoned and not currently being held by you. You can only do this at the start of the Attack action, before any attacks are made." That way if you've been disarmed by the enemy before taking your turn you can *bamf* the weapon back to your hand and attack with it. Dismissing your Pack Weapon costs no action, but I'd want the wording to be explicit just because someone always has questions when things aren't blatantly spelled out. I would've just made summoning the weapon a Bonus Action just by default as part of Pact Of The Blade, to be honest. Yes, I know that would block things like Hex and Hexblade's Curse, but so be it. Costing an action always felt too expensive.
It really is. (And so is dipping 3 levels into Eldritch Knight just to get Weapon Bond.)
To be fair though, it's not like a martial class NEEDS to be able to summon his weapon in the first place; why make a one-level Hexblade dip even MORE attractive?
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