Quick question about the Claws of the Beast feature.
At level 3, can you get 3 attacks? 1 Claw Attack for Action. 1 Extra Claw Attack as part of Action. 1 Claw Attack as a Bonus Action
Then at Level 5, you get a 4th attack?
Also, TCOE says that the claws "count as a simple melee weapon for you, and you add your Strength modifier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with it, as normal."
Does that mean you get the benefits of Two Weapon Fighting Fighting Style, or the Dual Wielder Feat?
The two-weapon fighting rules only work with light melee weapons you're holding. Even with the Dual Wielder feat, you're not holding your claws; they're attached to your body. That's likely why they give you a free attack with them.
Hmmm. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I don’t really like that adjudication, but I can recognize it as the most official. Doesn’t make much sense from a meta/flavor level.
What would be more “light” than your own hands, and why does the act of “holding” a weapon make it exclusive to two-weapon tricks?
Maybe there is some game balance antics that I’m not aware of.
You get a benefit equivalent to, and better than, two-weapon fighting with claws: You get an additional attack without using a bonus action and without loosing your strength modifier, without having to draw 2 weapons etc.
For the fighting style, there is no benefit I can see. You already add your mods, so it doesn't matter whether it applies.
For Dual Wielder, RAW it doesn't apply. However, if I came across this as DM I would consider house ruling allowing the +1 AC. I might require something in return: maybe something along the lines of you must use your bonus action to activate the AC increase until the end of your next turn, and/or you cannot add your Str mod to the damage if you are benefiting from the AC boost... Not sure. It's very possible I'd just straight up allow the AC boost when your claws were active. However, this would definitely be a house rule. The feat specifies the AC boost is only active "while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand", and you no longer even have hands as each of "your hands transforms into a claw".
You get a benefit equivalent to, and better than, two-weapon fighting with claws: You get an additional attack without using a bonus action and without loosing your strength modifier, without having to draw 2 weapons etc.
My thoughts exactly. And keep in mind monks don't use the TWF rules either; their unarmed strikes are given special treatment through the Martial Arts feature.
You get a benefit equivalent to, and better than, two-weapon fighting with claws: You get an additional attack without using a bonus action and without loosing your strength modifier, without having to draw 2 weapons etc.
My thoughts exactly. And keep in mind monks don't use the TWF rules either; their unarmed strikes are given special treatment through the Martial Arts feature.
True. Although a Monk would get access to three attacks at level two, and this Path at level 3 with the Claws still would only get you two. I guess what I'm getting at is that these features seem underpowered when compared to basic weapons like a Greataxe. But if the claws could let you attack three times, even if the third attack is weakened in the same way that bonus attack with an off-hand weapon, it would feel better.
I suppose a Longtooth Shifter Path of the Beast character can get that frenzied attack vibe. (Claw, Claw, Bite)
Remember you're also stacking on rage damage for those extra swings too. More attacks /love/ static modifiers. You can get the eldritch claw tattoo to boost the damage on your claws a little as well.
A level 5 barb will swing his greataxe twice for d12+6 d12+6 =25. A level 5 beast barb will swing claws 3 times for d6+6, d6+6, d6+6 = 28.5
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
You can also use a shield, which a great weapon barb can't do.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
This thread made me think about valenar double bladed scimitars on a barbarian again. The numbers look pretty legit. A Valenar elf with DBS and 17 str (thanks to Tashas) will swing once (while raging of course) for 2d4 +3 +2 = 10, then as a bonus action swing for 1d4 +3 +2 = 7.5 or 17.5 DPR, assuming all hits. A Greataxe will swing once for D12 +3 +2 = 11.5 DPR.
At level 4, you'll take revenant blade which bumps your str to 18 (so you're not behind) and your bonus action attack /also/ becomes 2d4. Now, the greataxe barb will be pumping out 12.5 DPR, but the DBS will jump to 22 DPR (2d4 +4+2 = 11; 2d4 +4 +2 = 11). At level 5, they can multi attack. Greataxe catches up a little bit; 2 hits for 25 DPR (D12 +4 +2 = 12.5; D12 +4 +2 = 12.5). DBS attacks twice also for 22 DPR (2d4 +4 +2 = 11; 2d4 +4 +2 = 11) and as a bonus action attacks again for 2d4 +4 +2 = 11 for a total of 33 DPR.
Now, of course DBS doesn't qualify for GWM, and vhuman with PAM might do even better (and will, if you factor in OA from PAM), but DBS looks really solid for barbs.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
And Eldritch Claw states “Magical Strikes. While the tattoo is on your skin, your unarmed strikes are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks, and you gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes.”
So does that mean that the Eldritch Claw Tattoo does not effect the beast weapons?
This is where the game gets super crunchy. Like, what’s the practical difference between an “unarmed strike” and a “natural attack,” especially when concerning an item called “Eldritch Claw Tattoo”?
If I’m DMing, I would absolutely say that Tattoo covers natural weapons.
Yes, any DM with an ounce of sense will allow Eldritch Claw Tattoo to work with your claws, especially considering the primary flaw of the design is that it falls behind in later levels when everyone else gets magic weapons. It is a houserule though.
edit - I forgot about Insignia of Claws which does work with natural weapons. So there's another option.
This thread made me think about valenar double bladed scimitars on a barbarian again. The numbers look pretty legit. A Valenar elf with DBS and 17 str (thanks to Tashas) will swing once (while raging of course) for 2d4 +3 +2 = 10, then as a bonus action swing for 1d4 +3 +2 = 7.5 or 17.5 DPR, assuming all hits. A Greataxe will swing once for D12 +3 +2 = 11.5 DPR.
At level 4, you'll take revenant blade which bumps your str to 18 (so you're not behind) and your bonus action attack /also/ becomes 2d4. Now, the greataxe barb will be pumping out 12.5 DPR, but the DBS will jump to 22 DPR (2d4 +4+2 = 11; 2d4 +4 +2 = 11). At level 5, they can multi attack. Greataxe catches up a little bit; 2 hits for 25 DPR (D12 +4 +2 = 12.5; D12 +4 +2 = 12.5). DBS attacks twice also for 22 DPR (2d4 +4 +2 = 11; 2d4 +4 +2 = 11) and as a bonus action attacks again for 2d4 +4 +2 = 11 for a total of 33 DPR.
Now, of course DBS doesn't qualify for GWM, and vhuman with PAM might do even better (and will, if you factor in OA from PAM), but DBS looks really solid for barbs.
And then you can MC rogue and stack sneak attack on it since DBS with revenant blade is a finesse weapon. I really, really like this combo and it can open up some cool concepts. My Totem Barb/Phantom Rogue was the elite guard for the shaman of his tribe, with a really cool blend of spirit/voodoo abilities, tons of skills, and great damage potential.
Glad someone else did the math on that, plus you can do it while wielding a shield. My question is if my Beast Barbarian is carrying a shield that means his "claw" is not empty and cannot be used as a weapon. If that is the case, would the dueling fighting style give you +2 damage to each claw attack? Relevant rules text below
Dueling - When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other Weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to Damage Rolls with that weapon
Form of the Beast - 3rd-level Path of the Beast feature When you enter your rage, you can transform, revealing the bestial power within you. Until the rage ends, you manifest a natural weapon. It counts as a simple melee weapon for you, and you add your Strength modiier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with it, as normal.
Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action
I think, RAW, that would not work again. You are not "wielding a melee weapon in one hand". Your claw is not in your hand, your hand was transformed into it.
What a DM would allow at any particular game is a different matter, of course.
I think, RAW, that would not work again. You are not "wielding a melee weapon in one hand". Your claw is not in your hand, your hand was transformed into it.
What a DM would allow at any particular game is a different matter, of course.
This is the general response I get. My argument that it works RAW comes from the specific wording of "claws" out of Tashas
Claws. - Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty."
DIctionary.com says the definition of "wield" is -
to use (a weapon, instrument, etc.) effectively; handle or employ actively.
Since you can "use it as a weapon if it's empty", that means you are wielding it in one hand. The claws are attached to the hand, literally IN the hand.
So that is my argument that this works RAW. I hope there is an errata concerning this soon cause it definitely seems like it needs some rules clarifications to me.
Quick question about the Claws of the Beast feature.
At level 3, can you get 3 attacks? 1 Claw Attack for Action. 1 Extra Claw Attack as part of Action. 1 Claw Attack as a Bonus Action
Then at Level 5, you get a 4th attack?
Also, TCOE says that the claws "count as a simple melee weapon for you, and you add your Strength modifier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with it, as normal."
Does that mean you get the benefits of Two Weapon Fighting Fighting Style, or the Dual Wielder Feat?
The two-weapon fighting rules only work with light melee weapons you're holding. Even with the Dual Wielder feat, you're not holding your claws; they're attached to your body. That's likely why they give you a free attack with them.
Hmmm. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I don’t really like that adjudication, but I can recognize it as the most official. Doesn’t make much sense from a meta/flavor level.
What would be more “light” than your own hands, and why does the act of “holding” a weapon make it exclusive to two-weapon tricks?
Maybe there is some game balance antics that I’m not aware of.
You get a benefit equivalent to, and better than, two-weapon fighting with claws: You get an additional attack without using a bonus action and without loosing your strength modifier, without having to draw 2 weapons etc.
For the fighting style, there is no benefit I can see. You already add your mods, so it doesn't matter whether it applies.
For Dual Wielder, RAW it doesn't apply. However, if I came across this as DM I would consider house ruling allowing the +1 AC. I might require something in return: maybe something along the lines of you must use your bonus action to activate the AC increase until the end of your next turn, and/or you cannot add your Str mod to the damage if you are benefiting from the AC boost... Not sure. It's very possible I'd just straight up allow the AC boost when your claws were active. However, this would definitely be a house rule. The feat specifies the AC boost is only active "while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand", and you no longer even have hands as each of "your hands transforms into a claw".
My thoughts exactly. And keep in mind monks don't use the TWF rules either; their unarmed strikes are given special treatment through the Martial Arts feature.
True. Although a Monk would get access to three attacks at level two, and this Path at level 3 with the Claws still would only get you two. I guess what I'm getting at is that these features seem underpowered when compared to basic weapons like a Greataxe. But if the claws could let you attack three times, even if the third attack is weakened in the same way that bonus attack with an off-hand weapon, it would feel better.
I suppose a Longtooth Shifter Path of the Beast character can get that frenzied attack vibe. (Claw, Claw, Bite)
Remember you're also stacking on rage damage for those extra swings too. More attacks /love/ static modifiers. You can get the eldritch claw tattoo to boost the damage on your claws a little as well.
A level 5 barb will swing his greataxe twice for d12+6 d12+6 =25. A level 5 beast barb will swing claws 3 times for d6+6, d6+6, d6+6 = 28.5
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That is nice!
And I suppose there are other ways to get an attack out of a bonus action.
You can also use a shield, which a great weapon barb can't do.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
This thread made me think about valenar double bladed scimitars on a barbarian again. The numbers look pretty legit. A Valenar elf with DBS and 17 str (thanks to Tashas) will swing once (while raging of course) for 2d4 +3 +2 = 10, then as a bonus action swing for 1d4 +3 +2 = 7.5 or 17.5 DPR, assuming all hits. A Greataxe will swing once for D12 +3 +2 = 11.5 DPR.
At level 4, you'll take revenant blade which bumps your str to 18 (so you're not behind) and your bonus action attack /also/ becomes 2d4. Now, the greataxe barb will be pumping out 12.5 DPR, but the DBS will jump to 22 DPR (2d4 +4+2 = 11; 2d4 +4 +2 = 11). At level 5, they can multi attack. Greataxe catches up a little bit; 2 hits for 25 DPR (D12 +4 +2 = 12.5; D12 +4 +2 = 12.5). DBS attacks twice also for 22 DPR (2d4 +4 +2 = 11; 2d4 +4 +2 = 11) and as a bonus action attacks again for 2d4 +4 +2 = 11 for a total of 33 DPR.
Now, of course DBS doesn't qualify for GWM, and vhuman with PAM might do even better (and will, if you factor in OA from PAM), but DBS looks really solid for barbs.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Does the Eldritch Claw Tattoo work with the Path of the Beast Attacks?
Are the claws/bite/tail considered unarmed strikes or natural weapons?
And Eldritch Claw states “Magical Strikes. While the tattoo is on your skin, your unarmed strikes are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks, and you gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes.”
So does that mean that the Eldritch Claw Tattoo does not effect the beast weapons?
No, it would not apply. The Beast effects are Natural Weapons, not Unarmed Strikes.
This is where the game gets super crunchy. Like, what’s the practical difference between an “unarmed strike” and a “natural attack,” especially when concerning an item called “Eldritch Claw Tattoo”?
If I’m DMing, I would absolutely say that Tattoo covers natural weapons.
Yes, any DM with an ounce of sense will allow Eldritch Claw Tattoo to work with your claws, especially considering the primary flaw of the design is that it falls behind in later levels when everyone else gets magic weapons. It is a houserule though.
edit - I forgot about Insignia of Claws which does work with natural weapons. So there's another option.
And then you can MC rogue and stack sneak attack on it since DBS with revenant blade is a finesse weapon. I really, really like this combo and it can open up some cool concepts. My Totem Barb/Phantom Rogue was the elite guard for the shaman of his tribe, with a really cool blend of spirit/voodoo abilities, tons of skills, and great damage potential.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Glad someone else did the math on that, plus you can do it while wielding a shield. My question is if my Beast Barbarian is carrying a shield that means his "claw" is not empty and cannot be used as a weapon. If that is the case, would the dueling fighting style give you +2 damage to each claw attack? Relevant rules text below
Dueling - When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other Weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to Damage Rolls with that weapon
Form of the Beast - 3rd-level Path of the Beast feature When you enter your rage, you can transform, revealing the bestial power within you. Until the rage ends, you manifest a natural weapon. It counts as a simple melee weapon for you, and you add your Strength modiier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with it, as normal.
Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action
I think, RAW, that would not work again. You are not "wielding a melee weapon in one hand". Your claw is not in your hand, your hand was transformed into it.
What a DM would allow at any particular game is a different matter, of course.
This is the general response I get. My argument that it works RAW comes from the specific wording of "claws" out of Tashas
Claws. - Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty."
DIctionary.com says the definition of "wield" is -
You see, my thoughts go to this bit:
"Each of your hands transforms into a claw"
Your claw is not in, or attached, to your hand. Your hand has transformed into a claw, which to me would mean you no longer even have a hand.