I don't find roll20 particularly intuitive to use, or esp good for managing a character, looking up spells on the fly, going back and forth between a monster and it's spells, etc. it's definately built for use as a VTT, which DNDBEYOND isn't. I don't want a VTT. If I play over the net I use a video chat like g+, and one camera views my actual table, minis, etc. most of the time, I play irl, and I'd already rather use this than roll20 for an irl game session.
This. I really tried to use Roll20 for my tabletop game and was quite frustrated. I got the sense that I could have made it work, with enough effort. The reason I want computer tools, though, is to reduce the amount of effort I have to put in. I'll accept a certain level of configuration/set-up, but a tool really needs to "just work" for me to bother. I'm more inclined to change the game system I'm using than take the time to learn a new tool, if the system is complex enough.
I don't find roll20 particularly intuitive to use, or esp good for managing a character, looking up spells on the fly, going back and forth between a monster and it's spells, etc. it's definately built for use as a VTT, which DNDBEYOND isn't. I don't want a VTT. If I play over the net I use a video chat like g+, and one camera views my actual table, minis, etc. most of the time, I play irl, and I'd already rather use this than roll20 for an irl game session.
This. I really tried to use Roll20 for my tabletop game and was quite frustrated. I got the sense that I could have made it work, with enough effort. The reason I want computer tools, though, is to reduce the amount of effort I have to put in. I'll accept a certain level of configuration/set-up, but a tool really needs to "just work" for me to bother. I'm more inclined to change the game system I'm using than take the time to learn a new tool, if the system is complex enough.
I don't find roll20 particularly intuitive to use, or esp good for managing a character, looking up spells on the fly, going back and forth between a monster and it's spells, etc. it's definately built for use as a VTT, which DNDBEYOND isn't. I don't want a VTT. If I play over the net I use a video chat like g+, and one camera views my actual table, minis, etc. most of the time, I play irl, and I'd already rather use this than roll20 for an irl game session.
This. I really tried to use Roll20 for my tabletop game and was quite frustrated. I got the sense that I could have made it work, with enough effort. The reason I want computer tools, though, is to reduce the amount of effort I have to put in. I'll accept a certain level of configuration/set-up, but a tool really needs to "just work" for me to bother. I'm more inclined to change the game system I'm using than take the time to learn a new tool, if the system is complex enough.
100% this.
Every time I've checked into something like Roll20, the price is what's put me off. Several hundred dollars, even if it's drawn out over months, just to have access to books that I've bought hard copies of; and then having to learn how to use another program ? I agree with the idea of a tool that makes running my games easier ( which is what DDB is looking like it's going to be ) rather than a never ending headache and money pit that the VTT's look to be
I don't find roll20 particularly intuitive to use, or esp good for managing a character, looking up spells on the fly, going back and forth between a monster and it's spells, etc. it's definately built for use as a VTT, which DNDBEYOND isn't. I don't want a VTT. If I play over the net I use a video chat like g+, and one camera views my actual table, minis, etc. most of the time, I play irl, and I'd already rather use this than roll20 for an irl game session.
This. I really tried to use Roll20 for my tabletop game and was quite frustrated. I got the sense that I could have made it work, with enough effort. The reason I want computer tools, though, is to reduce the amount of effort I have to put in. I'll accept a certain level of configuration/set-up, but a tool really needs to "just work" for me to bother. I'm more inclined to change the game system I'm using than take the time to learn a new tool, if the system is complex enough.
100% this.
Every time I've checked into something like Roll20, the price is what's put me off. Several hundred dollars, even if it's drawn out over months, just to have access to books that I've bought hard copies of; and then having to learn how to use another program ? I agree with the idea of a tool that makes running my games easier ( which is what DDB is looking like it's going to be ) rather than a never ending headache and money pit that the VTT's look to be
Certainly. If I wanted to use a VTT, I would consider them, but I just don't. Even to play with friends online, I'd rather just video chat.
the only thing that is bugging me right now is the thought of paying for a master sub, and still having to buy digital copies of books. Even freemium MMOs don't pull that sort of thing on you.
In South Africa (where I live) to buy the books cost almost double the price as per the cost on WotC website: Player's Handbook = US$90 equivalent in local currency, and it is only available at highly specialist hobby shops.
I would want the option to buy a digital version or online access to all books, payable per book. If it is modules that is unlocked when bought, or a PDF copy, I do not really mind.
For this type of purchase I do not believe a monthly fee is fair. There may be space for a monthly fee service, for example Adventure League releases, but it should also be optional.
Cost per module? I think it is reasonable to sell the digital module/copy for the same price as the books.
These are my hopes in terms of free/pay to use. Free: Everything so far in Stage 1 of Beta plus eventual character sheets and manage management. Pay: All WotC original campaigns and story arcs that they have produced plus maybe little things like extra character sheets (they could put out like room for 3 free character sheets but then we pay for each more we want.)
In South Africa (where I live) to buy the books cost almost double the price as per the cost on WotC website: Player's Handbook = US$90 equivalent in local currency, and it is only available at highly specialist hobby shops.
I would want the option to buy a digital version or online access to all books, payable per book. If it is modules that is unlocked when bought, or a PDF copy, I do not really mind.
For this type of purchase I do not believe a monthly fee is fair. There may be space for a monthly fee service, for example Adventure League releases, but it should also be optional.
Cost per module? I think it is reasonable to sell the digital module/copy for the same price as the books.
There definately should be the option to just buy the things with one time purchases. If possible that should also come with a PDF version usable outside the program.
I just think there should also be subscriber access to the content in the program. Even if Heroic Subscriber is too low a cost to work for that, that higher tier of subscription, Master Tier, should give access to the phb, SCAG, Volos, etc, while you have an active sub.
Another big wish I have (although this might be pushing the boundaries): Make the rules/monsters/spells/items from the (core) books viewable and searchable without having to pay and without having to log in. They would still not be free to use in the upcoming character generator/campaign manager, but at least everyone could use/view those awesome links: Fireball, Ancient Black Dragon, ...
The main reason I suggest this is, that there is another RPG out there (based on the OGL version of the 3.5 edition of D&D) where all of the rules/monsters/spells/items are free to view and search on wiki pages. This is a huge advantage of that other game, since you can just search for anything on the wiki page and find it there without being restricted by login masks or pay walls. It must be seen as a serious competition for 5th edition D&D.
In my opinion, D&D Beyond promises to offer enough added value to justify paying for the ability to use the rules/monsters/spells/items with the tools coming to this site in phase 2 and beyond. The physical rule books with all the flavor texts (which we already own anyway) and the adventures (both digital and physical) should generate enough revenue for WotC that they could offer the rules/monsters/spells/items for free exclusively here on this site.
Ok, that should be enough wishful thinking on my part for now.
I think that all of this elaborate digital database stuff is a way to bypass the whole concept of a pdf entirely. Which, oddly, worked for 4e. It could work here. If I can basically have the same information on my phone or tablet while offline, then I don't care if it is a pdf. Pdfs are better when they are searchable anyway.
I think that all of this elaborate digital database stuff is a way to bypass the whole concept of a pdf entirely. Which, oddly, worked for 4e. It could work here. If I can basically have the same information on my phone or tablet while offline, then I don't care if it is a pdf. Pdfs are better when they are searchable anyway.
Sure, but I can back up my PDFs so the aren't lost if a service stops being supported and gets too buggy to use.
Still, I still use the 4e offline character builder and adventure builder, so, fair points.
Offline availability is a must... and easy access while playing the game for quick reference... Essentially, a PDF is just a digital version of a book, so I cannot see why they will not have a PDF option.
The most I would be willing to do is when Beyond officially launches is compromise by having a one-time fee for life. Then a list would pop up asking you what products you have purchased and you would select them then it would take you to an order screen with an 80% discount on the total. The option to buy access to digital and physical bundle would appear with all future releases. To make it reasonable for all future releases the price for the bundle would be $40 as the Players Handbook etc. are almost always $20 cheaper than the $49.99 price. The extra $10 would be for having digital access to the product. Currently, if you were to buy every single book at the MSRB with no tax it would be $450. $450-360=$90 so in order to make the service reasonable make the one time fee $90. I realize the price is high and not the most feasible but that's the best compromise I can see so far. The Player's Handbook though is literally $21 on Amazon and I know I've never paid the full $50 dollars for any of the 5th edition books.
I voted for "One Time Fee" and I would rather content simply be unlocked as you buy the D&D Beyond books. I would also love to be able to download those books onto my device for access offline on that device.
The most I would be willing to do is when Beyond officially launches is compromise by having a one-time fee for life. Then a list would pop up asking you what products you have purchased and you would select them then it would take you to an order screen with an 80% discount on the total. The option to buy access to digital and physical bundle would appear with all future releases. To make it reasonable for all future releases the price for the bundle would be $40 as the Players Handbook etc. are almost always $20 cheaper than the $49.99 price. The extra $10 would be for having digital access to the product. Currently, if you were to buy every single book at the MSRB with no tax it would be $450. $450-360=$90 so in order to make the service reasonable make the one time fee $90. I realize the price is high and not the most feasible but that's the best compromise I can see so far. The Player's Handbook though is literally $21 on Amazon and I know I've never paid the full $50 dollars for any of the 5th edition books.
It is difficult to decide where to begin with this. I guess it's at least better than saying everything should be free, but let's not pretend that this is less than a suggestion that DDB should just offer an 80% discount on all the currently released 5e materials to everyone because some people already bought a completely different product than what DDB is offering. As I've stated in other posts, these kinds of arguments would make more sense if DDB was just providing PDFs, but the way this is shaping up so far, DDB and the books are apples and oranges. Granted, I would be overjoyed if they decide to offer purchases at that rate. I just don't think I "deserve" it based on me having purchased the books.
On another note, where are you getting your numbers? I count 12 books (not including the Starter Set or Dungeonology) for a combined cost of ~$550 at full price. Maybe you missed the Tyranny of Dragons books and Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide (the 3 books not worth $50)? If so, it looks like the $360 is supposed to represent the cost of all the books at $10 less each (to reflect the suggestion that future releases be physical/digital bundles for $10 less than the physical books alone are currently?). Adding in the missing books, that number should actually be $430. I'm not entirely sure why the full price of the physical books minus the cost of the, somehow, cheaper product that offers more than the original (and is a cost suggestion for future releases applied to previous releases) is the formula for determining the lifetime access fee, but $550-$430=$120.
All that being said, I don't see how this is, in any way, a compromise (in part because DDB pricing suggestions have not yet been released). This is you telling them what they should charge based on shoddy math and arbitrary discounts.
Your right it was $550. That being said I think you're a little hung up on word choice, (compromise). I appreciate clarity as much as the next person but jumping on a simple clerical error comes across as anal retentive. Since you don't have the full context It was around 4 a.m last night when I made the last post
The $90 dollar fee as I stated above was a basis of a beginning for a "reasonable fee". Like I said above though I realize $90 dollars isn't practical but as you pointed out $550-430=$120. I can't stress this enough this was meant to be a basis and only a basis to develop a reasonable charge for an online fee. As for the discount being arbitrary, it isn't, it's to make it within the realm of possibility that people would still be willing to pay for a premium service. $120 sounds a lot better than $275.
Frankly, the main question that needs answering is how many services is DDB as a whole going to offer? If they add digital content or the books online then you run into the issue of consumers that have already bought the product and are unwilling to buy it again. People are already uploading pdfs of the books regardless and while people will still do that anyways if you give people the available resources for a reasonable price they will pay to use them. The other question is what is DDB going to be? It could simply just add all of the player and dm elements with each new release and leave out the actual adventure or they could alleviate the issue by simply not adding the book digitally.
Pricing is definitely a concern though as the majority of consumers are not willing to pay the full $49.99 MSRP for content they have already purchased. Wizard's set the perceived value at that point but as far as I'm concerned I'm only willing to $15-20 less. If Wizard's takes a note out of Amazon's pricing for their content though I'm sure that would be a solid beginning to an online service.
Character sheets, homebrew and campaign should be split into two tiers; free and subscriber. Free service should include full access to everything necessary to play while a subscriber receives additional experience enhancing tools and graphics. The prevailing reason I believe it should be free is to keep the game as all inclusive as the pen and paper system. As I see, this app is working to give D&D the modern ease and attractiveness we are used to in this digital age without losing the feel and accessibility of pen and paper.
A full unlock of the compendium and listing should be a one time fee. The basic rules and just enough lists to get started playing should be available without payment.
Premium content, such as books and dungeon tiles should be an additional one time fee per item. This however, is something I have already had frustration with as I am a Roll20 user, but had previously bought physical copies of the books. It was incredibly frustrating to pay twice for the same adventure. Because the Roll20 modules are officially licensed, I hope there will be a way to verify my Roll20 purchases and restore them to D&D Beyond (Maybe offer it as an option for subscribers).
Is English not your first language? If so, that gives you a lot more leeway in misusing words and phrases, and I apologize for not giving it to you. Please read the rest of this post from the perspective of me trying to explain why I interpreted your post the way I did as a means of working with you toward a shared goal of negotiating an affordable and fairly priced DDB. Otherwise, if English is your first language, then you should know that implying that I am anal retentive for not understanding that when you wrote "the best compromise I can see so far" you actually meant "a basis to develop a reasonable charge for an online fee" is absurd. Please read the rest of this post as me explaining to you why that is the case.
Those two phrases are entirely different (and not just because no words are repeated from one phrase to the other). The original phrase (with compromise) implies that you have made a decision on how much and in which way you are willing to pay for DDB, and anything beyond that that doesn't directly work in your favor is out of the question. In other words, this is a closed statement. The second phrase implies that you are offering a starting point from which you are willing to consider other options and opinions that might influence that point in one direction or another. This is an open statement.
It's not my fault the words you used don't mean what you wanted to say. That would be a bit like me complaining that, were I to say that I own my own business, people thought I was a business owner (I'm not) and didn't realize I meant I shop at places that sell things.
In regards to what DDB is offering, this is only Phase 1 of 3 of the Beta, but there are some strong indicators of what's to come:
An online, searchable compendium of all things DnD 5e
An interactive character builder
A campaign builder
The ability to homebrew just about any mechanic in the game and have that dynamically linked to the character and campaign builder with easy implementation
Campaign and character management tools beyond just creation
At least one way to access all published 5e materials that are not a printed book
I'm sure there are other things that I missed, but this goes to another point that I made above. Purchasing a book is not the same as purchasing published material from DDB. Treating them as though they are the same is like saying that, if I have the recipe for a meal, I should get that meal for free, or at least at a significant discount, if I order it at the restaurant from which I bought the recipe. Sure, you could make it at home for yourself. You could probably even convince a friend or family member to cook it for you. The restaurant, however, is still going to charge you for the meal if you want to have them make. Also, ignoring that it's not an apples to apples comparison (see the previous portion of this paragraph), where are you getting data that says the majority of consumers are not willing to pay full MSRP for content they have already purchased? Or is this another case of I should know that, when you say majority, you do not mean that data has been collected from a statistically significant population size and greater than 50% indicated this, but instead mean that you and a lot of others, who may or may not represent the majority of consumers, are unwilling?
Lastly, you still haven't addressed why full MSRP for all published material minus your proposed, discounted cost for all published materials should be the life time fee. This seems completely arbitrary without you providing further context on why these numbers represented in this way are an acceptable way to determine pricing. I ask for clarification on this because, as you've presented it, this leads to some other (potentially unintended) concerns. Primarily does this mean that the lifetime fee increases with each new release, making it better to purchase sooner rather than later? Adding another book at $50 MSRP would raise the cost by $10 ($550 -> $600; $430 -> $470; $600 - $470 = $130 = $120 + $10).
We do bones, motherf***ker!
We do bones, motherf***ker!
In South Africa (where I live) to buy the books cost almost double the price as per the cost on WotC website: Player's Handbook = US$90 equivalent in local currency, and it is only available at highly specialist hobby shops.
I would want the option to buy a digital version or online access to all books, payable per book. If it is modules that is unlocked when bought, or a PDF copy, I do not really mind.
For this type of purchase I do not believe a monthly fee is fair. There may be space for a monthly fee service, for example Adventure League releases, but it should also be optional.
Cost per module? I think it is reasonable to sell the digital module/copy for the same price as the books.
...and so it begins!
These are my hopes in terms of free/pay to use.
Free: Everything so far in Stage 1 of Beta plus eventual character sheets and manage management.
Pay: All WotC original campaigns and story arcs that they have produced plus maybe little things like extra character sheets (they could put out like room for 3 free character sheets but then we pay for each more we want.)
J. Conatser
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I highly doubt the PDF. The info will be available offline, in the upcoming app.
Another big wish I have (although this might be pushing the boundaries): Make the rules/monsters/spells/items from the (core) books viewable and searchable without having to pay and without having to log in. They would still not be free to use in the upcoming character generator/campaign manager, but at least everyone could use/view those awesome links: Fireball, Ancient Black Dragon, ...
The main reason I suggest this is, that there is another RPG out there (based on the OGL version of the 3.5 edition of D&D) where all of the rules/monsters/spells/items are free to view and search on wiki pages. This is a huge advantage of that other game, since you can just search for anything on the wiki page and find it there without being restricted by login masks or pay walls. It must be seen as a serious competition for 5th edition D&D.
In my opinion, D&D Beyond promises to offer enough added value to justify paying for the ability to use the rules/monsters/spells/items with the tools coming to this site in phase 2 and beyond. The physical rule books with all the flavor texts (which we already own anyway) and the adventures (both digital and physical) should generate enough revenue for WotC that they could offer the rules/monsters/spells/items for free exclusively here on this site.
Ok, that should be enough wishful thinking on my part for now.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
I think that all of this elaborate digital database stuff is a way to bypass the whole concept of a pdf entirely. Which, oddly, worked for 4e. It could work here. If I can basically have the same information on my phone or tablet while offline, then I don't care if it is a pdf. Pdfs are better when they are searchable anyway.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
Offline availability is a must... and easy access while playing the game for quick reference... Essentially, a PDF is just a digital version of a book, so I cannot see why they will not have a PDF option.
...and so it begins!
The most I would be willing to do is when Beyond officially launches is compromise by having a one-time fee for life. Then a list would pop up asking you what products you have purchased and you would select them then it would take you to an order screen with an 80% discount on the total. The option to buy access to digital and physical bundle would appear with all future releases. To make it reasonable for all future releases the price for the bundle would be $40 as the Players Handbook etc. are almost always $20 cheaper than the $49.99 price. The extra $10 would be for having digital access to the product. Currently, if you were to buy every single book at the MSRB with no tax it would be $450. $450-360=$90 so in order to make the service reasonable make the one time fee $90. I realize the price is high and not the most feasible but that's the best compromise I can see so far. The Player's Handbook though is literally $21 on Amazon and I know I've never paid the full $50 dollars for any of the 5th edition books.
I voted for "One Time Fee" and I would rather content simply be unlocked as you buy the D&D Beyond books. I would also love to be able to download those books onto my device for access offline on that device.
Your right it was $550. That being said I think you're a little hung up on word choice, (compromise). I appreciate clarity as much as the next person but jumping on a simple clerical error comes across as anal retentive. Since you don't have the full context It was around 4 a.m last night when I made the last post
The $90 dollar fee as I stated above was a basis of a beginning for a "reasonable fee". Like I said above though I realize $90 dollars isn't practical but as you pointed out $550-430=$120. I can't stress this enough this was meant to be a basis and only a basis to develop a reasonable charge for an online fee. As for the discount being arbitrary, it isn't, it's to make it within the realm of possibility that people would still be willing to pay for a premium service. $120 sounds a lot better than $275.
Frankly, the main question that needs answering is how many services is DDB as a whole going to offer? If they add digital content or the books online then you run into the issue of consumers that have already bought the product and are unwilling to buy it again. People are already uploading pdfs of the books regardless and while people will still do that anyways if you give people the available resources for a reasonable price they will pay to use them. The other question is what is DDB going to be? It could simply just add all of the player and dm elements with each new release and leave out the actual adventure or they could alleviate the issue by simply not adding the book digitally.
Pricing is definitely a concern though as the majority of consumers are not willing to pay the full $49.99 MSRP for content they have already purchased. Wizard's set the perceived value at that point but as far as I'm concerned I'm only willing to $15-20 less. If Wizard's takes a note out of Amazon's pricing for their content though I'm sure that would be a solid beginning to an online service.
Character sheets, homebrew and campaign should be split into two tiers; free and subscriber. Free service should include full access to everything necessary to play while a subscriber receives additional experience enhancing tools and graphics.
The prevailing reason I believe it should be free is to keep the game as all inclusive as the pen and paper system. As I see, this app is working to give D&D the modern ease and attractiveness we are used to in this digital age without losing the feel and accessibility of pen and paper.
A full unlock of the compendium and listing should be a one time fee. The basic rules and just enough lists to get started playing should be available without payment.
Premium content, such as books and dungeon tiles should be an additional one time fee per item. This however, is something I have already had frustration with as I am a Roll20 user, but had previously bought physical copies of the books. It was incredibly frustrating to pay twice for the same adventure. Because the Roll20 modules are officially licensed, I hope there will be a way to verify my Roll20 purchases and restore them to D&D Beyond (Maybe offer it as an option for subscribers).
Well, that's what I think!
Thanks for reading.
Is English not your first language? If so, that gives you a lot more leeway in misusing words and phrases, and I apologize for not giving it to you. Please read the rest of this post from the perspective of me trying to explain why I interpreted your post the way I did as a means of working with you toward a shared goal of negotiating an affordable and fairly priced DDB. Otherwise, if English is your first language, then you should know that implying that I am anal retentive for not understanding that when you wrote "the best compromise I can see so far" you actually meant "a basis to develop a reasonable charge for an online fee" is absurd. Please read the rest of this post as me explaining to you why that is the case.
In regards to what DDB is offering, this is only Phase 1 of 3 of the Beta, but there are some strong indicators of what's to come:
I'm sure there are other things that I missed, but this goes to another point that I made above. Purchasing a book is not the same as purchasing published material from DDB. Treating them as though they are the same is like saying that, if I have the recipe for a meal, I should get that meal for free, or at least at a significant discount, if I order it at the restaurant from which I bought the recipe. Sure, you could make it at home for yourself. You could probably even convince a friend or family member to cook it for you. The restaurant, however, is still going to charge you for the meal if you want to have them make. Also, ignoring that it's not an apples to apples comparison (see the previous portion of this paragraph), where are you getting data that says the majority of consumers are not willing to pay full MSRP for content they have already purchased? Or is this another case of I should know that, when you say majority, you do not mean that data has been collected from a statistically significant population size and greater than 50% indicated this, but instead mean that you and a lot of others, who may or may not represent the majority of consumers, are unwilling?
Lastly, you still haven't addressed why full MSRP for all published material minus your proposed, discounted cost for all published materials should be the life time fee. This seems completely arbitrary without you providing further context on why these numbers represented in this way are an acceptable way to determine pricing. I ask for clarification on this because, as you've presented it, this leads to some other (potentially unintended) concerns. Primarily does this mean that the lifetime fee increases with each new release, making it better to purchase sooner rather than later? Adding another book at $50 MSRP would raise the cost by $10 ($550 -> $600; $430 -> $470; $600 - $470 = $130 = $120 + $10).
I hope they allow us to access campaign management for free and have the books be what is paid for.