The first is if it makes the game subjectively unplayable. Yes, subjectively, not objectively. Figuratively, not literally. I think this is what Mongoose was trying in vain to articulate.
The second is if it's not balanced--that is, if it's outright better (or worse) than another option and doesn't have corresponding restrictions. I think this is what Gryphon keeps trying to say.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Thats just the thing... There is no such thing as balanced in a game designed by mathematics. The people will always use the maths to tell you this or that is just better. Why do you think magic missiles in 3e was always the best spell. Because when people started to check on chances the maths told us that always hitting was just better then not.
There will always be things mathematically better then any other spells. Unless all of your spells are identicals there is no way for you to have balance in your game. Because maths directs it.
My problem are those thinking outside the box which is what this is all about... Basically what people say is " if i do this instead of goto it does better" and proceed in ignoring certain rules or abuse certain words to actually break the spell. Something that is literally the dms job to manage. But yet all those people are saying we should all be rules lawyer and if you tell them otherwise they tell you your fun is wrong.
All im saying here and has been since the beginning is... Mathematically the spell is ******* balanced to the other spells. The people say the math is wrong in ops post literally broke it by abusing entering by just literally putting one foot in and get the heal. I too could say that i get literally thousands of healing by just putting my hand in and out... Much more then the line thing. But if i start to do that then how many other spells are broken... The answer is so many !!!
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Thats just the thing... There is no such thing as balanced in a game designed by mathematics. The people will always use the maths to tell you this or that is just better.
Why do you think magic missiles in 3e was always the best spell. Because when people started to check on chances the maths told us that always hitting was just better then not.
But it's not. The Shield spell completely shuts Magic Missile down. It can't always be the best spell when it has a hard counter.
There will always be things mathematically better then any other spells. Unless all of your spells are identicals there is no way for you to have balance in your game. Because maths directs it.
It's absolutely possible to balance options that aren't identical against each other. That's the premise of just about every fighting game out there.
All im saying here and has been since the beginning is... Mathematically the spell is ******* balanced to the other spells. The people say the math is wrong in ops post literally broke it by abusing entering by just literally putting one foot in and get the heal. I too could say that i get literally thousands of healing by just putting my hand in and out... Much more then the line thing. But if i start to do that then how many other spells are broken... The answer is so many !!!
The spell literally heals 10d6 per person out of combat. No one's thinking outside the box, abusing words or ignoring rules. That's just what the spell does. It's very clearly not balanced against other spells, regardless of whether individual players consider that broken or not.
Inquisitive... You just prooved me you dont know how theory crafting works or how fighting games works...
But ok... I do not feel like trying to make you understand... Clearly you dont understand what the op was talking about in the op post. Because they are not talking about the 10d6 it originally do in the spell they are talking about the fact it doesnt take 6 seconds to travel 5 ft of movement when people form a line and thus the spell out of combat can heal literally 50d6. Because guess what... They actually uses maths to calculate how long in time it takes 1 dude to move 5ft.
Soooo.... 5e and d&d has nothing to do with maths... Your dm never makes you roll. You dont have any stats on your sheet ? Wow id like to try that game.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Why would you want to heal 50d6 of damage in a short rest instead of trying to find a way to take a long rest? Genuine question, because I can't really seem to understand why this conga exploit is so problematic if its actual application is extremely unlikely. If you need 50d6 of healing, it means most probably you just went through a VERY difficult encounter, most probably you have spent a lot of your resources in said encounter, so why spending yet another 2nd level slot (or higher if you are out of 2nd lvl) risking to get into yet another encounter when you are already spent and technically with very limited options? The occasion where you are in such a dire situation that you HAVE to push on, even if you just sustained MASSIVE damage and are out of resources and can only take a short rest, seem to me like a very edge case, and the only real time this spell could actually find his intended use, but otherwise, I do not see it as a likely option if there is the possibility of taking a long rest.
It might just be my mental limit, but I really cannot see how this exploit breaks the game in any way.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
It might just be my mental limit, but I really cannot see how this exploit breaks the game in any way.
I agree with you. I also think there may be two different things being conflated as the same causing a bit of a communication issue on this topic.
That being that "this is broken" was said by the OP, but seemingly not in the way that you and I would use the phrase because it doesn't break the game - but this spell, when used as described by the OP, does outperform other spells of similar nature, which means it might not be appropriately balanced (and I say "might not be" rather than "is not" because I don't think that comparing just this spell to other spells gives the full picture; one healing spell does not the best healer make, as things like other features that influence healing, other restorative spells available as options, and total number of selectable spells all play a part in establishing how good the "best healer option" actually is).
So the spell is "broken" because it outperforms other spells (which I don't expect actually matters all that much, since recovering lost hit points outside of battle is already extremely easy in the game, and this spell doesn't out-do a long rest at restoring HP, or really even out-do what a short rest can get a party at higher levels but much either). And the spell is "not broken" because it doesn't actually cause any problem for game play in practical conditions.
Thats just the thing... There is no such thing as balanced in a game designed by mathematics. The people will always use the maths to tell you this or that is just better. Why do you think magic missiles in 3e was always the best spell. Because when people started to check on chances the maths told us that always hitting was just better then not.
There will always be things mathematically better then any other spells. Unless all of your spells are identicals there is no way for you to have balance in your game. Because maths directs it.
(2+2)^2=64/4=23-7=(((2^2)+2)*3)-2=16.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
So the spell is "broken" because it outperforms other spells (which I don't expect actually matters all that much, since recovering lost hit points outside of battle is already extremely easy in the game, and this spell doesn't out-do a long rest at restoring HP, or really even out-do what a short rest can get a party at higher levels but much either). And the spell is "not broken" because it doesn't actually cause any problem for game play in practical conditions.
The spell is broken because it outperforms other spells when used in a non-intuitive manner outside of the intended use of the spell. I really, really think that last bit is kind of important to reiterate. The spell works within expectations if used in any other manner.
No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater when you just need a very small tweak to close an unintended loophole.
Inquisitive... You just prooved me you dont know how theory crafting works or how fighting games works...
No one makes fighters with identical characters. Not even Divekick works that way. Anyone that's played a few fighting games will tell you they're not all equally balanced.
Actually, you don't even have to go that far. Anyone that's played both 3.5e and 5e will tell you the class balance in 3.5 is atrocious.
But ok... I do not feel like trying to make you understand... Clearly you dont understand what the op was talking about in the op post. Because they are not talking about the 10d6 it originally do in the spell they are talking about the fact it doesnt take 6 seconds to travel 5 ft of movement when people form a line and thus the spell out of combat can heal literally 50d6. Because guess what... They actually uses maths to calculate how long in time it takes 1 dude to move 5ft.
That's not what the OP says. Quote the part you're talking about.
Soooo.... 5e and d&d has nothing to do with maths... Your dm never makes you roll. You dont have any stats on your sheet ? Wow id like to try that game.
If you don't play by the rules, and you've stated numerous times that damage and healing numbers are meaningless in your games and impossible to be imbalanced because you don't use core mechanics, then what's the point of posting in the Rules & Game Mechanics forum?
Aren't there literally MILLIONS of other forums, including several on this very website, that would be more appropriate to hang out on?
Why don't you give the homebrew subforum a try? I think you'll find your "I ignore all those rules in favor of X and Y" contributions to be a lot more appropriate there.
Why would you want to heal 50d6 of damage in a short rest instead of trying to find a way to take a long rest?
Play some Dungeons and Dragons (any edition) and you'll quickly find out.
I know that sounds sarcastic, but I'm dead serious. I promise you that if you give a shot at playing a D&D game, you will VERY quickly realize that you can't take a long rest after every battle. Two sessions, at most, should get you past your "mental break".
Agreed. Let's leave homebrew and houserules where they belong.
By actual mechanics, Healing Spirit does magnitudes more healing than Prayer of Healing and Aura of Vitality, which were previously the two highest healing output spells/abilities by significant margins.
The output is so substantial, that a caster does not need to use it at the highest level to remain useful. A level 9 fighter with 14 constitution will have 76 hit point using the HP averages rule. A level 9 cleric can cast level 5 spells. Yet the level 9 cleric only needs to use a single level 3 Healing Spirit to completely heal the fighter. But he's not just completely healing the fighter. Using that same slot, and no other resources, he's also completely healing himself, the paladin, the ranger, the rogue, the barbarian, and the wizard.
And he's doing it in a single minute.
Spirit Healing isn't twice as good as the next best option. It's not even three times as good. We're talking a 500% output gain over the next best option at equivalent resource cost, and that's with a normal-sized party of 5. With a bigger party it just keeps getting better.
Wouldn't simply adding "each character can only benefit thrice from this spirit" solve all the problems people have?
There's a half-dozen minor changes they could have made, any one of which would have balanced it. Yours is a good one.
The original purpose of the thread was to discuss why this spell wasn't play-tested in the Unearthed Arcana or other releases (like the Elemental Evil spells) like everything else was, and how WotC can improve their QA process by not cutting corners in the future.
This is clearly a spell that was originally designed and tested for combat. The bonus action casting, the spirit's movement, those are all things designed with combat in mind. So, the spell was tested with combat scenarios. While testing, the private playtest group probably just didn't consider out of combat resting. Sadly, it happens to the best of us; to err is human, and all that. I don't think that's cutting corners.
This is clearly a spell that was originally designed and tested for combat. The bonus action casting, the spirit's movement, those are all things designed with combat in mind. So, the spell was tested with combat scenarios. While testing, the private playtest group probably just didn't consider out of combat resting. Sadly, it happens to the best of us; to err is human, and all that. I don't think that's cutting corners.
Sure. We're not calling for executions here.
It's making a note that next time, don't run 95% of content past a significant test group. Run 100% of it by them.
Because it does matter that stuff that gets released is balanced. For every DM that reads the forums and follows discussions like these or reads erratas, there's 4 more that don't. They trust that official content is balanced, and if they find out its not the hard and unfun way. It's not about calling for corporate heads to roll, it's about making a quality tabletop RPG.
Yes, but those same four players who are not invested enough to read forums like this or check on errata are very unlikely to use this spell in a way that causes issues. It is more likely that they will see the spell as a combat trick and the rest of their party is equally less likely to have the tactical chops to make this spell an issue in that arena.
I would bet this spell will, at best, be an issue for a tiny fraction of players, and really only those who care about its out of combat healing potential for some reason or those who are extremely tactical in combat...and those players will have a DM that will manage the situation one way or another.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I think that with the Sage Advice tweets and current implimentation of a spell like that, it's not broken. Between enemy intervention during combat, the fact that most of the heals are lost due to HP limits at such low levels, and healthy DM interpretation (not house-ruleing, mind you, interpretation), this spell serves it's purpose, as Mike proposed. To pull off this kind of spell hacking would be convoluted and require enough focus on execution to completely leave the focus of the overall game behind for the sake of pulling off "a neat healing trick". Even if it was broke, Jeremy provided a perfectly suitable band-aid. If your players ARE trying to pull this stuff (or if you happen to be one of them), they may be missing the point of playing a role-playing game (or perhaps have played for too long, in which case glitch hunting can be fun both ways). I, personally, wouldn't DM for nor be part of a party thats idea of fun is just exploiting rules to avoid the game itself, which I think most folks agree with and, as a result, solves this sort of problem before it begins.
OP's premise of dicussing why a ruling like this made it to a finished product is easy enough to answer. Human error occurs. When designing a game that's played free form and nebulous with rules that can be taken as strict not-to-be-broken commandments, you can't expect the final product to NOT have something a little off in the end. This is why errata and Sage Advice exists in the first place, and of all the things asked in those places, this spell is hardly a grand transgression. It works, and a simple interpretation from a knowledgeable DM solves the problem anyway.
Most of this has just become bickering over things that aren't even on subject anymore. Hope you guys keep that stuff on forums like this and far from your tables. Let's keep to OP's intent here, if a consensus hasn't already been reached.
I, personally, wouldn't DM for nor be part of a party thats idea of fun is just exploiting rules to avoid the game itself, which I think most folks agree with
Thank you for voicing your perspective. Normally I would consider optimizing a healing spell to be an expected part of the game (similar to say: optimizing your attacks on a prone opponent), so your input helps me consider how others might view it.
Would you consider 'Yesterday's Goodberries' as a similar, unacceptable exploit? i.e. using all your spell slots to cast Goodberry (which lasts 24 hrs), then taking a long rest before entering the dungeon.
There are two ways for something to be broken.
The first is if it makes the game subjectively unplayable. Yes, subjectively, not objectively. Figuratively, not literally. I think this is what Mongoose was trying in vain to articulate.
The second is if it's not balanced--that is, if it's outright better (or worse) than another option and doesn't have corresponding restrictions. I think this is what Gryphon keeps trying to say.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Thats just the thing... There is no such thing as balanced in a game designed by mathematics. The people will always use the maths to tell you this or that is just better. Why do you think magic missiles in 3e was always the best spell. Because when people started to check on chances the maths told us that always hitting was just better then not.
There will always be things mathematically better then any other spells. Unless all of your spells are identicals there is no way for you to have balance in your game. Because maths directs it.
My problem are those thinking outside the box which is what this is all about... Basically what people say is " if i do this instead of goto it does better" and proceed in ignoring certain rules or abuse certain words to actually break the spell. Something that is literally the dms job to manage. But yet all those people are saying we should all be rules lawyer and if you tell them otherwise they tell you your fun is wrong.
All im saying here and has been since the beginning is... Mathematically the spell is ******* balanced to the other spells. The people say the math is wrong in ops post literally broke it by abusing entering by just literally putting one foot in and get the heal. I too could say that i get literally thousands of healing by just putting my hand in and out... Much more then the line thing. But if i start to do that then how many other spells are broken... The answer is so many !!!
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
D&D is not a "game designed by mathematics." It's first and foremost a role-playing game: "Class fantasy overrides almost everything else in our design. To us, a class must fulfill its archetype." Only a small percentage of players are interested in what's mechanically optimal.
But it's not. The Shield spell completely shuts Magic Missile down. It can't always be the best spell when it has a hard counter.
It's absolutely possible to balance options that aren't identical against each other. That's the premise of just about every fighting game out there.
Inquisitive... You just prooved me you dont know how theory crafting works or how fighting games works...
But ok... I do not feel like trying to make you understand... Clearly you dont understand what the op was talking about in the op post. Because they are not talking about the 10d6 it originally do in the spell they are talking about the fact it doesnt take 6 seconds to travel 5 ft of movement when people form a line and thus the spell out of combat can heal literally 50d6. Because guess what... They actually uses maths to calculate how long in time it takes 1 dude to move 5ft.
Soooo.... 5e and d&d has nothing to do with maths... Your dm never makes you roll. You dont have any stats on your sheet ? Wow id like to try that game.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
Why would you want to heal 50d6 of damage in a short rest instead of trying to find a way to take a long rest?
Genuine question, because I can't really seem to understand why this conga exploit is so problematic if its actual application is extremely unlikely.
If you need 50d6 of healing, it means most probably you just went through a VERY difficult encounter, most probably you have spent a lot of your resources in said encounter, so why spending yet another 2nd level slot (or higher if you are out of 2nd lvl) risking to get into yet another encounter when you are already spent and technically with very limited options?
The occasion where you are in such a dire situation that you HAVE to push on, even if you just sustained MASSIVE damage and are out of resources and can only take a short rest, seem to me like a very edge case, and the only real time this spell could actually find his intended use, but otherwise, I do not see it as a likely option if there is the possibility of taking a long rest.
It might just be my mental limit, but I really cannot see how this exploit breaks the game in any way.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
No one makes fighters with identical characters. Not even Divekick works that way. Anyone that's played a few fighting games will tell you they're not all equally balanced.
Actually, you don't even have to go that far. Anyone that's played both 3.5e and 5e will tell you the class balance in 3.5 is atrocious.
That's not what the OP says. Quote the part you're talking about.
Lets pull this back on topic to discuss actual spell mechanics, and not each others experience or opinions.
Thank you kindly!
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Agreed. Let's leave homebrew and houserules where they belong.
By actual mechanics, Healing Spirit does magnitudes more healing than Prayer of Healing and Aura of Vitality, which were previously the two highest healing output spells/abilities by significant margins.
The output is so substantial, that a caster does not need to use it at the highest level to remain useful. A level 9 fighter with 14 constitution will have 76 hit point using the HP averages rule. A level 9 cleric can cast level 5 spells. Yet the level 9 cleric only needs to use a single level 3 Healing Spirit to completely heal the fighter. But he's not just completely healing the fighter. Using that same slot, and no other resources, he's also completely healing himself, the paladin, the ranger, the rogue, the barbarian, and the wizard.
And he's doing it in a single minute.
Spirit Healing isn't twice as good as the next best option. It's not even three times as good. We're talking a 500% output gain over the next best option at equivalent resource cost, and that's with a normal-sized party of 5. With a bigger party it just keeps getting better.
Wouldn't simply adding "each character can only benefit thrice from this spirit" solve all the problems people have?
This is clearly a spell that was originally designed and tested for combat. The bonus action casting, the spirit's movement, those are all things designed with combat in mind. So, the spell was tested with combat scenarios. While testing, the private playtest group probably just didn't consider out of combat resting. Sadly, it happens to the best of us; to err is human, and all that. I don't think that's cutting corners.
Yes, but those same four players who are not invested enough to read forums like this or check on errata are very unlikely to use this spell in a way that causes issues. It is more likely that they will see the spell as a combat trick and the rest of their party is equally less likely to have the tactical chops to make this spell an issue in that arena.
I would bet this spell will, at best, be an issue for a tiny fraction of players, and really only those who care about its out of combat healing potential for some reason or those who are extremely tactical in combat...and those players will have a DM that will manage the situation one way or another.
I think that with the Sage Advice tweets and current implimentation of a spell like that, it's not broken. Between enemy intervention during combat, the fact that most of the heals are lost due to HP limits at such low levels, and healthy DM interpretation (not house-ruleing, mind you, interpretation), this spell serves it's purpose, as Mike proposed. To pull off this kind of spell hacking would be convoluted and require enough focus on execution to completely leave the focus of the overall game behind for the sake of pulling off "a neat healing trick". Even if it was broke, Jeremy provided a perfectly suitable band-aid. If your players ARE trying to pull this stuff (or if you happen to be one of them), they may be missing the point of playing a role-playing game (or perhaps have played for too long, in which case glitch hunting can be fun both ways). I, personally, wouldn't DM for nor be part of a party thats idea of fun is just exploiting rules to avoid the game itself, which I think most folks agree with and, as a result, solves this sort of problem before it begins.
OP's premise of dicussing why a ruling like this made it to a finished product is easy enough to answer. Human error occurs. When designing a game that's played free form and nebulous with rules that can be taken as strict not-to-be-broken commandments, you can't expect the final product to NOT have something a little off in the end. This is why errata and Sage Advice exists in the first place, and of all the things asked in those places, this spell is hardly a grand transgression. It works, and a simple interpretation from a knowledgeable DM solves the problem anyway.
Most of this has just become bickering over things that aren't even on subject anymore. Hope you guys keep that stuff on forums like this and far from your tables. Let's keep to OP's intent here, if a consensus hasn't already been reached.
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