Hello, I have a level 14 Sorcerer/Draconic bloodline. I am thinking of dipping into 3 levels of Bard/College of Eloquence before taking Sorcerer levels 15-17 and looking for feedback.
I'd be going for a sorcerer build that can debuff an enemy's saving throw (Unsettling Words, Bane, or Mind Sliver [which is a Sorcerer spell, not Bard]) and then pump out some nasty spells in the same turn. Of course my hesitation is that I won't get the higher level sorcerer spells until later in the game and I will miss out completely on the level 18 Draconic Presence feature and Sorcerer's final ability (which doesn't seem super great to me, but tell me if I'm missing something there). My fantasy with this Sorcerer is a weather controlling storm pirate, and not many of the level 8 or 9 sorcerer spells really synergize with that. That's to say spells like Dominate Monster or Gate, or Wish don't really match the vibe I'm going for with her sorceress abilities. Some of the damage dealing spells are tempting, but they do so much area affect that I find something more precise usually works better for not hurting allies.
Going up to level 3 Eloquence Bard will give the sorceress some versatility and bonuses to charisma skills that she uses a lot; Jack of all trades, Expertise, Silvertongue, extra skill (any suggestions? She has Athletics, Insight, Perception and Intimidation). Then finishing up with Sorcerer levels 15-17 for that last ASI and another Metamagic. I am wondering of people think it's worth to give up early access to level 8 & 9 spells in exchange for the Bard features and access to Bard spells like Cure Wounds or Disguise Self. I mean, a glass cannon that can heal herself sounds pretty cool, right?
Hello, I have a level 14 Sorcerer/Draconic bloodline. I am thinking of dipping into 3 levels of Bard/College of Eloquence before taking Sorcerer levels 15-17 and looking for feedback.
I'd be going for a sorcerer build that can debuff an enemy's saving throw (Unsettling Words, Bane, or Mind Sliver [which is a Sorcerer spell, not Bard]) and then pump out some nasty spells in the same turn. Of course my hesitation is that I won't get the higher level sorcerer spells until later in the game and I will miss out completely on the level 18 Draconic Presence feature and Sorcerer's final ability (which doesn't seem super great to me, but tell me if I'm missing something there). My fantasy with this Sorcerer is a weather controlling storm pirate, and not many of the level 8 or 9 sorcerer spells really synergize with that. That's to say spells like Dominate Monster or Gate, or Wish don't really match the vibe I'm going for with her sorceress abilities. Some of the damage dealing spells are tempting, but they do so much area affect that I find something more precise usually works better for not hurting allies.
Going up to level 3 Eloquence Bard will give the sorceress some versatility and bonuses to charisma skills that she uses a lot; Jack of all trades, Expertise, Silvertongue, extra skill (any suggestions? She has Athletics, Insight, Perception and Intimidation). Then finishing up with Sorcerer levels 15-17 for that last ASI and another Metamagic. I am wondering of people think it's worth to give up early access to level 8 & 9 spells in exchange for the Bard features and access to Bard spells like Cure Wounds or Disguise Self. I mean, a glass cannon that can heal herself sounds pretty cool, right?
There's two ways to think about this. One way is to think about the mechanics of what is happening and to consider what you'd be losing by multiclassing, which is delaying access to higher level spells and abilities, versus what you are envisioning for your character. If your character won't use certain abilities, getting access to them won't matter. Getting access to bard abilities and spells that you know you'll use is much better than getting access to something you'll never use. However, you may not feel as if you've gained enough compared to your single class allies. That's the mechanical tradeoff.
The other way to think about it is to think of your character not as a sorcerer that may or may not multiclass bard, but to just consider your character and what skills they would need and what the story directs. This aspect concentrates on the fun of doing stuff within the story as opposed to doing stuff mechanically. Neither way is wrong, but either way can be the wrong way for an individual to play.
I could see you being in either camp with the way that you were worried about giving up some power, but also with the way that you were concerned about not really gaining something. I'm leaning more towards thinking that you should multiclass because it seems like you're more worried about feeling like you've added something that would be fun for you to use.
My question is if you wanted to be a sorcerer that controls the weather, why on earth did you not go with a Storm Sorcerer? It gives you a literal ability to control the weather at level 6. And the level 18 ability is a lot more attractive as you get immunity to thunder and lightning, get a fly speed of 60, and can reduce your fly speed to allow up to 8 other people to fly with you.
Yeah, my DM asked me the same question, and I think the storm sorcerer abilities are very cool, but didn't seem as practical or useful as the draconic lineage for the character. Blue dragon ancestry beefs up her lightning damage, the draconic resistance is super helpful for a squishy sorcerer and the ability to fly at will at level 14 is awesome and on brand, all that edged out the storm sorcerer abilities. She is also a mark of the storm half elf, so she got some bonus storm abilities there too. The storm sorcerer abilities do a lot to help out with close combat, and being a sorcerer in close combat seemed tougher than having her rain down lightning from a safe distance.
If your character won't use certain abilities, getting access to them won't matter. Getting access to bard abilities and spells that you know you'll use is much better than getting access to something you'll never use. However, you may not feel as if you've gained enough compared to your single class allies. That's the mechanical tradeoff.
This is a really good point. Frames it in a way that makes a lot of sense.
I don't know enough about end game Sorcerer abilities, so have little to offer other than a rehash of the above. I can speak on the Monk, however, and as an Open Hand, I want 17 for sure and the rest, in my setting and group, is trash, so if we go beyond, I would most certainly MC, likely to Rogue, possibly Ranger. As others point out, you really need to determine if missing the final couple levels will matter. Looking at the Sorc table, in MY eyes, you're not missing anything of note for 18, 19 and 20, so MC might well make sense. You won't be missing the final level spell, because you get that at 17, which under your plan, would be char level 20. Again, it depends on what you need or want from the character. Myself, I see several classes I'd jump from by 11 or so, because there's nothing after that I would want or need.
A lot of folks will tell you MC always sets you behind due to missing x, y and z, but mechanically, a few levels into another class won't hurt much at end game, aside from some very niche circumstances.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
From a min-max perspective you are gaining more than you realize. First and foremost, you instantly gain 4 extra spells, although of 1st level, and 2 more as you level up bard. If you have chosen wisely, i.e. prepared ahead of time, you should have been replacing some Sorcerer 1st and 2nd level spells, as you know you will have a lot of extra 1st and 2nd level spells. Not to mention 2 more cantrips, which can really help out.
So you will be ending up as someone that knows 21 spells rather than 15, and 8 cantrips.
The healing is nice, but lets be honest here, the real benefit is getting those key bard spells that most do not get: Faerie Fire, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, and of course Silence.
All of these can be surprisingly useful, even at high levels.
Thanks everybody, y'all make some great points that helped my decision. I'm gonna do it, super excited for the new skills and now I'm just eager to get to that level 3 bard!
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Hello, I have a level 14 Sorcerer/Draconic bloodline. I am thinking of dipping into 3 levels of Bard/College of Eloquence before taking Sorcerer levels 15-17 and looking for feedback.
I'd be going for a sorcerer build that can debuff an enemy's saving throw (Unsettling Words, Bane, or Mind Sliver [which is a Sorcerer spell, not Bard]) and then pump out some nasty spells in the same turn. Of course my hesitation is that I won't get the higher level sorcerer spells until later in the game and I will miss out completely on the level 18 Draconic Presence feature and Sorcerer's final ability (which doesn't seem super great to me, but tell me if I'm missing something there). My fantasy with this Sorcerer is a weather controlling storm pirate, and not many of the level 8 or 9 sorcerer spells really synergize with that. That's to say spells like Dominate Monster or Gate, or Wish don't really match the vibe I'm going for with her sorceress abilities. Some of the damage dealing spells are tempting, but they do so much area affect that I find something more precise usually works better for not hurting allies.
Going up to level 3 Eloquence Bard will give the sorceress some versatility and bonuses to charisma skills that she uses a lot; Jack of all trades, Expertise, Silvertongue, extra skill (any suggestions? She has Athletics, Insight, Perception and Intimidation). Then finishing up with Sorcerer levels 15-17 for that last ASI and another Metamagic. I am wondering of people think it's worth to give up early access to level 8 & 9 spells in exchange for the Bard features and access to Bard spells like Cure Wounds or Disguise Self. I mean, a glass cannon that can heal herself sounds pretty cool, right?
There's two ways to think about this. One way is to think about the mechanics of what is happening and to consider what you'd be losing by multiclassing, which is delaying access to higher level spells and abilities, versus what you are envisioning for your character. If your character won't use certain abilities, getting access to them won't matter. Getting access to bard abilities and spells that you know you'll use is much better than getting access to something you'll never use. However, you may not feel as if you've gained enough compared to your single class allies. That's the mechanical tradeoff.
The other way to think about it is to think of your character not as a sorcerer that may or may not multiclass bard, but to just consider your character and what skills they would need and what the story directs. This aspect concentrates on the fun of doing stuff within the story as opposed to doing stuff mechanically. Neither way is wrong, but either way can be the wrong way for an individual to play.
I could see you being in either camp with the way that you were worried about giving up some power, but also with the way that you were concerned about not really gaining something. I'm leaning more towards thinking that you should multiclass because it seems like you're more worried about feeling like you've added something that would be fun for you to use.
My question is if you wanted to be a sorcerer that controls the weather, why on earth did you not go with a Storm Sorcerer? It gives you a literal ability to control the weather at level 6. And the level 18 ability is a lot more attractive as you get immunity to thunder and lightning, get a fly speed of 60, and can reduce your fly speed to allow up to 8 other people to fly with you.
Yeah, my DM asked me the same question, and I think the storm sorcerer abilities are very cool, but didn't seem as practical or useful as the draconic lineage for the character. Blue dragon ancestry beefs up her lightning damage, the draconic resistance is super helpful for a squishy sorcerer and the ability to fly at will at level 14 is awesome and on brand, all that edged out the storm sorcerer abilities. She is also a mark of the storm half elf, so she got some bonus storm abilities there too. The storm sorcerer abilities do a lot to help out with close combat, and being a sorcerer in close combat seemed tougher than having her rain down lightning from a safe distance.
This is a really good point. Frames it in a way that makes a lot of sense.
Thanks!
I don't know enough about end game Sorcerer abilities, so have little to offer other than a rehash of the above. I can speak on the Monk, however, and as an Open Hand, I want 17 for sure and the rest, in my setting and group, is trash, so if we go beyond, I would most certainly MC, likely to Rogue, possibly Ranger. As others point out, you really need to determine if missing the final couple levels will matter. Looking at the Sorc table, in MY eyes, you're not missing anything of note for 18, 19 and 20, so MC might well make sense. You won't be missing the final level spell, because you get that at 17, which under your plan, would be char level 20. Again, it depends on what you need or want from the character. Myself, I see several classes I'd jump from by 11 or so, because there's nothing after that I would want or need.
A lot of folks will tell you MC always sets you behind due to missing x, y and z, but mechanically, a few levels into another class won't hurt much at end game, aside from some very niche circumstances.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
From a min-max perspective you are gaining more than you realize. First and foremost, you instantly gain 4 extra spells, although of 1st level, and 2 more as you level up bard. If you have chosen wisely, i.e. prepared ahead of time, you should have been replacing some Sorcerer 1st and 2nd level spells, as you know you will have a lot of extra 1st and 2nd level spells. Not to mention 2 more cantrips, which can really help out.
So you will be ending up as someone that knows 21 spells rather than 15, and 8 cantrips.
The healing is nice, but lets be honest here, the real benefit is getting those key bard spells that most do not get: Faerie Fire, Dissonant Whispers, Calm Emotions, and of course Silence.
All of these can be surprisingly useful, even at high levels.
Thanks everybody, y'all make some great points that helped my decision. I'm gonna do it, super excited for the new skills and now I'm just eager to get to that level 3 bard!