I find it odd that the updated "tools required" feature says:
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way.
This seems to mean that you can only use the supplies with spells that have an "M" component.
But then alchemical savant says:
Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a +4 bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage.
None of the cantrips with those damage types aside green flame blade have an "M" component.
I find it odd that the updated "tools required" feature says:
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way.
This seems to mean that you can only use the supplies with spells that have an "M" component.
But then alchemical savant says:
Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a +4 bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage.
None of the cantrips with those damage types aside green flame blade have an "M" component.
Nor do healing word or cure wounds.
So this feature doesnt really do much...
You're misreading the feature.
As an artificer, every spell you cast has a material (M) component; even if it normally would not. And in the case of Green-Flame Blade, you need both the weapon (because it has an associated cost) and artisan's tools in hand.
Doesn't this mean that RAW it is impossible for Alchemist to cast GFB without warcaster feat? You have to have the weapon and the artisans tools, and still have a free hand for the somatic component. Also means it is absolutely impossible to cast GFB whilst also holding a shield. Oh, I guess Thri-Kreen can manage that, but that seems like a very specific restriction.
It's the "whilst also holding a shield" that's the main issue.
For an Artificer you need a spellcasting focus, for Alchemical Savant that focus needs to be Alchemist supplies, for GFB you need a weapon (worth at least 1 sp). To benefit from a shield you need to wield it. That's three things to wield with two hands to hold them. It's one of the reasons the Alchemist's features are kind of an awkward mess.
So you have to choose between shield and weapon (which means no Alchemical Savant bonus), shield and focus (no GFB), or weapon and focus (no +2 to AC).
However, as I understand it the War Caster feat doesn't fix the issue. It enables you to fulfill somatic components, it says nothing about fulfilling material components. An Artificer needs a spellcasting focus for all their spells so at no point do they need either of their hands empty to cast.
Now a DM might consider the Improvised Weapon rules and let you treat your shield as the weapon necessary for GFB by treating it as an improvised weapon (STR based, 1d4 damage die, without proficiency bonus unless you took Tavern Brawler). Granted the same logic could also apply to using the alchemist's supplies as an improvised weapon. Both shields and alchemist's supplies are worth more than 1 sp.
As I understand it the reason why the blade cantrips got that "weapon worth at least" requirement was to prevent players from reasoning that their component pouch contains weapons and pulling a greatsword out of their component pouch. But it seems an awkward solution to that particular cheese.
I think you actually can't cast GFB at all whilst holding a weapon and shield - spellcasting as Alchemist states that you must be holding a tool:
"You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)"
So I see the options as 1) weapon plus alchemist supplies, get alchemical savant but can't use a shield or 2) Be a Thri-Kreen or some other race that has four arms 3) use your alchemist supplies as an improvised weapon?
Any artificer can use an infused item as a spellcasting focus so say a sword with Enhanced Weapon or a Shield with Enhanced Defense would allow the Artificer to cast spells with a sword and shield in hand if one of them bears an infusion.
Granted that doesn't help with Alchemical Savant which doubles down on alchemist's supplies being the focus.
Alchemists aren't "good" at using magic weapons. That's Battlesmiths.
Alchemists don't make very good gishes, like many casters. Shield + Alchemical Supplies is often their "best" combat loadout, and they'd fight with regular cantrips over blade cantrips. And, for fun, they are one of the few types of Artificer that can use an All Purpose Tool in that "best loadout" (because it can be their Alchemist Supplies), which is a little nice.
They aren't terrible at weapons though, just no multi attack. Green flame blade really helps with that as they start adding two stats to damagae; and arguablly they'll want decent dex anyway. OR later on str giving item.
The difference is, they aren't a primary combatant, they're the gap fill class.
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I find it odd that the updated "tools required" feature says:
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way.
This seems to mean that you can only use the supplies with spells that have an "M" component.
But then alchemical savant says:
Whenever you cast a spell using your alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus, you gain a +4 bonus to one roll of the spell. That roll must restore hit points or be a damage roll that deals acid, fire, necrotic, or poison damage.
None of the cantrips with those damage types aside green flame blade have an "M" component.
Nor do healing word or cure wounds.
So this feature doesnt really do much...
You're misreading the feature.
As an artificer, every spell you cast has a material (M) component; even if it normally would not. And in the case of Green-Flame Blade, you need both the weapon (because it has an associated cost) and artisan's tools in hand.
Old thread but still relevant I think.
Doesn't this mean that RAW it is impossible for Alchemist to cast GFB without warcaster feat? You have to have the weapon and the artisans tools, and still have a free hand for the somatic component. Also means it is absolutely impossible to cast GFB whilst also holding a shield. Oh, I guess Thri-Kreen can manage that, but that seems like a very specific restriction.
That's kind of wild, and doesn't seem intended.
It's the "whilst also holding a shield" that's the main issue.
For an Artificer you need a spellcasting focus, for Alchemical Savant that focus needs to be Alchemist supplies, for GFB you need a weapon (worth at least 1 sp). To benefit from a shield you need to wield it. That's three things to wield with two hands to hold them. It's one of the reasons the Alchemist's features are kind of an awkward mess.
So you have to choose between shield and weapon (which means no Alchemical Savant bonus), shield and focus (no GFB), or weapon and focus (no +2 to AC).
However, as I understand it the War Caster feat doesn't fix the issue. It enables you to fulfill somatic components, it says nothing about fulfilling material components. An Artificer needs a spellcasting focus for all their spells so at no point do they need either of their hands empty to cast.
Now a DM might consider the Improvised Weapon rules and let you treat your shield as the weapon necessary for GFB by treating it as an improvised weapon (STR based, 1d4 damage die, without proficiency bonus unless you took Tavern Brawler). Granted the same logic could also apply to using the alchemist's supplies as an improvised weapon. Both shields and alchemist's supplies are worth more than 1 sp.
As I understand it the reason why the blade cantrips got that "weapon worth at least" requirement was to prevent players from reasoning that their component pouch contains weapons and pulling a greatsword out of their component pouch. But it seems an awkward solution to that particular cheese.
I think you actually can't cast GFB at all whilst holding a weapon and shield - spellcasting as Alchemist states that you must be holding a tool:
"You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)"
So I see the options as 1) weapon plus alchemist supplies, get alchemical savant but can't use a shield or 2) Be a Thri-Kreen or some other race that has four arms 3) use your alchemist supplies as an improvised weapon?
None of these are particularly satisfactory!
Any artificer can use an infused item as a spellcasting focus so say a sword with Enhanced Weapon or a Shield with Enhanced Defense would allow the Artificer to cast spells with a sword and shield in hand if one of them bears an infusion.
Granted that doesn't help with Alchemical Savant which doubles down on alchemist's supplies being the focus.
Ah good point!
Ironically doesn’t help if you have a magic weapon, which we are supposed to be good at using.
GDI alchemist I want to love this subclass but it keeps frustrating me!
Thanks for the interactions, frustration not aimed at you, I’m just kinda shaking my fist at the sky! :)
Alchemists aren't "good" at using magic weapons. That's Battlesmiths.
Alchemists don't make very good gishes, like many casters. Shield + Alchemical Supplies is often their "best" combat loadout, and they'd fight with regular cantrips over blade cantrips. And, for fun, they are one of the few types of Artificer that can use an All Purpose Tool in that "best loadout" (because it can be their Alchemist Supplies), which is a little nice.
They aren't terrible at weapons though, just no multi attack. Green flame blade really helps with that as they start adding two stats to damagae; and arguablly they'll want decent dex anyway. OR later on str giving item.
The difference is, they aren't a primary combatant, they're the gap fill class.