Yes they make a wisdom saving throw. The DC being 8+Proficiency+Constitution modifier. I thought since I am going to make the DC higher I might as well make the resulting consequence a bit weaker since I don't think they intended for Intimidating Presence to be that powerful(Unless you are one of the few Berserkers that decided to raise your Charisma to a degree where the feature would become strong).
We were more concerned with Frenzy to be honest since we felt the price for using it was too steep, but still the ability was strong so we did not want it to be something that could be used freely, so we opted for it to be a resource that you could tap into once at level 3 and ultimately three times at level 12 before recovering your resources through a long rest.
As for balancing issue, I think berserker is very balanced in a no-feat-allowed campaign. Bonus action attack isn’t something easy to get for classes with extra attack feature, thus exhaustion may be considered a fair trade-off. The main issue is that there are a number of feats giving bonus action attack (polearm master for example), so this subclass is totally overshadowed by those builds with both extra attack and a feat providing bonus action attack.
An argument could be made for no feat campaigns, but most tables I have been to(anecdotal evidence I know) and all games I run myself include feats. Even without feats I would argue to simply have Frenzy be a limited resource instead of causing exhaustion, but that is just our table's preference.
I can see the point for balance once no features are allowed, yet features are such a nice addition to add flavor to your character, I see little people opting to leave it out.
I like the approach Bosmerja's group has used to limit the Frenzy power because it simplifies the use of it and limits it's functionality without penalizing the character for using it's defining feature.
With the exhaustion attached to Frenzy it feels like this subclass is restricting your barbarian to combat only because having to work with disadvantage on all ability checks can be really harsh. And having your speed halved is like being the ball & chain for the rest of the party or you need to have a cart to drag the Berserker with you.
If all you want is the 3rd level berserker so you can use a bonus action to make a single melee weapon attack? There's other options. If we took a feat, great weapon master and polearm master come to mind, both do more than give you the possible chance to use your bonus action as a attack. There's also the magical item, boots of haste, these basically give you the haste spell.
With all this said, is it worth taking a point of exhaustion just to do something you can do with access through feats and magical items? Or would you rather have resistance to everything but pyhicic? Or take zealot and become essentially unkillable at 14th level....
All this said, I do think some alternatives to the berserker are rather reasonable.
The berserk doesn't bring all that much to the table and doesn't feel like your being a berserk.
The level 3 ability is underpowered because yes it does give a player a free bonus attack for 1 minute in combat, but look at the cons of that, A level of exhaustion witch will require a long rest or greater restoration, if used more than once before a long rest you will need multiple long rests to not die. On top of that there few classes that get to make a attack as a bonus action: monks, war clerics, moon durids, any human variant that picks great weapon master or polearm expert and anyone who is using two weapon fighting.
Now how can you make it better and on par with all the stuff above, simple
1. Make it a once per short reat ability or X amount of uses X = con modifier
2. Change the effects to in place of a bonus action attack, make it a additional action to witch you can only use a attack action like a mini haste effect
3. If you want to give it a negative take another thing from haste, player cant move or take actions for X turns after there rage ends
Not only does it keep the old additional attack it will make you also make it more versatile letting the barbarian use there first action to dash, dodge or take any other action they want and still get a attack in but if your using two weapons it will feel like a crazed berserk, giving the player up to 4 attacks later on at level 5 much like monks
Frenzy is a great ability if you just reserve it for the most important encounter of the day. This is less true if you have other uses for your bonus action, such as Polearm Master or dual wielding, but if you are rocking a greataxe, greatsword, or maul, you can expect to be the deadliest combatant on the field of battle for at least one encounter per day with Frenzy, which is great. If you have other encounters after this, you can rely on your buddies to make the important ability checks. You'll be just fine, and before you know it, your wizard buddy is putting up his Leomund's Tiny Hut so you can take a long rest.
The other ability that Berserker's get which makes the other Barbs green with envy is Mindless Rage. Barbarians are exceptionally vulnerable to charm and fear effects. While the Bear Totem Barb is quailing in fear and soiling his loincloth at the feet of the big nasty dragon, the Berserker is up in its face chopping away with a manic grin on his face. And what did the Bear Totem Barb get at level six? A better carrying capacity? Yeah, that's a nice ribbon!
Retaliation is one of the best abilities in the game if you want to put the serious hurt on your enemies. A Totem Barb cannot even approach the damage of a Berserker once they get Retaliation.
Berserkers are just fine. Better than fine, even. The bad rap they get is entirely a product of group think. Everyone sees Frenzy, zeroes in on the word "exhaustion", compares it to the level 3 ability of the Bear Totem Warrior, and then dismisses everything else about both subclasses. I find it quite funny!
Actively wrong on all accounts, in a game I was in we had a paladin die because of one level of exhaustion, had to make a athletics check and failed as a result he fell to his death.
Also double carrying weight is really REALLY strong, littlery it enables the user to hold down or life huge creatures more so if you have the powerful build feature or brawny feat.
Also fear for barbarian is bot really effective because while you cant move away from a creature but you can ignore the disadvantage with reckless, and charm effects aren't effective in combat due to the fact creature have advantage on most charm effects when the thing trying to charm them is actively hostile and I said in other posts if you have polearm master, great weapon master you get the bonus attack anyways or if you take ONE level in war cleric you get the bonus attack for free, the cost is WAY to high because what if you have more than one dangerous encounter in one day, the only thing you bring to teh table is one bonus attack, if all you care about is more attacks make a monk or fighter. Otherwise berserk brings nothing to the table, it needs heavy reversion that play into being a bear shirt, and the battle trance that comes with it
maybe you could remove 1 point of exhaustion caused by frenzy on a short rest? Or ignore the effects of exhaustion while raging? These ideas aren't mine at all but could help with the issue.
Actively wrong on all accounts, in a game I was in we had a paladin die because of one level of exhaustion, had to make a athletics check and failed as a result he fell to his death.
Also double carrying weight is really REALLY strong, littlery it enables the user to hold down or life huge creatures more so if you have the powerful build feature or brawny feat.
Also fear for barbarian is bot really effective because while you cant move away from a creature but you can ignore the disadvantage with reckless, and charm effects aren't effective in combat due to the fact creature have advantage on most charm effects when the thing trying to charm them is actively hostile and I said in other posts if you have polearm master, great weapon master you get the bonus attack anyways or if you take ONE level in war cleric you get the bonus attack for free, the cost is WAY to high because what if you have more than one dangerous encounter in one day, the only thing you bring to teh table is one bonus attack, if all you care about is more attacks make a monk or fighter. Otherwise berserk brings nothing to the table, it needs heavy reversion that play into being a bear shirt, and the battle trance that comes with it
Lot of generalization fallacies, falsehoods, and hyperbole here. Ah, the age of Trumpian truthiness! I'd suggest you actually go play a Berserker for a game or two, and then come back and tell us how debilitating it was. I bet you don't die as the result of a failed ability check unless you're extremely unlucky or you do something stupid. Almost everything that kills you in this game is going to do it with an attack roll or a saving throw. If you're really worried about it, ask a friend to use the Aid action on you to cancel out the disadvantage. Guidance helps too. Finally, try to save your Frenzy ability for the last big battle of the day.
If you read through my post, you'll see that we do agree on one thing: Frenzy is best used when you don't have a lot of other uses for your bonus action. In the real world, not everyone wants to use a polearm or wield two weapons though, and GWM by itself does not grant you a bonus action attack every round, except against low HP mobs. Against a high HP boss, you'll be lucky to get a single bonus action attack from GWM. Bonus action attacks combined with Rage damage, Reckless Attack, and Great Weapon Master pack an awesome punch. Frenzy lets you do it every single round for an entire combat. It is a game-changer for that combat, comparable to Oath of Enmity, for instance, but packing an even bigger punch when combined with Reckless Attack.
You are also overgeneralizing about charm and fear effects. Go pick a random monster that you know has a charm effect, like a Harpy, and go read its entry in the MM. You'll see that it doesn't grant advantage just because you are hostile. Nor does the Suggestion spell, nor Otto's Irresistible Dance, nor any of a number of other spells which cannot be used against targets that are immune to charm effects. Also, read up on the Fear spell while you're at it. It doesn't just impose the frightened condition on you, it forces you to use the Dash action every turn while you are frightened. Furthermore, smart dragons won't just stand next to you when they're using Frightful Presence. It has a range of like 120 ft. for adult dragons. At best, you'll have stand back and throw javelins at it, and you can't use Reckless attack with your ranged attacks. There are a ton of nasty abilities in the game which Mindless Rage helps you avoid.
2. In saying the only thing it brings to the table is a bonus attack in exchange for a level of examination, meaning that if you to be on par with other barbarians you need to use it as much as you can witch equals death, a long rest only heals off one level of exhaustion
3.if you want to get really technical with it, most games you will only be getting to around 5-10, 15 at most, if you really want that extra attack just take one level in war cleric, then you get all the benefits of all the other barbarian classes and the bonus action attack, making berserk useless
4.if your going max level you will be getting into combat with extremely high CR creatures at all times and because you can't really do anything but a bonus attack at the cost of exhaustion you will die very fast, and there are quite a few magic items that will just give you the bonus action attack.
Whatever you say or however you try to spin it the level of exhaustion is much much to high a price to pay and you really want the bonus action attack for barbarian you can get it from other classes, feats, items and so on
2. In saying the only thing it brings to the table is a bonus attack in exchange for a level of examination, meaning that if you to be on par with other barbarians you need to use it as much as you can witch equals death, a long rest only heals off one level of exhaustion
3.if you want to get really technical with it, most games you will only be getting to around 5-10, 15 at most, if you really want that extra attack just take one level in war cleric, then you get all the benefits of all the other barbarian classes and the bonus action attack, making berserk useless
4.if your going max level you will be getting into combat with extremely high CR creatures at all times and because you can't really do anything but a bonus attack at the cost of exhaustion you will die very fast, and there are quite a few magic items that will just give you the bonus action attack.
Whatever you say or however you try to spin it the level of exhaustion is much much to high a price to pay and you really want the bonus action attack for barbarian you can get it from other classes, feats, items and so on
How are you getting a level of War Cleric and how is your Wisdom high enough to grant you a bonus action attack every round for an entire combat? You need a Wisdom of 13 to multiclass into Cleric, which might be doable, but it's very doubtful that you will have a high enough Wisdom to get more than one or two bonus action attacks per day. You need a 16 Wisdom to get 3/day, an 18 Wisdom to get 4/day, and a 20 Wisdom to get 5/day. There's no way you should be prioritizing your Wisdom when you should instead be focusing on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
Also, ASIs come at a premium for Barbarians since they only get 5, and they want to cap out both Strength and Constitution if they can. That usually leaves you with a single ASI left over for a feat, especially during the key levels that you mention. If you are playing a variant human, you can afford to pick up both Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master, while still capping out your key ability scores. Everyone else has some tough choices to make. My Mountain Dwarf Berserker picked up GWM at level 4, and then capped out his Strength by level 12. No room for both Polearm Master and GWM. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to use a polearm any way, except in theorycrafting land. The vast majority of barbarians I've seen wield a maul, a greataxe, or a greatsword. For such builds, Berserker is a solid choice.
Finally, if there are some items that grant you a bonus action attack every round for an entire combat, I would love to hear about them, since I'm not aware of any. Furhermore, in most games, you don't get to choose your magic items.
The problem I have with people who proclaim that a level of exhaustion is too a high price to pay for kicking ass in one encounter per day is that I'm 99% certain none of these people have ever actually played a Berserker. They're just theory-crafting. In my opinion, every post from a person who portrays themselves as an expert on Berserkers without ever having played one should come with a big disclaimer as a public service to consumers who would otherwise miss out on a great opportunity to play a fun and effective character.
Dipping one level into fighter and taking the Two Weapon Fighting style is better than Berserker if you are looking for a bonus attack every round. Then take the Duel Weilder feat which you can do at first level if your human, use two battle axes and dish out crazy damage. Go Bear totem and effectively double your hit points as the only time you will take full damage is against Psychic Damage.
Dipping one level into fighter and taking the Two Weapon Fighting style is better than Berserker if you are looking for a bonus attack every round. Then take the Duel Weilder feat which you can do at first level if your human, use two battle axes and dish out crazy damage. Go Bear totem and effectively double your hit points as the only time you will take full damage is against Psychic Damage.
But that is just my opinion
Two Weapon Fighting is very solid at low levels, but Great Weapon Master overtakes it once you get to level 5 or so, especially with Reckless Attack. That's the case even without the extra bonus action attack from Frenzy. That +10 damage per hit really adds up!
One thing in Frenzy's favor as compared to other barbarian abilities is that it frees up your action. Obviously other barbarians can use their action the same as you, but you get to do that and make an attack.
I agree that a great weapon is better once you get Great Weapon Master and the extra attack at 5th level, however it has been my experience that Frenzied Rage just does not get much use after 5th level. The disadvantage of Exhaustion is just not worth one encounter's worth of extra attacks.
In my last campaign, we had a Bear Barbarian with two weapons and a Beserker with great weapon and at the end of the day, the great weapon was better damage, just not significantly so. The great weapon might have pulled ahead if he had Frenzied more, but it only got used about a dozen times over the course of 16 months of gaming. Where the Bear pulled ahead was in the amount of punishment he could take. He was a beast and just never went down.
In our current game, there is a Zealot with a great weapon and Great Weapon Master and she is consistently dealing much higher damage than any other character in the group.
I agree that a great weapon is better once you get Great Weapon Master and the extra attack at 5th level, however it has been my experience that Frenzied Rage just does not get much use after 5th level. The disadvantage of Exhaustion is just not worth one encounter's worth of extra attacks.
In my last campaign, we had a Bear Barbarian with two weapons and a Beserker with great weapon and at the end of the day, the great weapon was better damage, just not significantly so. The great weapon might have pulled ahead if he had Frenzied more, but it only got used about a dozen times over the course of 16 months of gaming. Where the Bear pulled ahead was in the amount of punishment he could take. He was a beast and just never went down.
In our current game, there is a Zealot with a great weapon and Great Weapon Master and she is consistently dealing much higher damage than any other character in the group.
Everyone's mileage varies though
I've played a Mountain Dwarf Berserker from levels 1 to 14. I save up Frenzy for the big encounter each day. I am a beast when I use it. I agree that Bear Totem resistance is just about the best ability in the game. I am not so impressed with the 1d6 + half your level damage once per round from the Path of the Zealot. It's decent at the lower levels of play, but I don't think it holds up at higher levels. The scaling is just not very good. It's not a bad ability mind you, but when rogues are getting +10d6 per round from Sneak Attack, all you get is 1d6+10, which is less than +4d6 on average.
But with Rage Bonus and Great weapon master it is a lot more than just 1d6+10. A maul would be doing 3d6 + 24 and another 2d6 + 14 with your second attack so 5d6 + 38 per round. Not as many dice but far more consistent damage and in more than a single battle each day.
I think it just comes down to what you are looking for in the abilities. I personally don't like a mechanic that limits your abilities by creating a penalty for using it. If it were simply limited in the same manner as all the other abilities (ie once per rest or what ever) it would not bother me anywhere near as much.
actually the zelot damage can far outdo the extra attack damage, I am in a high level game and the extra 1d6+10 radiant is wrecking face, also whenever he dies we can just auto res him witch is alot, beserker gets shafted when it comes to that because if you get knocked down your rage ends witch means you lose frenzy and have to do it again once you are on your feet so that is another level of exhaustion. like I said before the exhaustion for the extra attack is not worth it, if you really want 3 attacks just take one level in war cleric, be a monk with one level in barbarian or just be a fighter....or take pole arm master....or great weapon master...or two weapon fighting...or moon druid
But with Rage Bonus and Great weapon master it is a lot more than just 1d6+10. A maul would be doing 3d6 + 24 and another 2d6 + 14 with your second attack so 5d6 + 38 per round. Not as many dice but far more consistent damage and in more than a single battle each day.
I think it just comes down to what you are looking for in the abilities. I personally don't like a mechanic that limits your abilities by creating a penalty for using it. If it were simply limited in the same manner as all the other abilities (ie once per rest or what ever) it would not bother me anywhere near as much.
I agree. It’s a classic tortoise vs. hare trade-off. Do you want to be able to nova spectacularly for one encounter per day, or are you willing to settle for less damage, as long as you can apply it to every encounter? It’s a matter of taste but it’s also a matter of how many encounters you expect to have in a typical day. I've seen many campaigns where the group averages only 3 or 4 encounters per day. Outside of a dungeon, it’s typically less than that. Inside a dungeon, it can be more. I’ve never been involved in a game that follows the DMG guideline of 6 to 8 encounters in a day, though I assume such games exist. If you are having that many encounters per day, the ability to nova once per day becomes less attractive.
I’d like to address the blanket contention so many people seem to make about Frenzy, which is that one level of exhaustion is so utterly debilitating as to make the ability worthless. Let’s try to move this discussion from the abstract to the specific where it belongs. One level of exhaustion grants you disadvantage on ability checks. Not saving throws, ability checks. If you time your use of Frenzy so that it takes place at the end of the day, you won’t experience any ill effects from it, since you’ll be able to take a long rest immediately after. If you are not so lucky, you’ll have disadvantage on ability checks for the last few hours of the day. So let’s take a look at each ability check you might be asked to make with an eye towards how you are likely to be impacted.
Acrobatics: There are two ways to escape a Grapple and to defend against a shove. You can either make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check or a Strength (Athletics) check. Most barbarians are going to want to focus on Strength (Athletics) and leave the acrobatic maneuvers to the Rogue. You may also be asked to make an Acrobatics roll to keep your balance on a narrow ledge or some such. This happens very infrequently in my experience, but if you cannot avoid it when you are exhausted, ask someone to use the Aid action on you in order to cancel out your disadvantage.
Athletics: The most critical use of this skill is to escape a grapple (preferably with the Shove action, since it can be used in place of an Attack) and to defend against a Shove. In a lot of cases, you’ll be able to Rage which will cancel out the disadvantage. If you’ve used up all of your Rages, ask the cleric for Guidance or ask someone for Aid. You also won’t be able to break down doors and destroy objects as easily through the use of Athletics. You can inflict damage on the object to achieve the same effect, however. You can also carry a crowbar. You also won’t be as good at climbing or swimming. Avoid trying to summit Everest or swim across the English Channel until after you’ve had a rest.
Perception: Feral Instincts at 7th level means you can take your action even if you are surprised as long as you Rage on your turn. As for traps and other hazards, your Rogue buddy should be scanning for these and finding them before anyone can spring them.
Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion: You are not the party face. Let someone else handle these interactions.
Arcana, History, Investigation, Religion: You are not the brains of the party. Let someone else handle this.
Animal Handling, Medicine, Survival: Your Wisdom is not the best. Let someone else handle this.
Stealth: Other people have better Stealth than you. They should be the ones to scout ahead. Even with exhaustion, the heavy armor wearing cleric/fighter/paladin will have a worse Stealth roll than you. If group Stealth is a concern, ask the Druid or Ranger to cast Pass Without Trace.
Initiative: At level 7, you get Feral Instinct, which cancels out your disadvantage with Initiative.
To summarize, you did not choose to be a Barbarian because you wanted to be a skill monkey. The party does not depend on you for your skills, they depend on you because you can take a serious beating as well as give one. Your attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws are completely unaffected by a single level of exhaustion, which means that your ability to fulfill your party role is completely undiminished. You also have class features such as Rage and Feral Instinct which mitigate the effects of exhaustion on the ability checks that are most important to you (it’s almost as if the class designers actually thought things through!). All of these facts add up to one conclusion: if used judiciously, one use of Frenzy per day is well worth the cost. Combined with Mindless Rage and Retaliation, both of which are routinely ignored in these discussions, the Berserker is a fun and effective subclass.
Yes they make a wisdom saving throw. The DC being 8+Proficiency+Constitution modifier. I thought since I am going to make the DC higher I might as well make the resulting consequence a bit weaker since I don't think they intended for Intimidating Presence to be that powerful(Unless you are one of the few Berserkers that decided to raise your Charisma to a degree where the feature would become strong).
We were more concerned with Frenzy to be honest since we felt the price for using it was too steep, but still the ability was strong so we did not want it to be something that could be used freely, so we opted for it to be a resource that you could tap into once at level 3 and ultimately three times at level 12 before recovering your resources through a long rest.
As for balancing issue, I think berserker is very balanced in a no-feat-allowed campaign. Bonus action attack isn’t something easy to get for classes with extra attack feature, thus exhaustion may be considered a fair trade-off. The main issue is that there are a number of feats giving bonus action attack (polearm master for example), so this subclass is totally overshadowed by those builds with both extra attack and a feat providing bonus action attack.
An argument could be made for no feat campaigns, but most tables I have been to(anecdotal evidence I know) and all games I run myself include feats. Even without feats I would argue to simply have Frenzy be a limited resource instead of causing exhaustion, but that is just our table's preference.
@ WuDND & Bosmerja
I can see the point for balance once no features are allowed, yet features are such a nice addition to add flavor to your character, I see little people opting to leave it out.
I like the approach Bosmerja's group has used to limit the Frenzy power because it simplifies the use of it and limits it's functionality without penalizing the character for using it's defining feature.
With the exhaustion attached to Frenzy it feels like this subclass is restricting your barbarian to combat only because having to work with disadvantage on all ability checks can be really harsh. And having your speed halved is like being the ball & chain for the rest of the party or you need to have a cart to drag the Berserker with you.
If all you want is the 3rd level berserker so you can use a bonus action to make a single melee weapon attack? There's other options. If we took a feat, great weapon master and polearm master come to mind, both do more than give you the possible chance to use your bonus action as a attack. There's also the magical item, boots of haste, these basically give you the haste spell.
With all this said, is it worth taking a point of exhaustion just to do something you can do with access through feats and magical items? Or would you rather have resistance to everything but pyhicic? Or take zealot and become essentially unkillable at 14th level....
All this said, I do think some alternatives to the berserker are rather reasonable.
The berserk doesn't bring all that much to the table and doesn't feel like your being a berserk.
The level 3 ability is underpowered because yes it does give a player a free bonus attack for 1 minute in combat, but look at the cons of that, A level of exhaustion witch will require a long rest or greater restoration, if used more than once before a long rest you will need multiple long rests to not die. On top of that there few classes that get to make a attack as a bonus action: monks, war clerics, moon durids, any human variant that picks great weapon master or polearm expert and anyone who is using two weapon fighting.
Now how can you make it better and on par with all the stuff above, simple
1. Make it a once per short reat ability or X amount of uses X = con modifier
2. Change the effects to in place of a bonus action attack, make it a additional action to witch you can only use a attack action like a mini haste effect
3. If you want to give it a negative take another thing from haste, player cant move or take actions for X turns after there rage ends
Not only does it keep the old additional attack it will make you also make it more versatile letting the barbarian use there first action to dash, dodge or take any other action they want and still get a attack in but if your using two weapons it will feel like a crazed berserk, giving the player up to 4 attacks later on at level 5 much like monks
Frenzy is a great ability if you just reserve it for the most important encounter of the day. This is less true if you have other uses for your bonus action, such as Polearm Master or dual wielding, but if you are rocking a greataxe, greatsword, or maul, you can expect to be the deadliest combatant on the field of battle for at least one encounter per day with Frenzy, which is great. If you have other encounters after this, you can rely on your buddies to make the important ability checks. You'll be just fine, and before you know it, your wizard buddy is putting up his Leomund's Tiny Hut so you can take a long rest.
The other ability that Berserker's get which makes the other Barbs green with envy is Mindless Rage. Barbarians are exceptionally vulnerable to charm and fear effects. While the Bear Totem Barb is quailing in fear and soiling his loincloth at the feet of the big nasty dragon, the Berserker is up in its face chopping away with a manic grin on his face. And what did the Bear Totem Barb get at level six? A better carrying capacity? Yeah, that's a nice ribbon!
Retaliation is one of the best abilities in the game if you want to put the serious hurt on your enemies. A Totem Barb cannot even approach the damage of a Berserker once they get Retaliation.
Berserkers are just fine. Better than fine, even. The bad rap they get is entirely a product of group think. Everyone sees Frenzy, zeroes in on the word "exhaustion", compares it to the level 3 ability of the Bear Totem Warrior, and then dismisses everything else about both subclasses. I find it quite funny!
Actively wrong on all accounts, in a game I was in we had a paladin die because of one level of exhaustion, had to make a athletics check and failed as a result he fell to his death.
Also double carrying weight is really REALLY strong, littlery it enables the user to hold down or life huge creatures more so if you have the powerful build feature or brawny feat.
Also fear for barbarian is bot really effective because while you cant move away from a creature but you can ignore the disadvantage with reckless, and charm effects aren't effective in combat due to the fact creature have advantage on most charm effects when the thing trying to charm them is actively hostile and I said in other posts if you have polearm master, great weapon master you get the bonus attack anyways or if you take ONE level in war cleric you get the bonus attack for free, the cost is WAY to high because what if you have more than one dangerous encounter in one day, the only thing you bring to teh table is one bonus attack, if all you care about is more attacks make a monk or fighter. Otherwise berserk brings nothing to the table, it needs heavy reversion that play into being a bear shirt, and the battle trance that comes with it
maybe you could remove 1 point of exhaustion caused by frenzy on a short rest? Or ignore the effects of exhaustion while raging? These ideas aren't mine at all but could help with the issue.
Edit: didn't fully read the thread my bad.
Lot of generalization fallacies, falsehoods, and hyperbole here. Ah, the age of Trumpian truthiness! I'd suggest you actually go play a Berserker for a game or two, and then come back and tell us how debilitating it was. I bet you don't die as the result of a failed ability check unless you're extremely unlucky or you do something stupid. Almost everything that kills you in this game is going to do it with an attack roll or a saving throw. If you're really worried about it, ask a friend to use the Aid action on you to cancel out the disadvantage. Guidance helps too. Finally, try to save your Frenzy ability for the last big battle of the day.
If you read through my post, you'll see that we do agree on one thing: Frenzy is best used when you don't have a lot of other uses for your bonus action. In the real world, not everyone wants to use a polearm or wield two weapons though, and GWM by itself does not grant you a bonus action attack every round, except against low HP mobs. Against a high HP boss, you'll be lucky to get a single bonus action attack from GWM. Bonus action attacks combined with Rage damage, Reckless Attack, and Great Weapon Master pack an awesome punch. Frenzy lets you do it every single round for an entire combat. It is a game-changer for that combat, comparable to Oath of Enmity, for instance, but packing an even bigger punch when combined with Reckless Attack.
You are also overgeneralizing about charm and fear effects. Go pick a random monster that you know has a charm effect, like a Harpy, and go read its entry in the MM. You'll see that it doesn't grant advantage just because you are hostile. Nor does the Suggestion spell, nor Otto's Irresistible Dance, nor any of a number of other spells which cannot be used against targets that are immune to charm effects. Also, read up on the Fear spell while you're at it. It doesn't just impose the frightened condition on you, it forces you to use the Dash action every turn while you are frightened. Furthermore, smart dragons won't just stand next to you when they're using Frightful Presence. It has a range of like 120 ft. for adult dragons. At best, you'll have stand back and throw javelins at it, and you can't use Reckless attack with your ranged attacks. There are a ton of nasty abilities in the game which Mindless Rage helps you avoid.
1. You dont have to quote my whole post
2. In saying the only thing it brings to the table is a bonus attack in exchange for a level of examination, meaning that if you to be on par with other barbarians you need to use it as much as you can witch equals death, a long rest only heals off one level of exhaustion
3.if you want to get really technical with it, most games you will only be getting to around 5-10, 15 at most, if you really want that extra attack just take one level in war cleric, then you get all the benefits of all the other barbarian classes and the bonus action attack, making berserk useless
4.if your going max level you will be getting into combat with extremely high CR creatures at all times and because you can't really do anything but a bonus attack at the cost of exhaustion you will die very fast, and there are quite a few magic items that will just give you the bonus action attack.
Whatever you say or however you try to spin it the level of exhaustion is much much to high a price to pay and you really want the bonus action attack for barbarian you can get it from other classes, feats, items and so on
How are you getting a level of War Cleric and how is your Wisdom high enough to grant you a bonus action attack every round for an entire combat? You need a Wisdom of 13 to multiclass into Cleric, which might be doable, but it's very doubtful that you will have a high enough Wisdom to get more than one or two bonus action attacks per day. You need a 16 Wisdom to get 3/day, an 18 Wisdom to get 4/day, and a 20 Wisdom to get 5/day. There's no way you should be prioritizing your Wisdom when you should instead be focusing on Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution.
Also, ASIs come at a premium for Barbarians since they only get 5, and they want to cap out both Strength and Constitution if they can. That usually leaves you with a single ASI left over for a feat, especially during the key levels that you mention. If you are playing a variant human, you can afford to pick up both Polearm Master and Great Weapon Master, while still capping out your key ability scores. Everyone else has some tough choices to make. My Mountain Dwarf Berserker picked up GWM at level 4, and then capped out his Strength by level 12. No room for both Polearm Master and GWM. Believe it or not, not everyone wants to use a polearm any way, except in theorycrafting land. The vast majority of barbarians I've seen wield a maul, a greataxe, or a greatsword. For such builds, Berserker is a solid choice.
Finally, if there are some items that grant you a bonus action attack every round for an entire combat, I would love to hear about them, since I'm not aware of any. Furhermore, in most games, you don't get to choose your magic items.
The problem I have with people who proclaim that a level of exhaustion is too a high price to pay for kicking ass in one encounter per day is that I'm 99% certain none of these people have ever actually played a Berserker. They're just theory-crafting. In my opinion, every post from a person who portrays themselves as an expert on Berserkers without ever having played one should come with a big disclaimer as a public service to consumers who would otherwise miss out on a great opportunity to play a fun and effective character.
Dipping one level into fighter and taking the Two Weapon Fighting style is better than Berserker if you are looking for a bonus attack every round. Then take the Duel Weilder feat which you can do at first level if your human, use two battle axes and dish out crazy damage. Go Bear totem and effectively double your hit points as the only time you will take full damage is against Psychic Damage.
But that is just my opinion
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
Two Weapon Fighting is very solid at low levels, but Great Weapon Master overtakes it once you get to level 5 or so, especially with Reckless Attack. That's the case even without the extra bonus action attack from Frenzy. That +10 damage per hit really adds up!
One thing in Frenzy's favor as compared to other barbarian abilities is that it frees up your action. Obviously other barbarians can use their action the same as you, but you get to do that and make an attack.
I agree that a great weapon is better once you get Great Weapon Master and the extra attack at 5th level, however it has been my experience that Frenzied Rage just does not get much use after 5th level. The disadvantage of Exhaustion is just not worth one encounter's worth of extra attacks.
In my last campaign, we had a Bear Barbarian with two weapons and a Beserker with great weapon and at the end of the day, the great weapon was better damage, just not significantly so. The great weapon might have pulled ahead if he had Frenzied more, but it only got used about a dozen times over the course of 16 months of gaming. Where the Bear pulled ahead was in the amount of punishment he could take. He was a beast and just never went down.
In our current game, there is a Zealot with a great weapon and Great Weapon Master and she is consistently dealing much higher damage than any other character in the group.
Everyone's mileage varies though
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
I've played a Mountain Dwarf Berserker from levels 1 to 14. I save up Frenzy for the big encounter each day. I am a beast when I use it. I agree that Bear Totem resistance is just about the best ability in the game. I am not so impressed with the 1d6 + half your level damage once per round from the Path of the Zealot. It's decent at the lower levels of play, but I don't think it holds up at higher levels. The scaling is just not very good. It's not a bad ability mind you, but when rogues are getting +10d6 per round from Sneak Attack, all you get is 1d6+10, which is less than +4d6 on average.
But with Rage Bonus and Great weapon master it is a lot more than just 1d6+10. A maul would be doing 3d6 + 24 and another 2d6 + 14 with your second attack so 5d6 + 38 per round. Not as many dice but far more consistent damage and in more than a single battle each day.
I think it just comes down to what you are looking for in the abilities. I personally don't like a mechanic that limits your abilities by creating a penalty for using it. If it were simply limited in the same manner as all the other abilities (ie once per rest or what ever) it would not bother me anywhere near as much.
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
actually the zelot damage can far outdo the extra attack damage, I am in a high level game and the extra 1d6+10 radiant is wrecking face, also whenever he dies we can just auto res him witch is alot, beserker gets shafted when it comes to that because if you get knocked down your rage ends witch means you lose frenzy and have to do it again once you are on your feet so that is another level of exhaustion.
like I said before the exhaustion for the extra attack is not worth it, if you really want 3 attacks just take one level in war cleric, be a monk with one level in barbarian or just be a fighter....or take pole arm master....or great weapon master...or two weapon fighting...or moon druid
I agree. It’s a classic tortoise vs. hare trade-off. Do you want to be able to nova spectacularly for one encounter per day, or are you willing to settle for less damage, as long as you can apply it to every encounter? It’s a matter of taste but it’s also a matter of how many encounters you expect to have in a typical day. I've seen many campaigns where the group averages only 3 or 4 encounters per day. Outside of a dungeon, it’s typically less than that. Inside a dungeon, it can be more. I’ve never been involved in a game that follows the DMG guideline of 6 to 8 encounters in a day, though I assume such games exist. If you are having that many encounters per day, the ability to nova once per day becomes less attractive.
I’d like to address the blanket contention so many people seem to make about Frenzy, which is that one level of exhaustion is so utterly debilitating as to make the ability worthless. Let’s try to move this discussion from the abstract to the specific where it belongs. One level of exhaustion grants you disadvantage on ability checks. Not saving throws, ability checks. If you time your use of Frenzy so that it takes place at the end of the day, you won’t experience any ill effects from it, since you’ll be able to take a long rest immediately after. If you are not so lucky, you’ll have disadvantage on ability checks for the last few hours of the day. So let’s take a look at each ability check you might be asked to make with an eye towards how you are likely to be impacted.
Acrobatics: There are two ways to escape a Grapple and to defend against a shove. You can either make a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check or a Strength (Athletics) check. Most barbarians are going to want to focus on Strength (Athletics) and leave the acrobatic maneuvers to the Rogue. You may also be asked to make an Acrobatics roll to keep your balance on a narrow ledge or some such. This happens very infrequently in my experience, but if you cannot avoid it when you are exhausted, ask someone to use the Aid action on you in order to cancel out your disadvantage.
Athletics: The most critical use of this skill is to escape a grapple (preferably with the Shove action, since it can be used in place of an Attack) and to defend against a Shove. In a lot of cases, you’ll be able to Rage which will cancel out the disadvantage. If you’ve used up all of your Rages, ask the cleric for Guidance or ask someone for Aid. You also won’t be able to break down doors and destroy objects as easily through the use of Athletics. You can inflict damage on the object to achieve the same effect, however. You can also carry a crowbar. You also won’t be as good at climbing or swimming. Avoid trying to summit Everest or swim across the English Channel until after you’ve had a rest.
Perception: Feral Instincts at 7th level means you can take your action even if you are surprised as long as you Rage on your turn. As for traps and other hazards, your Rogue buddy should be scanning for these and finding them before anyone can spring them.
Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Performance, Persuasion: You are not the party face. Let someone else handle these interactions.
Arcana, History, Investigation, Religion: You are not the brains of the party. Let someone else handle this.
Animal Handling, Medicine, Survival: Your Wisdom is not the best. Let someone else handle this.
Stealth: Other people have better Stealth than you. They should be the ones to scout ahead. Even with exhaustion, the heavy armor wearing cleric/fighter/paladin will have a worse Stealth roll than you. If group Stealth is a concern, ask the Druid or Ranger to cast Pass Without Trace.
Initiative: At level 7, you get Feral Instinct, which cancels out your disadvantage with Initiative.
To summarize, you did not choose to be a Barbarian because you wanted to be a skill monkey. The party does not depend on you for your skills, they depend on you because you can take a serious beating as well as give one. Your attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws are completely unaffected by a single level of exhaustion, which means that your ability to fulfill your party role is completely undiminished. You also have class features such as Rage and Feral Instinct which mitigate the effects of exhaustion on the ability checks that are most important to you (it’s almost as if the class designers actually thought things through!). All of these facts add up to one conclusion: if used judiciously, one use of Frenzy per day is well worth the cost. Combined with Mindless Rage and Retaliation, both of which are routinely ignored in these discussions, the Berserker is a fun and effective subclass.