CalligrapherTools & Perception, Stealth, Arcana etc.
Barbarian 5/6 WildHeart or Berserker
ASI PolearmMaster -> STR 18
WeaponMastery push (Pike), topple (Lance) etc.
Fighter 3/4 EchoKnight (2014)
FightingStyle Defense
ASI GreatWeaponMaster -> STR19
We can have 4 attacks at level 8 from PingPong
Warlock X Fiend Patron
Spells: BladeWard, ArmorOfAgathys, MinorIllusion, MirrorImage etc.
EldritchInvocations: FiendishVigor, EldritchMind, LessonOfTheFirstOnes for Tough or TombOfLevistus or PactOfChain for Alert synergy or Devil'sSight
ASI MageSlayer -> STR20
Barbarian5/Fighter3/Warlock12 grants a boon at level 20. Fighter6 adds another ASI for Barbarian 3/4 WildHeart.
I think with this build we'll have (i) better initiative, (ii) higher damage per round, (iii) better out of rage protection, (iv) high TempHP+HP, (v) more utility with the invocations than a straight classed Barbarian or Fighter and (vi) we can cast spells (the most powerful class feature). Therefore, we'll improve our DamageDealt vs. DamageTaken ratio. But that is open to discussions and I may be wrong. :-)
Ping-Pong attack (4 attacks): We basically play ping-pong with the target (see this post). We take Barbarian to always hit with advantage via RecklessAttack and pull off that trick more reliably.
5 attacks in the first round: Provided the Echo has a halberd already, the Echo attacks two targets within 5ft of each other using the Cleave-WeaponMastery and stows the halberd. The Barbarian equips a pike and we continue with the Echo that attacks via Ping-Pong.
Before combat and duing our adventuring day, we have our Echo always manifested, always have +12 TempHP from FiendishVigor that don’t expire (top them up after a rest & after combat) and always concentrate on BladeWard for expected +2AC (cast after a rest & after combat and keep casting). We’ll loose concentration if we rage but we are protected in combat even if we don’t rage. Because of the invocation EldritchMind, our high CON and our proficiency in CON saving throws, we could keep concentrating well and the expected +2AC are a resource free option that saves our rages. We'll cast ArmorOfAgathys if we plan to rage and before we do so. The spell lasts for 1h, doesn't require concentration, just takes a BonusAction to cast, gives TempHP and does nice damage if we are hit. TempHPs are virtually doubled when we rage. TempHP do not stack but you can change which to keep when you get new ones. So we have FiendishVigor TempHP before combat, cast ArmorOfAgathys and simply keep the FiendishVigor TempHP. At Warlock 5 we don’t do this anymore. SageAdviceCompendium says ArmorOfAgathys does not end when we take the TempHP from another source.
Using RecklessAttack, attacks against the Echo are made with a flat roll. Remember you are not the Echo and advantage is against you. However, you still attack through the Echo with advantage. This is applicable to Darkness, FogCloud. The Echo adds ton of mobility & control and can attack flying targets with a Lance for the Topple-WeaponMastery. This gives the target the prone condition. Note the invocation EldritchSmite does that as well, has no saving throw but it requies a precious spell slot. Knocking prone or grappling through the Echo does not make sense I think because we loose an entire attack.
We create a CustomBackground from DMG. Lucky and HeroicInspiration (Human) is for saving throws and Alert to go first in combat. We need the latter to (i) position the Echo, (ii) activate Rage or ArmorOfAgathys, (iii) deal ActionSurge+UnleashIncarnation nova damage. Note the invocation PactOfChain basically grants advantage on the initiative roll if we swap initiative with our familiar (Imp, Sprite, SphinxOfWonder). Optional would be MagicInitiate for GiftOfAlacrity. The invocation LessonOfTheFirstOnes allows for Tough to close the HP dice gap between Barbarian and Warlock.
Our Barbarian subclass is WildHeart for increased resistances or Berserker for more damage and the MindlessRage protection. The Warlock subclass is Fiend because of the synergy with Rage to get TempHP for every fallen target and the saving throw protection.
CalligrapherTools allows us to scribe SpellScrolls and we do that as much as we can. Note that casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
Motivation: The Barbarian has fewer options for multiclassing in DnD 2024 than in 2014 that work well with Rage. Ranger FavoredFoe is now FavoredEnemy and build around the spell Hunter'sMark, GloomStalker is nerfed, Paladin's DivineSmite is now a spell (though DivineFavor increases the damage output) and the powerful PeaceCleric one level dip is gone. I believe that PrecisionAttack from BattleMaster is not so strong anymore since GreatWeaponMaster (i) lost the -5 on attack rolls but (ii) deals more damage against high AC targets than in 2014. ShadowSorcerery UA for the level 6 feature (casting spells without needing to concentrate) might be something to do before raging but the hit dice is so low. Note that an EchoKnight with PolearmMaster and Sentinel is not so great anymore because ReactiveStrike is not an OpportunityAttack.
The build is inspired by the RageFiendBarbarian from TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics but without GiantBarbarian because oversized weapons might not work anymore. I have read these rules are not in the DMG 2024.
When you have 5 weapon masteries you should absolutely have a bunch of thrown weapons in your masteries. Trident for topple. A thrown vex weapon. Maybe even a long bow for really long range. Take advantage of those 5 masteries and vary things up.
When you have 5 weapon masteries you should absolutely have a bunch of thrown weapons in your masteries. Trident for topple. A thrown vex weapon. Maybe even a long bow for really long range. Take advantage of those 5 masteries and vary things up.
I second this, especially the Trident for topple. Hit a flying enemy with topple and they fall from the sky, taking fall damage and landing Prone, ready to take more beatings.
When you have 5 weapon masteries you should absolutely have a bunch of thrown weapons in your masteries. Trident for topple. A thrown vex weapon. Maybe even a long bow for really long range. Take advantage of those 5 masteries and vary things up.
When you have 5 weapon masteries you should absolutely have a bunch of thrown weapons in your masteries. Trident for topple. A thrown vex weapon. Maybe even a long bow for really long range. Take advantage of those 5 masteries and vary things up.
I second this, especially the Trident for topple. Hit a flying enemy with topple and they fall from the sky, taking fall damage and landing Prone, ready to take more beatings.
The Echo attacking a flying object with a Lance & Topple for the PAM BonusActionattack is a very good option. It would look funny though. Thanks and I've added Topple.
Do you think vex & thrown is necessary? The Echo can attack at range >=30ft already and the Barbarian has RecklessAttack.
Do you have another idea on the build? How do you like the ping-pong that triggers the PAM ReactiveStrike?
The reason vex and thrown is necessary is for when you can't get to an enemy for an attack. If you are using a two handed weapon, then you pull your hand axe, if you hit and then close the next turn you have advantage on the next attack against them.
Its about gaining a benefit for when you can't get into melee this turn. Topple from Trident is useful as well for similar reasons. If you are tracking weight you can carry twice as many handaxes.
But the cool part is that you should absolutely customize it to your character vision. Do you feel your thrown weapon should be more javelins? More handaxes? What about Hammers? Do you want a long (100ft+) option? Longbow as well? You have five masteries and you should absolutely use all of them or have all of them available.
I once had a character who collected daggers, as many as he could, named them after where/who he got them from.
Counterpoint: Now that Barbarian Rage damage works with thrown weapons, you can optimize a thrown weapon Barbarian using Nick and Dual Wielder for 4 attacks per turn:
Attack1: 1d4+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Light & Nick to trigger additional attacks Attack2: 1d6+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Sap counters enemy Adv Attack3 (Nick): 1d4+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless Attack4 (Bonus Action): 1d6+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Sap counters enemy
Total: 2d4 + 2d6 + 4*STR + 24
Plus you can add on Sentinel for a 5th attack per turn. Use the Echo to keep at the optimal throwing range, while your character uses Sentinel to tank the enemy attacks.
Disclaimer: I understand a DM can overrule anything and allow any combo.
How do you mix/multiclass 2024 character with 2014 character? The location of the subclasses are now different levels, the feats are different, and not having a 2014 book, I assume there are several other changes as well?
Counterpoint: Now that Barbarian Rage damage works with thrown weapons, you can optimize a thrown weapon Barbarian using Nick and Dual Wielder for 4 attacks per turn:
Attack1: 1d4+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Light & Nick to trigger additional attacks Attack2: 1d6+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Sap counters enemy Adv Attack3 (Nick): 1d4+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless Attack4 (Bonus Action): 1d6+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Sap counters enemy
Total: 2d4 + 2d6 + 4*STR + 24
Plus you can add on Sentinel for a 5th attack per turn. Use the Echo to keep at the optimal throwing range, while your character uses Sentinel to tank the enemy attacks.
Hi Agilemind, Thanks for your post and I like the ideas a lot. MageSlayer or Resilient is quite important to prevent shutdowns. I propose to postpone Sentinel a bit.
Duelling works when "you're holding a Melee weapon in one hand". If you throw it, the bonus doesn't apply. That is what ThrownWeaponFighting is there for. You'll find your idea DW+TWF+Duelling with 1d6 melee in the table below.
Barbarian DnD24 + Level8 + STR18 + Rage + RecklessAttack + 65% chance to hit for STR20is used to calculate DamagePerRound in the table below. That gives us 60% and 84% with advantage. I considered GWM Hew and critical hits in general. Doing the math shows PingPong attack is the clear winner. Comparing to 2014 PAM+GWM, it is not game breaking. DW+TWF+Duelling is a very good damage option.
Hi all.
This build uses the Ping-Pong attack (see this post). Let me know your thoughts.
Barbarian5/Fighter3/Warlock12 grants a boon at level 20. Fighter6 adds another ASI for Barbarian 3/4 WildHeart.
I think with this build we'll have (i) better initiative, (ii) higher damage per round, (iii) better out of rage protection, (iv) high TempHP+HP, (v) more utility with the invocations than a straight classed Barbarian or Fighter and (vi) we can cast spells (the most powerful class feature). Therefore, we'll improve our DamageDealt vs. DamageTaken ratio. But that is open to discussions and I may be wrong. :-)
Ping-Pong attack (4 attacks): We basically play ping-pong with the target (see this post). We take Barbarian to always hit with advantage via RecklessAttack and pull off that trick more reliably.
5 attacks in the first round: Provided the Echo has a halberd already, the Echo attacks two targets within 5ft of each other using the Cleave-WeaponMastery and stows the halberd. The Barbarian equips a pike and we continue with the Echo that attacks via Ping-Pong.
Before combat and duing our adventuring day, we have our Echo always manifested, always have +12 TempHP from FiendishVigor that don’t expire (top them up after a rest & after combat) and always concentrate on BladeWard for expected +2AC (cast after a rest & after combat and keep casting). We’ll loose concentration if we rage but we are protected in combat even if we don’t rage. Because of the invocation EldritchMind, our high CON and our proficiency in CON saving throws, we could keep concentrating well and the expected +2AC are a resource free option that saves our rages. We'll cast ArmorOfAgathys if we plan to rage and before we do so. The spell lasts for 1h, doesn't require concentration, just takes a BonusAction to cast, gives TempHP and does nice damage if we are hit. TempHPs are virtually doubled when we rage. TempHP do not stack but you can change which to keep when you get new ones. So we have FiendishVigor TempHP before combat, cast ArmorOfAgathys and simply keep the FiendishVigor TempHP. At Warlock 5 we don’t do this anymore. SageAdviceCompendium says ArmorOfAgathys does not end when we take the TempHP from another source.
Using RecklessAttack, attacks against the Echo are made with a flat roll. Remember you are not the Echo and advantage is against you. However, you still attack through the Echo with advantage. This is applicable to Darkness, FogCloud. The Echo adds ton of mobility & control and can attack flying targets with a Lance for the Topple-WeaponMastery. This gives the target the prone condition. Note the invocation EldritchSmite does that as well, has no saving throw but it requies a precious spell slot. Knocking prone or grappling through the Echo does not make sense I think because we loose an entire attack.
We create a CustomBackground from DMG. Lucky and HeroicInspiration (Human) is for saving throws and Alert to go first in combat. We need the latter to (i) position the Echo, (ii) activate Rage or ArmorOfAgathys, (iii) deal ActionSurge+UnleashIncarnation nova damage. Note the invocation PactOfChain basically grants advantage on the initiative roll if we swap initiative with our familiar (Imp, Sprite, SphinxOfWonder). Optional would be MagicInitiate for GiftOfAlacrity. The invocation LessonOfTheFirstOnes allows for Tough to close the HP dice gap between Barbarian and Warlock.
Our Barbarian subclass is WildHeart for increased resistances or Berserker for more damage and the MindlessRage protection. The Warlock subclass is Fiend because of the synergy with Rage to get TempHP for every fallen target and the saving throw protection.
CalligrapherTools allows us to scribe SpellScrolls and we do that as much as we can. Note that casting the spell by reading the scroll requires the spell’s normal casting time.
Motivation: The Barbarian has fewer options for multiclassing in DnD 2024 than in 2014 that work well with Rage. Ranger FavoredFoe is now FavoredEnemy and build around the spell Hunter'sMark, GloomStalker is nerfed, Paladin's DivineSmite is now a spell (though DivineFavor increases the damage output) and the powerful PeaceCleric one level dip is gone. I believe that PrecisionAttack from BattleMaster is not so strong anymore since GreatWeaponMaster (i) lost the -5 on attack rolls but (ii) deals more damage against high AC targets than in 2014. ShadowSorcerery UA for the level 6 feature (casting spells without needing to concentrate) might be something to do before raging but the hit dice is so low. Note that an EchoKnight with PolearmMaster and Sentinel is not so great anymore because ReactiveStrike is not an OpportunityAttack.
The build is inspired by the RageFiendBarbarian from TabletopBuilds and PackTacktics but without GiantBarbarian because oversized weapons might not work anymore. I have read these rules are not in the DMG 2024.
Please let me know your thoughts on the build.
When you have 5 weapon masteries you should absolutely have a bunch of thrown weapons in your masteries. Trident for topple. A thrown vex weapon. Maybe even a long bow for really long range. Take advantage of those 5 masteries and vary things up.
I second this, especially the Trident for topple. Hit a flying enemy with topple and they fall from the sky, taking fall damage and landing Prone, ready to take more beatings.
Hi Elfdope and Sequilonis. Thanks for the replies.
The Echo attacking a flying object with a Lance & Topple for the PAM BonusAction attack is a very good option. It would look funny though. Thanks and I've added Topple.
Do you think vex & thrown is necessary? The Echo can attack at range >=30ft already and the Barbarian has RecklessAttack.
Do you have another idea on the build? How do you like the ping-pong that triggers the PAM ReactiveStrike?
The reason vex and thrown is necessary is for when you can't get to an enemy for an attack. If you are using a two handed weapon, then you pull your hand axe, if you hit and then close the next turn you have advantage on the next attack against them.
Its about gaining a benefit for when you can't get into melee this turn. Topple from Trident is useful as well for similar reasons. If you are tracking weight you can carry twice as many handaxes.
But the cool part is that you should absolutely customize it to your character vision. Do you feel your thrown weapon should be more javelins? More handaxes? What about Hammers? Do you want a long (100ft+) option? Longbow as well? You have five masteries and you should absolutely use all of them or have all of them available.
I once had a character who collected daggers, as many as he could, named them after where/who he got them from.
Agreed. Makes sense to have them. Thanks. Have some thown weapons is indeed nice. Good backup for the Echo attacking like melee at range.
Counterpoint: Now that Barbarian Rage damage works with thrown weapons, you can optimize a thrown weapon Barbarian using Nick and Dual Wielder for 4 attacks per turn:
Barbarian 5, Echo Knight - 4:Fighting Style: Thrown Weapon Fighting (+2 to thrown weapon attack) Feats: Dual Wielder (4th attack per turn), Fighting Style: Dueling.
Use spear + dagger, for:
Attack1: 1d4+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Light & Nick to trigger additional attacks
Attack2: 1d6+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Sap counters enemy Adv
Attack3 (Nick): 1d4+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless
Attack4 (Bonus Action): 1d6+STR + 2(Dueling) + 2(Thrown weapon fighting) + 2(Rage) with >80% chance to hit from Reckless & Sap counters enemy
Total: 2d4 + 2d6 + 4*STR + 24
Plus you can add on Sentinel for a 5th attack per turn. Use the Echo to keep at the optimal throwing range, while your character uses Sentinel to tank the enemy attacks.
Disclaimer: I understand a DM can overrule anything and allow any combo.
How do you mix/multiclass 2024 character with 2014 character? The location of the subclasses are now different levels, the feats are different, and not having a 2014 book, I assume there are several other changes as well?
Hi Agilemind, Thanks for your post and I like the ideas a lot. MageSlayer or Resilient is quite important to prevent shutdowns. I propose to postpone Sentinel a bit.
Duelling works when "you're holding a Melee weapon in one hand". If you throw it, the bonus doesn't apply. That is what ThrownWeaponFighting is there for. You'll find your idea DW+TWF+Duelling with 1d6 melee in the table below.
Barbarian DnD24 + Level8 + STR18 + Rage + RecklessAttack + 65% chance to hit for STR20 is used to calculate DamagePerRound in the table below. That gives us 60% and 84% with advantage. I considered GWM Hew and critical hits in general. Doing the math shows PingPong attack is the clear winner. Comparing to 2014 PAM+GWM, it is not game breaking. DW+TWF+Duelling is a very good damage option.
DualWielder+TwoWeaponFighting 1d6 (4 attacks)
33,28 (DW)
40,00 (Duelling)
PingPong - ReactiveStrike attack with advantage