Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer CreaturesFrozen SickD&D Beyond Basic RulesBasic Rules (2014)Sign in to view your library & saved favorites.
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Here's what Mighty Impel does:
The question is: does the creature still fall if they have a Flying Speed and can't Hover?
All that the feature says is that:
- The creature falls
- It takes the normal falling damage
- It lands prone
If this was meant to only apply to creatures that can't fly, then none of this would need to be said. This is the behavior of the general rules already.
But specific rules like this one usually aren't there just to remind you how the general rules work. When something doesn't need to be said, it rarely is.
So if this was added, surely it's for a reason, right?
But on the other hand, the creature falling without being knocked prone beforehand, or having their speed reduced to 0, or Incapacitated feels weird. But also it makes sense considering that they're being forcibly moved up to 30 ft. Not a really a situation where you can easily stabilize in the air, even if you can fly. So it seems like a "specific beats general" situation here.
And yet... it feels weird.
The power itself does not knock the target prone, that’s a function of falling. So I’d say no, a flying creature does not fall.
I guess the exception would be if the barbarian threw the target down onto the ground. Then I’d have them take fall damage for the distance they were thrown.
I know, but it still forces the creature to fall. What the text says is that "the creature falls", so the creature falls because the description says so.
The expected answer would be "but you only falls if you can't hover and your speed is 0, you're incapacitated, or fall prone", to which I would reply "specific beats general".
In the case of Mighty Impel, the creature falls if they're not on solid ground after being moved. Not because that's the general rule, but because the specific rule of Mighty Impel says so. It is not a mechanical consequence of being thrown in the air, it's an effect caused by the feature itself... even though it feels weird.
Well, the way I read it, if someone throws you and you land on the ground, you’re not prone. So, why would throwing you from one spot in the air to another in the air make you go prone?
You're not prone, but the text of the feature's description says that you fall.
I guess it's easier to keep your balance with your feet than with your wings...
The ability does not inflict the prone condition, but the rules state that if you take falling damage from a fall, then you are knocked prone. The ability quoted above is simply restating that, the ability itself does not inflict the prone status. The ability description is simply reminding the reader of the rule that if a creature falls and takes damage from the fall, then it becomes prone because of taking damage from the fall. As such tossing a flying creature into the air, does not cause it to fall because to the flying creature being in the air is as natural as being on the ground for those that can't fly.
Saying a flying creature can't fly and stay in the air because they were moved on someone else's turn, is akin to saying your character can't remain standing because someone moved you on their turn. You can remain standing, unless the ability that moved you states you can't.
A flying creature can't fall unless it chooses to stop flying, or something causes it to stop flying - this ability does neither of those things.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Yeah, no. The ability doesn't say that you are knocked prone, it says that you fall without being knocked prone.
There is no rule in this game that does nothing but remind of the general rules. That's not a thing. And if it was, it would say "it falls unless it has a flying speed greater than 0 and isn't already Prone or Incapacitated", but it doesn't.
The ability says you fall. It doesn't say you're Incapacitated, or that your speed is 0, or that you're knocked prone before the fall. But it says you fall, so you fall. It's not because they got moved, it's not because they get knocked prone or anything like that.
You fall after the movement if you're still in the air because that's what the ability says happens if you're in the air after being thrown.
I'd treat a thrown creature with a flying speed as if supported and thus would not fall.
What's the surface or liquid that's supporting them? Air is neither a surface, nor a liquid...
Also, if you rule that, it will have unintended consequences on Vortex Warp
What is supporting you is your Fly Speed, with which you can stay aloft until you land, fall, or die.
Vortex Warp target is teleported to an unoccupied space that must be on a surface or in a liquid that can support it without squeezing, so to me wether it can fly or not is irrelevant.
Similarly, if you have a Fly Speed and the ground below you suddenly vanish somehow, i woudn't have you fall.
Same if you end up thrown in the air.
A "Fly Speed" is not a surface or a liquid, so it doesn't qualify.
And yes, the description of Vortex Warp is word for word the exact same as Mighty Impel regarding the destination: "a surface or in a liquid that can support it", so it is very much relevant.
So you have a flying enemy that's already Prone, cast Vortex Warp on them at level 5, and watch as they fall (already prone) 180ft for 18d6 points of fall damage. You can because according to you, their Flying Speed is considered support...
Yes but that's different. That's not a feature that says "you fall". But if there was a feature that says "the floor vanishes and everybody on it immediately falls", then that's what happens. Specific beats general.
While the wording is similar, the subject it apply to isn't, creature vs space ;
I know, but it's how i would rule it myself you can of course rule differently or check with your DM how it would do so.
If Fly Speed doesn't let you stay aloft when in the air rulewise then it's not functional because you would always fall.
Not unless it's a specific feature that says you fall and not the general rule. That's what I keep saying. You fall in this case only because that specific feature makes you fall. It doesn't extend to any other case.
You fall because have no way to support yourself if you don’t land on the ground. A creature with a fly speed does have a way to support themselves. The prone here is conditional. If they don’t land on something solid, they fall, and because they fall, they land prone. If they don’t fall, they don’t go prone. And a creature with a fly speed wouldn’t have to fall.
While I’m always hesitant to try and get in the designer’s heads, here goes. When one reads the feature about throwing someone 30’, there are going to be players who immediately say, 30’ straight up, so they take some fall damage. This wording makes it clear that’s an option. After all, there a lot of things that push something away from you, and people who try to game that, like saying they crouch down when they use repelling blast to hit someone up and away at an angle so they then take fall damage. This makes it clear you can do something like that in this case
Similarly, there will be players who use it to toss allies. Maybe across a chasm, maybe up to a ledge, maybe into or out of a dangerous situation; grab the wizard and toss them out of melee. This is saying you can do that, and if they land on something solid, they’re ok; they don’t take any damage.
I'm trying to tell you that it doesn't matter. It's not the fact that you are prone that makes you fall. It's the fact that the Might Impel says "you fall". Period. No "you fall if you're prone" or "you fall if your speed is 0" or "you fall if you don't have a Flying Speed"... It just says "you fall", without condition. Arguing that a flying creature wouldn't fall from this effect because they have a Flying Speed and they're not prone is like saying that Sun Beam doesn't blind you because you're not in a Heavily Obscured area.
The rules of flying say this:
But this does NOT mean that you are completely immune to falling if you don't meet any of these circumstances. Just because meeting one of these 3 makes you fall, doesn't mean it's the ONLY possible way to fall.
I find it hard to make a flying creature fall. With a Fly Speed, while in midair don't fall unless you have the Incapacitated or Prone condition, or is your Fly Speed is reduced to 0, none of which Path of the Giant impose.
What you're saying here is not true. Again, the rules say that one of these 3 conditions make you fall.
It DOESN'T say that you don't fall unless one of these 3 conditions are met. That's not the same thing.
It's the same logic as for Stealth, where the game says an enemy finds you with a Perception check, but it doesn't mean that it's the only way to find you.
You fall if you meet one of these conditions, but that doesn't mean it's the only way to fall.
The rules tell you with Fly Speed you can stay aloft and how you can fall when Flying in a nutshell.
Just like with Stealth, the DM can of course decide to shut it down with other circumstances not enumated in the rules.
It'd be my ruling in such situation but you do you.