I am almost hitting lvl 4 as a Half-Orc Zealot Barbarian. I have +5 STR and I'm happy with the rest of my stats so I'm not looking at ASI.
When looking at Feats I think I've narrowed it down to Polearm Master or GWM and I'm on the fence. I've been tracking my rolls for the last two sessions and I don't think I would have connected with more than one or two attacks per session if I had the -5 penalty, even with reckless. I'm also annoyed that my only bonus right now is to rage.
So I'm looking at having a turn that is either GWM:
Greatsword: 2d6 + 5
Zealot: 1d6 + 2
Rage: 2
GWM: 10
=~ 29.5 assuming I hit with the -5 penalty
or Polearm Master:
Glaive: 1d10 + 5
Zealot: 1d6 + 2
Rage: 2
Polearm Bonus Attack: 1d4 + 5
Rage: 2
=~ 27.5 assuming I hit with both attacks
So the "average damage total" is in favor of GWM while raging, but I feel like a bonus attack would hit more often than using GWM for every attack. Plus more rolls with advantage should mean more chances to crit. AND with the other part of Polearm Master I would have a little more control over the battlefield. Thematically either weapon would fit my backstory so I'm not worried about the RP aspect. Plus I can always pick up the other one at level 8.
GWM also gives me a bonus melee attack if I crit or drop the target to 0HP, which would add a 2d6 + 5 assuming either 1) the target is still alive, or 2) there's another target within my remaining movement. Polearm would give me opportunity attacks for enemies entering my melee range.
My biggest concern with Polearm Master is itemization, specifically treasure. I worry that I go Polearm Master and then I wind up finding a great magical GreatSword/GreatAxe and then the feat becomes basically useless. Though I hope my DM would throw me a bone with treasure so that wouldn't happen.
The rest of my party is a Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Druid (usually a spider or wolf), Paladin/Sorcerer, and a currently dead Rogue we are trying to revive. I think either feat would help them as well, though battlefield control might be slightly more useful?
Anything that I am missing that might sway my decision one way or the other?
polearm give you a 10 feet radius punishment area with reach weapon so the enemy have to waste movement walking around you getting in the back line. with sentinel later this become even more detergent because if you hit them they cant even move anymore, make enemy with only 5 feet reach impossible to hit you or go after your backline.
GWM is great against low hp/low ac enemies but against high ac enemy it not even worth doing the -5 hit +10 attack.
That makes sense. I think the higher AC targets has been the problem as of late, but being able to do the same damage without having to take a penalty is sounding a lot better.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but when you say, "GWM also gives me a bonus melee attack if I crit or drop the target to 0HP, which would add a 2d6 + 2 (no ability modifier because bonus attack)..." What rule are you quoting for not getting ability modifiers on bonus attacks? I know with Two Weapon Fighting, if you don't have the Two Weapon Fighting style from your class that your offhand attack doesn't get your modifier. But you are not using two weapon fighting in this instance, so your bonus attack would get the +5 from your strength.
I always thought that the bonus attack damage doesn't get the modifier because it's not an "Extra Attack". Is there somewhere in the PHB that denotes you get your ability modifier on the bonus attack damage with the same weapon (or in the case of Polearm Master, the opposite side of the weapon)?
Yea, the numbers were messed up with the whole proficiency being added and not knowing about the bonus attack damage. I think I cleared the numbers up and now Polearm Master is about 2dmg on average less than GWM, assuming optimal conditions on each attack and the use of a GreatSword vs something like a GreatAxe.
I'll remember that magic damage as well for the offhand, if my DM is merciful and I come across one in our campaign. Thanks for the tip!
Divine Fury should be calculated after all damage. It's only calculated once a turn, not every attack. In addition it's once on your turn not once a turn so you don't get it on Attacks of Opportunity.
You probably have it correct, but I wanted to spell it out as the calculation will change when you get Extra Attack. I'm disappointed it doesn't apply to AoOs.
I ran a Barb with PAM and Sentinel...it is an amazing thing when played correctly.
In wide open combat areas take point and get your other melee damage dealers to flank you left and right. When the attacker goes after the soft squishees with you they trigger Sentinel.
In tight combat you end up just locking down the combat in a choke point. It is awsome.
Based on your OP I'm going to go on the assumption that your RP choices won't factor into this (your backstory doesn't have you growing up in a tribe of PAM or whatever).
While all three (PAM, GWM and Sentinel) make up a GREAT trifecta of Feats, 3 Feats is a pretty big investment so, as you mentioned, unless the DM is generous with the loot choices you might be hampered (speak with your DM about this).
I personally prefer PAM early on because the additional Attack adds more options (striking to finish the main target, striking an additional target, etc). The second attack from PAM also benefits from some buffing spells like Crusader's Mantle where EACH weapon attack gains bonus damage or effects. The second attack is also yet another chance to use damage bonuses from your Str (two attacks at +5 = +10 if they both hit).
All this being said, I would take PAM now and GWM later because the two work SO well together that they're tough to ignore. Sentinel can be taken later down the road as the situation warrants.
A barbarian with polearm master and sentinel also gets to reckless attack from 10 ft away, move back and stop the opponent getting close enough to use advantage attacks by hitting the advancing opponent on its turn and reducing its move to 0. After level 5, if the opponent gets past the opportunity attack, on the barbarians turn, the barbarian shoves them back (with advantage while raging) and reckless attacks twice shouting "see if you can do that again"
Anyway your calculation should be more like:
GWM assuming hit on roll of 11+ without -5
Greatsword: 2d6 + 5
Zealot: 1d6 + 2
Rage: 2
GWM: 10
=~ 29.5/4 => about 7.125 each round (you miss 3 times out of 4)
Polearm Master assuming hit on roll of 11+
Glaive: 1d10 + 5
Zealot: 1d6 + 2
Rage: 2
Polearm Bonus Attack: 1d4 + 5
Rage: 2
=~ 12.625 each round (1 in 4 chance of each result: miss twice/ hit 1st, miss 2nd/ miss first, hit 2nd/ hit both)
PAM and GWM are both excellent feats for increasing your damage. As Warrior_for_hire mentions in general PAM will yield more damage after factoring hit chance. I checked all AC's from 10-25 and PAM wins out every time. This math only considers the attacks you are for sure able to make during your turn so it is not considering the possible bonus action attack from GWM or the reaction attack for someone entering your reach with PAM. (If anyone cares for the math I made a public copy of my DPR google sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HQ3VlR880OU8EEmJAWkB3L1WrcXDkMlZFfDH4J-y-0/edit?usp=sharing)
Also I just wanted to add a few things that haven't been mentioned yet. First, more attacks means more chances of getting your Divine Fury damage. So part of why PAM wins is because you also get your Divine Fury damage more often. Second, at lower tiers of play there is less variance in a targets AC. The designers want to ensure a low CR monster doesn't have an AC that is too hard to hit. But at higher tiers you can have an encounter with a large number of squishy targets or one big bad with a ton of HP but a low AC and these are situations where GWM shines.
Finally, as has been mentioned glaives and halberds are heavy weapons so you can use both PAM and GWM at the same time with them. This on a Zealot barbarian yields the best DPR possible for a barbarian. You can also add Sentinel since you don't want/need any ASIs and you have one of the most potent barbarian builds out there.
Another interesting combo is polearm master, sentinel and crusher. The bonus bludgeoning polearm attack can be used to push your opponent back 5ft, so, at level 5 the barbarian can AoO opponents as they approach and then on their turn:
opponent at 10ft - reckless attack x 2, reckless bonus attack to put opponent at 15ft
opponent at 5 ft (missed AoO) - shove (at advantage if raging) opponent to 10ft, reckless attack, reckless bonus attack to put opponent at 15ft
if there are 2 opponents threatening you, shove 1, bonus attack the other and move back a little
GWM will give you a lot of bonus action attacks. Full 2d6 attacks that you can add the +10 to. Then level 8 you can pick up PAM and kill all the things.
They're both good feats. Personally, i hate to miss so i prefer a bonus action attack to a -5/+10. I also really like extra Opportunity Attack. I find Polearm Master maximize action economy, making more useful use of your bonus action and reaction than Great Weapon Master.
They're both good feats. Personally, i hate to miss so i prefer a bonus action attack to a -5/+10. I also really like extra Opportunity Attack. I find Polearm Master maximize action economy, making more useful use of your bonus action and reaction than Great Weapon Master.
Agreed. Statistically GWM is a net damage increase under most conditions, but when you’re hitting 35% of the time instead of 60%, that just feels bad.
That’s why I don’t use it for Fighters. Reckless Attack makes power attacks much more tolerable, and deadly for that matter.
They're both good feats. Personally, i hate to miss so i prefer a bonus action attack to a -5/+10. I also really like extra Opportunity Attack. I find Polearm Master maximize action economy, making more useful use of your bonus action and reaction than Great Weapon Master.
100% agree.
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I am almost hitting lvl 4 as a Half-Orc Zealot Barbarian. I have +5 STR and I'm happy with the rest of my stats so I'm not looking at ASI.
When looking at Feats I think I've narrowed it down to Polearm Master or GWM and I'm on the fence. I've been tracking my rolls for the last two sessions and I don't think I would have connected with more than one or two attacks per session if I had the -5 penalty, even with reckless. I'm also annoyed that my only bonus right now is to rage.
So I'm looking at having a turn that is either GWM:
Greatsword: 2d6 + 5
Zealot: 1d6 + 2
Rage: 2
GWM: 10
=~ 29.5 assuming I hit with the -5 penalty
or Polearm Master:
Glaive: 1d10 + 5
Zealot: 1d6 + 2
Rage: 2
Polearm Bonus Attack: 1d4 + 5
Rage: 2
=~ 27.5 assuming I hit with both attacks
Looks fun. Doesn't look like you factored in the To Hit chance when you came up with your "average total damage". Multiply your numbers by 0.6 for a more accurate representation and by 0.4 if you are taking the -5 for GWM. And since the extra Zealot damage is the same for both, then you don't need to include it to understand which is doing more damage for you. You can, but the difference is literally 1 damage in favour of PAM.
SO GWM with the -5 is: (2d6+5+2 rage+10 GWM) x 0.4 = 24x0.4 = 9.6 (Call it 10)
PAM is: (1d10 + 5 +2 rage)x 0.6 + (1d4 + 5 + 2 rage) x 0.6 = 7.5 + 5.7 (call it 7 + 6 = 13)
PAM will do more at your level because it's a whole extra attack being factored in with the consistent use of your bonus action. But keep in mind GWM will give you another attack as a bonus action when you down an opponent, which would double the damage. If you consistently reduce opponents to 0 hp, then GWM will do more damage in combat.
GWM will usually benefit you more at lower levels because the +10 damage has a good chance of killing most things you will encounter, which will trigger the bonus attack. Use the formula: (Maximum AC to use GWM = your attack bonus - avg damage/2 + 16 ) for when it is more beneficial to use GWM than not. You will need to make a guess about the targets AC which is often easy enough to do. You don't need to know the exact AC, just if it is below the MAX AC threshold the formula calculates.
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Great Weapon Master and it isn't close. Reckless makes GWM so incredibly reliable and you will get plenty of use out of your BA between rage 1st round and crits or kills on subsequent.
The damage you showed is only comparable from the second turn on because on turn one you don't have a BA for PAM. GWM delivers insane damage from turn one. It is the first and most important feat for a Barbarian (You can certainly play a Barb without GWM, you won't burst into flames or anything, but it is invariably weaker to do so).
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I am almost hitting lvl 4 as a Half-Orc Zealot Barbarian. I have +5 STR and I'm happy with the rest of my stats so I'm not looking at ASI.
When looking at Feats I think I've narrowed it down to Polearm Master or GWM and I'm on the fence. I've been tracking my rolls for the last two sessions and I don't think I would have connected with more than one or two attacks per session if I had the -5 penalty, even with reckless. I'm also annoyed that my only bonus right now is to rage.
So I'm looking at having a turn that is either GWM:
or Polearm Master:
So the "average damage total" is in favor of GWM while raging, but I feel like a bonus attack would hit more often than using GWM for every attack. Plus more rolls with advantage should mean more chances to crit. AND with the other part of Polearm Master I would have a little more control over the battlefield. Thematically either weapon would fit my backstory so I'm not worried about the RP aspect. Plus I can always pick up the other one at level 8.
GWM also gives me a bonus melee attack if I crit or drop the target to 0HP, which would add a 2d6 + 5 assuming either 1) the target is still alive, or 2) there's another target within my remaining movement. Polearm would give me opportunity attacks for enemies entering my melee range.
My biggest concern with Polearm Master is itemization, specifically treasure. I worry that I go Polearm Master and then I wind up finding a great magical GreatSword/GreatAxe and then the feat becomes basically useless. Though I hope my DM would throw me a bone with treasure so that wouldn't happen.
The rest of my party is a Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Druid (usually a spider or wolf), Paladin/Sorcerer, and a currently dead Rogue we are trying to revive. I think either feat would help them as well, though battlefield control might be slightly more useful?
Anything that I am missing that might sway my decision one way or the other?
Personally i prefer going polearm->sentinel->GWM.
polearm give you a 10 feet radius punishment area with reach weapon so the enemy have to waste movement walking around you getting in the back line.
with sentinel later this become even more detergent because if you hit them they cant even move anymore, make enemy with only 5 feet reach impossible to hit you or go after your backline.
GWM is great against low hp/low ac enemies but against high ac enemy it not even worth doing the -5 hit +10 attack.
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That makes sense. I think the higher AC targets has been the problem as of late, but being able to do the same damage without having to take a penalty is sounding a lot better.
I don't have an opinion one way or the other, but when you say, "GWM also gives me a bonus melee attack if I crit or drop the target to 0HP, which would add a 2d6 + 2 (no ability modifier because bonus attack)..." What rule are you quoting for not getting ability modifiers on bonus attacks? I know with Two Weapon Fighting, if you don't have the Two Weapon Fighting style from your class that your offhand attack doesn't get your modifier. But you are not using two weapon fighting in this instance, so your bonus attack would get the +5 from your strength.
I always thought that the bonus attack damage doesn't get the modifier because it's not an "Extra Attack". Is there somewhere in the PHB that denotes you get your ability modifier on the bonus attack damage with the same weapon (or in the case of Polearm Master, the opposite side of the weapon)?
It's an understable mistake.
You're thinking of the Two Weapon Fighting rule, and the Two Weapon Fighting Style counters that rule.
The damage for any other Bonus Action Attack does not suffer from this.
My question is why do you have damage listed as 2d6+7, you said you have +5 Strength, so shouldn't it be 2d6+5?
As a note if you have a +1 polearm, the magic bonus DOES apply to the off-hand attack: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/01/05/polearm-master-does-the-bonus-of-a-magic-weapon-apply-to-the-opposite-end-damage/
Yea, the numbers were messed up with the whole proficiency being added and not knowing about the bonus attack damage. I think I cleared the numbers up and now Polearm Master is about 2dmg on average less than GWM, assuming optimal conditions on each attack and the use of a GreatSword vs something like a GreatAxe.
I'll remember that magic damage as well for the offhand, if my DM is merciful and I come across one in our campaign. Thanks for the tip!
One last note.
Divine Fury should be calculated after all damage. It's only calculated once a turn, not every attack.
In addition it's once on your turn not once a turn so you don't get it on Attacks of Opportunity.
Divine Fury: " While you’re raging, the first creature you hit on each of your turns"
Sneak Attack: "Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack"
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/03/27/is-the-path-of-the-zealots-divine-fury-similar-to-a-rogues-sneak-attack/
You probably have it correct, but I wanted to spell it out as the calculation will change when you get Extra Attack.
I'm disappointed it doesn't apply to AoOs.
Right, but it should also get doubled if the first attack on my turn critically hits, right?
I ran a Barb with PAM and Sentinel...it is an amazing thing when played correctly.
In wide open combat areas take point and get your other melee damage dealers to flank you left and right. When the attacker goes after the soft squishees with you they trigger Sentinel.
In tight combat you end up just locking down the combat in a choke point. It is awsome.
My vote is PAM.
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Based on your OP I'm going to go on the assumption that your RP choices won't factor into this (your backstory doesn't have you growing up in a tribe of PAM or whatever).
While all three (PAM, GWM and Sentinel) make up a GREAT trifecta of Feats, 3 Feats is a pretty big investment so, as you mentioned, unless the DM is generous with the loot choices you might be hampered (speak with your DM about this).
I personally prefer PAM early on because the additional Attack adds more options (striking to finish the main target, striking an additional target, etc). The second attack from PAM also benefits from some buffing spells like Crusader's Mantle where EACH weapon attack gains bonus damage or effects. The second attack is also yet another chance to use damage bonuses from your Str (two attacks at +5 = +10 if they both hit).
All this being said, I would take PAM now and GWM later because the two work SO well together that they're tough to ignore. Sentinel can be taken later down the road as the situation warrants.
YMMV
A barbarian with polearm master and sentinel also gets to reckless attack from 10 ft away, move back and stop the opponent getting close enough to use advantage attacks by hitting the advancing opponent on its turn and reducing its move to 0. After level 5, if the opponent gets past the opportunity attack, on the barbarians turn, the barbarian shoves them back (with advantage while raging) and reckless attacks twice shouting "see if you can do that again"
Anyway your calculation should be more like:
GWM assuming hit on roll of 11+ without -5
Polearm Master assuming hit on roll of 11+
PAM and GWM are both excellent feats for increasing your damage. As Warrior_for_hire mentions in general PAM will yield more damage after factoring hit chance. I checked all AC's from 10-25 and PAM wins out every time. This math only considers the attacks you are for sure able to make during your turn so it is not considering the possible bonus action attack from GWM or the reaction attack for someone entering your reach with PAM. (If anyone cares for the math I made a public copy of my DPR google sheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13HQ3VlR880OU8EEmJAWkB3L1WrcXDkMlZFfDH4J-y-0/edit?usp=sharing)
Also I just wanted to add a few things that haven't been mentioned yet. First, more attacks means more chances of getting your Divine Fury damage. So part of why PAM wins is because you also get your Divine Fury damage more often. Second, at lower tiers of play there is less variance in a targets AC. The designers want to ensure a low CR monster doesn't have an AC that is too hard to hit. But at higher tiers you can have an encounter with a large number of squishy targets or one big bad with a ton of HP but a low AC and these are situations where GWM shines.
Finally, as has been mentioned glaives and halberds are heavy weapons so you can use both PAM and GWM at the same time with them. This on a Zealot barbarian yields the best DPR possible for a barbarian. You can also add Sentinel since you don't want/need any ASIs and you have one of the most potent barbarian builds out there.
Another interesting combo is polearm master, sentinel and crusher. The bonus bludgeoning polearm attack can be used to push your opponent back 5ft, so, at level 5 the barbarian can AoO opponents as they approach and then on their turn:
opponent at 10ft - reckless attack x 2, reckless bonus attack to put opponent at 15ft
opponent at 5 ft (missed AoO) - shove (at advantage if raging) opponent to 10ft, reckless attack, reckless bonus attack to put opponent at 15ft
if there are 2 opponents threatening you, shove 1, bonus attack the other and move back a little
GWM will give you a lot of bonus action attacks. Full 2d6 attacks that you can add the +10 to. Then level 8 you can pick up PAM and kill all the things.
They're both good feats. Personally, i hate to miss so i prefer a bonus action attack to a -5/+10. I also really like extra Opportunity Attack. I find Polearm Master maximize action economy, making more useful use of your bonus action and reaction than Great Weapon Master.
Agreed. Statistically GWM is a net damage increase under most conditions, but when you’re hitting 35% of the time instead of 60%, that just feels bad.
That’s why I don’t use it for Fighters. Reckless Attack makes power attacks much more tolerable, and deadly for that matter.
100% agree.
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Looks fun. Doesn't look like you factored in the To Hit chance when you came up with your "average total damage". Multiply your numbers by 0.6 for a more accurate representation and by 0.4 if you are taking the -5 for GWM. And since the extra Zealot damage is the same for both, then you don't need to include it to understand which is doing more damage for you. You can, but the difference is literally 1 damage in favour of PAM.
SO GWM with the -5 is: (2d6+5+2 rage+10 GWM) x 0.4 = 24x0.4 = 9.6 (Call it 10)
PAM is: (1d10 + 5 +2 rage)x 0.6 + (1d4 + 5 + 2 rage) x 0.6 = 7.5 + 5.7 (call it 7 + 6 = 13)
PAM will do more at your level because it's a whole extra attack being factored in with the consistent use of your bonus action. But keep in mind GWM will give you another attack as a bonus action when you down an opponent, which would double the damage. If you consistently reduce opponents to 0 hp, then GWM will do more damage in combat.
GWM will usually benefit you more at lower levels because the +10 damage has a good chance of killing most things you will encounter, which will trigger the bonus attack.
Use the formula: (Maximum AC to use GWM = your attack bonus - avg damage/2 + 16 ) for when it is more beneficial to use GWM than not.
You will need to make a guess about the targets AC which is often easy enough to do. You don't need to know the exact AC, just if it is below the MAX AC threshold the formula calculates.
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Great Weapon Master and it isn't close. Reckless makes GWM so incredibly reliable and you will get plenty of use out of your BA between rage 1st round and crits or kills on subsequent.
The damage you showed is only comparable from the second turn on because on turn one you don't have a BA for PAM. GWM delivers insane damage from turn one. It is the first and most important feat for a Barbarian (You can certainly play a Barb without GWM, you won't burst into flames or anything, but it is invariably weaker to do so).