I'm thinking of a character and curious why people don't seem to talk about the College of Whispers bard much here? I have this picture of a Don Rickles type character that throws insults around and demoralizes the enemy. Any thoughts?
We've talked about the Whispers Bard before. Usually I see them as insidious and manipulative more than comedic, but I suppose you could make the affable funny person your cover. I really like the College of Whispers, I think there's a lot of rp flavor to be had with them. Grima Wormtongue, Petyr Baelish, Iago from Othello, I think would all make great inspiration for Whispers Bards.
They're generally considered mechanically "bad" in comparison with other bards like Eloquence and Lore. The arguments I often hear are that their features can usually be reproduced by a spell available to all bards and their defining feature (Psychic Blades - essentially a Smite feature) encourages the bard to be a damage-dealer, while still not being very good at it. The flavor they were given in Xanathar's also seems to push them in the evil direction, which turns off a number of players/DMs.
But don't let that discourage you. A counter-argument on the features is that they free up spells known that would get used in their place for other spells (and there are a lot of good ones on the Bard list). To take best advantage of Psychic Blades may require a multiclass, though. I'm currently building up a Hexblade/Whispers Bard that should make a pretty solid damage-dealer with paladin-level nova potential and better spell-casting.
I'm playing a Whispers Bard, and the flavor I gave Elise (half elf bard) is that of someone usually happy but often snarky and hiding a dark underside she doesn't want to show. Also, Psychic Blades is something that has literally saved my party already since no one else had any psychic damage attacks when fighting an enemy who had resistance to near all damage types. Also Mantle of Whispers is better than basic disguises since it allows you to know some of the information about the identity you stole instantly, and stands up to physical inspection, and if you up your CHA early and put expertise in Deception it'll be REALLY hard for anyone to ever see through that disguise. Especially when compared to basic Disguise Self which can be beaten by someone rolling higher than your spell save DC.
In short, I LOVE playing a Whispers Bard. My fave character I've made so far.
For College of Whispers I think the main complaint with it mechanically is that so many of the features are things that Bards can just do using a spell; for example the 6th level Mantle of Whispers is very similar to Disguise Self, meanwhile Words of Terror and Shadow Lore are both things that you could potentially do with spells, or a lenient DM might allow simply with a good enough Deception or Persuasion roll.
With that in mind, you could easily build a Bard along the same thematic lines, with many of the same abilities, while getting more out of another sub-class; you could even mix in Shadow Blade as one of your Magical Secrets if you want to go the stabby-stabby route.
That said, I do really like the Psychic Blades feature as a means of getting a little Rogue into your build without having to multi-class; being able to spend your Bardic Inspiration on yourself from 3rd level is actually a pretty big deal for a Bard, and while the damage won't make you a serious damage dealer it's nothing to sniff at either. It's ideal for a sneaky Bard that might find themselves infiltrating alone or as a pair, so needs to be able to deal some extra damage in a pinch (or to an unsuspecting potential disguise). And as Gryffod says; while Mantle of Whispers is similar to Disguise Self, it's better in many ways as it gives you access to information, stands up to physical inspection and is harder to see through, it's just more awkward to setup.*
I think it's a sub-class that could work well in a heist oriented Blades-in-the-Dark-esque type campaign where the group is going to be a bit more morally grey (so you won't be standing out in a party of goody-goody Clerics and Paladins), or a campaign with a lot of political intrigue, court espionage etc. While some of the features can be replicated with spells, on the other hand that means that you don't need to take those spells, which means you have more open choices available for distractions and being extra sinister.
I'm a big supporter of underused sub-classes, and I think mechanically there's nothing [i]wrong[/i] with College of Whispers and it should still be a lot of fun to play. If I ever get around to playing one I think I'd probably fish for a couple of minor house-rules; for example, with Mantle of Whispers, it seems annoying for the shadow to be lost on a long rest, I'd maybe fish for a change to 48 hours, so you can still rest if something unexpected happens and you desperately need to heal. I'd also discuss the use of the Words of Terror and Shadow Lore features, so your DM knows not to let other party members do anything similar without significant hurdles (to avoid stepping on your whole deal).
Aye, same as Haravikk said. Don't let it discourage you from taking it if you wish to. Bards are so good in general you can take a Bard and have it take any role. For instance, after I take just one level in Rogue, I'll be able to do a big amount of damage from one attack. Soon as my Bard Elise sneaks behind a foe, she'll get the reg D8 from her rapier, a D6 from sneak attack, and the 3D6 from Psychic Blades. That's a big amount of damage, and would be great for the assassin/infiltrator I'm making her into. Paired with the Silence spell cast on my target, she'll be able to take out almost anyone and they'll never be the wiser.
That said, I do really like the Psychic Blades feature as a means of getting a little Rogue into your build without having to multi-class;
I don't know why Rogue is what people cite for Psychic Blades. It's a Smite ability, not a Sneak Attack.
While you're not wrong in terms of how it works mechanically, it's not exactly turning your Bard into a Paladin or Ranger; it can let you overwhelm one or two targets quickly which better supports being sneaky IMO, especially along with the disguise and fear aspects the theme.
Well said. A plan I have for taking out someone quick (if my bard has to sneak in somewhere quietly) is sneak up behind my target, hit them with my rapier, do the sneak attack thing with my one level in rogue, and add the 3D6 Psychic Blades. All that together is almost gauranteed to take out a simple target (say a guard in your way) instantly, and no one will ever know. Even if not, if you cast Silence on the guard and attack, even if it doesn't kill him he won't be able t call for help, and when you hit him next that will certainly do it.
I'm thinking of a character and curious why people don't seem to talk about the College of Whispers bard much here? I have this picture of a Don Rickles type character that throws insults around and demoralizes the enemy. Any thoughts?
We've talked about the Whispers Bard before. Usually I see them as insidious and manipulative more than comedic, but I suppose you could make the affable funny person your cover. I really like the College of Whispers, I think there's a lot of rp flavor to be had with them. Grima Wormtongue, Petyr Baelish, Iago from Othello, I think would all make great inspiration for Whispers Bards.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
They're generally considered mechanically "bad" in comparison with other bards like Eloquence and Lore. The arguments I often hear are that their features can usually be reproduced by a spell available to all bards and their defining feature (Psychic Blades - essentially a Smite feature) encourages the bard to be a damage-dealer, while still not being very good at it. The flavor they were given in Xanathar's also seems to push them in the evil direction, which turns off a number of players/DMs.
But don't let that discourage you. A counter-argument on the features is that they free up spells known that would get used in their place for other spells (and there are a lot of good ones on the Bard list). To take best advantage of Psychic Blades may require a multiclass, though. I'm currently building up a Hexblade/Whispers Bard that should make a pretty solid damage-dealer with paladin-level nova potential and better spell-casting.
I'm playing a Whispers Bard, and the flavor I gave Elise (half elf bard) is that of someone usually happy but often snarky and hiding a dark underside she doesn't want to show. Also, Psychic Blades is something that has literally saved my party already since no one else had any psychic damage attacks when fighting an enemy who had resistance to near all damage types. Also Mantle of Whispers is better than basic disguises since it allows you to know some of the information about the identity you stole instantly, and stands up to physical inspection, and if you up your CHA early and put expertise in Deception it'll be REALLY hard for anyone to ever see through that disguise. Especially when compared to basic Disguise Self which can be beaten by someone rolling higher than your spell save DC.
In short, I LOVE playing a Whispers Bard. My fave character I've made so far.
For College of Whispers I think the main complaint with it mechanically is that so many of the features are things that Bards can just do using a spell; for example the 6th level Mantle of Whispers is very similar to Disguise Self, meanwhile Words of Terror and Shadow Lore are both things that you could potentially do with spells, or a lenient DM might allow simply with a good enough Deception or Persuasion roll.
With that in mind, you could easily build a Bard along the same thematic lines, with many of the same abilities, while getting more out of another sub-class; you could even mix in Shadow Blade as one of your Magical Secrets if you want to go the stabby-stabby route.
That said, I do really like the Psychic Blades feature as a means of getting a little Rogue into your build without having to multi-class; being able to spend your Bardic Inspiration on yourself from 3rd level is actually a pretty big deal for a Bard, and while the damage won't make you a serious damage dealer it's nothing to sniff at either. It's ideal for a sneaky Bard that might find themselves infiltrating alone or as a pair, so needs to be able to deal some extra damage in a pinch (or to an unsuspecting potential disguise). And as Gryffod says; while Mantle of Whispers is similar to Disguise Self, it's better in many ways as it gives you access to information, stands up to physical inspection and is harder to see through, it's just more awkward to setup.*
I think it's a sub-class that could work well in a heist oriented Blades-in-the-Dark-esque type campaign where the group is going to be a bit more morally grey (so you won't be standing out in a party of goody-goody Clerics and Paladins), or a campaign with a lot of political intrigue, court espionage etc. While some of the features can be replicated with spells, on the other hand that means that you don't need to take those spells, which means you have more open choices available for distractions and being extra sinister.
I'm a big supporter of underused sub-classes, and I think mechanically there's nothing [i]wrong[/i] with College of Whispers and it should still be a lot of fun to play. If I ever get around to playing one I think I'd probably fish for a couple of minor house-rules; for example, with Mantle of Whispers, it seems annoying for the shadow to be lost on a long rest, I'd maybe fish for a change to 48 hours, so you can still rest if something unexpected happens and you desperately need to heal. I'd also discuss the use of the Words of Terror and Shadow Lore features, so your DM knows not to let other party members do anything similar without significant hurdles (to avoid stepping on your whole deal).
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Aye, same as Haravikk said. Don't let it discourage you from taking it if you wish to. Bards are so good in general you can take a Bard and have it take any role. For instance, after I take just one level in Rogue, I'll be able to do a big amount of damage from one attack. Soon as my Bard Elise sneaks behind a foe, she'll get the reg D8 from her rapier, a D6 from sneak attack, and the 3D6 from Psychic Blades. That's a big amount of damage, and would be great for the assassin/infiltrator I'm making her into. Paired with the Silence spell cast on my target, she'll be able to take out almost anyone and they'll never be the wiser.
I don't know why Rogue is what people cite for Psychic Blades. It's a Smite ability, not a Sneak Attack.
While you're not wrong in terms of how it works mechanically, it's not exactly turning your Bard into a Paladin or Ranger; it can let you overwhelm one or two targets quickly which better supports being sneaky IMO, especially along with the disguise and fear aspects the theme.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Well said. A plan I have for taking out someone quick (if my bard has to sneak in somewhere quietly) is sneak up behind my target, hit them with my rapier, do the sneak attack thing with my one level in rogue, and add the 3D6 Psychic Blades. All that together is almost gauranteed to take out a simple target (say a guard in your way) instantly, and no one will ever know. Even if not, if you cast Silence on the guard and attack, even if it doesn't kill him he won't be able t call for help, and when you hit him next that will certainly do it.
Ravenloft Dementlieu just meshes with this so well.