I'm making a non-violent Halfling Bard, he wears a rapier purely to appear more dashing. He will be more of a support role and the party "face". I've narrowed down my choices to one of these two. (Lore or Eloquence). What would the experienced Bard players here recommend?
I'm making a non-violent Halfling Bard, he wears a rapier purely to appear more dashing. He will be more of a support role and the party "face". I've narrowed down my choices to one of these two. (Lore or Eloquence). What would the experienced Bard players here recommend?
You're making a non-violent bard and have narrowed your subclass down to the two best at violence? I approve, this is excellent.
Answer is Eloquence. All those incredibly violent spells you'll cast while pretending they aren't because the violence isn't physical, like modify memory, are incredible on an Eloquence bard, and keeping inspiration dice on failure is just top notch support.
The only two things that might make me consider lore under the circumstances you proposed would be a) I wanted to role play lore more, and b) there was something I really wanted from that first magical secrets. But to be honest, role play is flexible, and for support spells, I think the base bard list has enough in terms of buffs, debuffs, and control spells to satisfy even if spells like haste aren't available.
Generally speaking, I'd take eloquence. It doesn't seem particularly controversial given the class features. The bonus proficiencies with lore could be nice, but bard + background is going to give you enough proficiencies to cover the core skills needed for social interactions, and silver tongue is hard to overlook. The closest thing you could get to Universal Speech as a lore bard would probably be tongues, which isn't quite as good.
There's nothing I really want from magical secrets, apart from maybe Haste. Cutting Words is also nice, but it does use up my reaction.
I'm making a non-violent Halfling Bard, he wears a rapier purely to appear more dashing. He will be more of a support role and the party "face". I've narrowed down my choices to one of these two. (Lore or Eloquence). What would the experienced Bard players here recommend?
You're making a non-violent bard and have narrowed your subclass down to the two best at violence? I approve, this is excellent.
Answer is Eloquence. All those incredibly violent spells you'll cast while pretending they aren't because the violence isn't physical, like modify memory, are incredible on an Eloquence bard, and keeping inspiration dice on failure is just top notch support.
It's not violence if the damage isn't physical, right? I mean calling people names isn't violent. Is it?
But yeah, I can see how being able to increase chances of success on things like hold person and other save based spells are going to help a support role. Thank you.
If you're talking party face, you gotta go with Eloquence. Other than Universal Speech every ability is cool, Eloquence is a great support option that makes you better at almost everything many bard builds are trying to do.
I'm making a non-violent Halfling Bard, he wears a rapier purely to appear more dashing. He will be more of a support role and the party "face". I've narrowed down my choices to one of these two. (Lore or Eloquence). What would the experienced Bard players here recommend?
In my opinion this isn't even close, especially if you want to be the face of the party.
For Lore, getting two magic secrets at level 6 is outstanding. But in my opinion it doesn't offer anything else that is a standout. Cutting Words is decent, but in my opinion overrated. NOT bad, just overrated.
Now let's look at Eloquence:
Silver Tongue: If you optimize for Persuasion and Deception (16 CHA + expertise), at levels 3-4 you will never roll below a 17 on either. At level 5 you will never roll below 20 (18 CHA). There is no better face of party in the entire game.
Unsettling Words: This is hugely effective. Lower your opponent's saving throw as a bonus action and cast a save spell on the same turn. You can also just use it to set up the party Wizard, or some other class. It doesn't say it lowers only spell saves, so that would also apply to someone like a Battlemaster Fighter's combat maneuver. That said, the most effective thing is to use it for yourself, as Bards are very heavy on "save or suck" spells.
Unfailing Inspiration: If a die you hand out does not manage to turn failure into success, the player gets to keep the die and try again (until it works).
Universal Speech: Be able to talk to (but not understand) any creature! Combine this with the 1st level ritual spell, Comprehend Languages, and you now have what amounts to a free casting of Tongues, a 3rd level spell.
Infectious Inspiration: The reverse of Unfailing Inspiration. If an inspiration die succeeds, you can give the SAME die to someone else!
To summarize, in terms of mechanical effectiveness there is no competition for the Eloquence Bard.
I'm making a non-violent Halfling Bard, he wears a rapier purely to appear more dashing. He will be more of a support role and the party "face". I've narrowed down my choices to one of these two. (Lore or Eloquence). What would the experienced Bard players here recommend?
In my opinion this isn't even close, especially if you want to be the face of the party.
For Lore, getting two magic secrets at level 6 is outstanding. But in my opinion it doesn't offer anything else that is a standout. Cutting Words is decent, but in my opinion overrated. NOT bad, just overrated.
Now let's look at Eloquence:
Silver Tongue: If you optimize for Persuasion and Deception (16 CHA + expertise), at levels 3-4 you will never roll below a 17 on either. At level 5 you will never roll below 20 (18 CHA). There is no better face of party in the entire game.
Unsettling Words: This is hugely effective. Lower your opponent's saving throw as a bonus action and cast a save spell on the same turn. You can also just use it to set up the party Wizard, or some other class. It doesn't say it lowers only spell saves, so that would also apply to someone like a Battlemaster Fighter's combat maneuver. That said, the most effective thing is to use it for yourself, as Bards are very heavy on "save or suck" spells.
Unfailing Inspiration: If a die you hand out does not manage to turn failure into success, the player gets to keep the die and try again (until it works).
Universal Speech: Be able to talk to (but not understand) any creature! Combine this with the 1st level ritual spell, Comprehend Languages, and you now have what amounts to a free casting of Tongues, a 3rd level spell.
Infectious Inspiration: The reverse of Unfailing Inspiration. If an inspiration die succeeds, you can give the SAME die to someone else!
To summarize, in terms of mechanical effectiveness there is no competition for the Eloquence Bard.
It's not really that simple, especially since you're claiming the Eloquence Bard is better period, not just for being a party face:
A "generic" Bard has 3 skills from their class and 2 from their background, so Perception, Stealth, Persuasion, Insight, and Deception are the low-hanging fruit here. From here:
Eloquence Bard gets Reliable Talent in Persuasion and Deception.
Lore Bard gains 3 more proficiencies - probably Athletics, Arcana, and Intimidation.
So the Eloquence Bard is a better party face so far, but the Lore Bard is more versatile.
Cutting Words vs. Unsettling Words:
Unsettling Words does exactly one thing - it helps save-resisted spells stick. Very straightforward.
Cutting Words does two things:
The Lore Bard can now protect the party by debuffing incoming attacks (usually the attack roll, but it also works on damage rolls).
Critically, the Lore Bard can now debuff enemy ability checks. For example, this makes them incredible stealthy when they want to be, but many many ability checks oppose ability checks, like how Deception usually opposes Insight. Lore Bards can spend their dice on being better liars. This is not to be underestimated.
Magical Secrets vs Unfailing Inspiration + Universal Speech:
Universal Speech is a ribbon - Bards are full casters. Both Bards can solve communication problems with spells if they need to.
Unfailing Inspiration makes inspiration dice used for buffing better, which is excellent, but note that this is mutually exclusive with Unsettling Words.
All Bards get magical secrets at levels 10, 14, and 18, so at later levels getting 2 secrets at L6 isn't the sun, the moon, and the starts, but certainly from L6 to L9, the Lore Bard is rocking spells the Eloquence bard literally can't cast. This will basically stop scaling since you won't have a useful way to swap these spells out, but no-scaling Fireball is still Fireball.
Peerless Skill vs. Infectious Inspiration:
P.S. is just selfish using of BI dice for Ability Checks, making Lore Bards even better skill users on a limited basis. At this point a Lore Bard can blow an Eloquence Bard's Deception out of the water temporarily, adding one die to their Deception check and subtracting one die from the opponent's Insight check. That's a net +2d10 and shortly +2d12 to the Bard's check, which is better than Reliable Talent.
I.I. is functionally 5 additional Inspiration dice per long rest, which is certainly nice - in fact, it's better than the Bard capstone, not that that's a high bar to clear - but like the Lore Bard Magical Secrets, it's not the best thing since sliced bread.
So Eloquence Bards are excellent, make no mistake, but there's still plenty of call for Lore Bards in adventuring parties.
It's not really that simple, especially since you're claiming the Eloquence Bard is better period, not just for being a party face:
A "generic" Bard has 3 skills from their class and 2 from their background, so Perception, Stealth, Persuasion, Insight, and Deception are the low-hanging fruit here. From here:
Eloquence Bard gets Reliable Talent in Persuasion and Deception.
Lore Bard gains 3 more proficiencies - probably Athletics, Arcana, and Intimidation.
So the Eloquence Bard is a better party face so far, but the Lore Bard is more versatile.
Cutting Words vs. Unsettling Words:
Unsettling Words does exactly one thing - it helps save-resisted spells stick. Very straightforward.
Cutting Words does two things:
The Lore Bard can now protect the party by debuffing incoming attacks (usually the attack roll, but it also works on damage rolls).
Critically, the Lore Bard can now debuff enemy ability checks. For example, this makes them incredible stealthy when they want to be, but many many ability checks oppose ability checks, like how Deception usually opposes Insight. Lore Bards can spend their dice on being better liars. This is not to be underestimated.
Magical Secrets vs Unfailing Inspiration + Universal Speech:
Universal Speech is a ribbon - Bards are full casters. Both Bards can solve communication problems with spells if they need to.
Unfailing Inspiration makes inspiration dice used for buffing better, which is excellent, but note that this is mutually exclusive with Unsettling Words.
All Bards get magical secrets at levels 10, 14, and 18, so at later levels getting 2 secrets at L6 isn't the sun, the moon, and the starts, but certainly from L6 to L9, the Lore Bard is rocking spells the Eloquence bard literally can't cast. This will basically stop scaling since you won't have a useful way to swap these spells out, but no-scaling Fireball is still Fireball.
Peerless Skill vs. Infectious Inspiration:
P.S. is just selfish using of BI dice for Ability Checks, making Lore Bards even better skill users on a limited basis. At this point a Lore Bard can blow an Eloquence Bard's Deception out of the water temporarily, adding one die to their Deception check and subtracting one die from the opponent's Insight check. That's a net +2d10 and shortly +2d12 to the Bard's check, which is better than Reliable Talent.
I.I. is functionally 5 additional Inspiration dice per long rest, which is certainly nice - in fact, it's better than the Bard capstone, not that that's a high bar to clear - but like the Lore Bard Magical Secrets, it's not the best thing since sliced bread.
So Eloquence Bards are excellent, make no mistake, but there's still plenty of call for Lore Bards in adventuring parties.
I need to preface this by saying Lore Bards are great. I just think the Eloquence Bards are insanely good, mechanically better than even Lore Bards. That is FAR from saying Lore Bards are obsolete.
1. Getting extra skill proficiencies is nice, but there's a couple things to consider there. First, all Bards get Jack of all Trades, so you're adding less additional points to your rolls than you do when other classes pick up a skill. But also, you're likely adding some skills that don't line up with your ability scores. Let's say you do pick up Arcana and it's time to make a check. Who's going to do it, you or the Wizard? That's not to say it's useless, but rolling guaranteed 17-20+ on social interactions is far more impactful than having a few extra skills (which on Bards are half as valuable).
2. Generally speaking, what is more scary to you? Getting hit by a single attack, or failing an enemy spellcaster's saving throw? How about failing an ability check? I get what the Lore Bard can do here, and it's useful, but Unsettling Words is WAY more powerful.
3. Just to be clear, I would not trade Lore Bard's level 6 magic secrets for ANY of the EB's abilities except for Unsettling Words. In a RP heavy game it would also be difficult to decide between that and Silver Tongue. I would still probably choose the extra magic secrets.
Universal Speech lets you speak to ANY creature (note, it does not say the creature has to even speak a language! It only says your speech is intelligible to "any creature.") That alone seems pretty unique. Combine that with Comprehend Languages as a ritual, and you essentially solved any communication problem, anywhere, without expending any resources other than your one free use.
4. At level 14 the *lowest* an Eloquence Bard can roll for a Persuasion or Deception check is 25, which automatically covers the *vast* majority of checks while expending no resources. On the exceptionally rare DC 30 check, the Lore Bard is statistically more likely to make it. Both can fail a DC 30 check. Only the Lore Bard can fail a DC 25. And that one, extremely situational advantage Lore has is not until level *fourteen*.
Between Unfailing Inspiration and Infectious Inspiration, they are very good but not earth shattering. They're really a way to stretch Inspiration Dice so you can save them (and your bonus action economy) for Unsettling Words. You can make liberal use of the dice for your own purposes without depriving your party of being able to use them too.
2. Generally speaking, what is more scary to you? Getting hit by a single attack, or failing an enemy spellcaster's saving throw? How about failing an ability check? I get what the Lore Bard can do here, and it's useful, but Unsettling Words is WAY more powerful.
Unsettling Words is an offensive ability, Cutting Words is a defensive ability. Neither of them help you to succeed an enemy spellcaster's saving throw, that's something a regular Bardic Inspiration can do. I'm not sure of the point you're making and I'm not sure of your understanding of any of the abilities you're talking about.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
2. Generally speaking, what is more scary to you? Getting hit by a single attack, or failing an enemy spellcaster's saving throw? How about failing an ability check? I get what the Lore Bard can do here, and it's useful, but Unsettling Words is WAY more powerful.
Unsettling Words is an offensive ability, Cutting Words is a defensive ability. Neither of them help you to succeed an enemy spellcaster's saving throw, that's something a regular Bardic Inspiration can do. I'm not sure of the point you're making and I'm not sure of your understanding of any of the abilities you're talking about.
Yes I misspoke (typed) there, I meant Jack of all Trades. I edited my post so thanks for catching that.
My point in the second thing was failing a saving throw against a spell is far worse, ergo, making the enemy fail against your spell is way more powerful than adding defense against a single attack.
My point in the second thing was failing a saving throw against a spell is far worse, ergo, making the enemy fail against your spell is way more powerful than adding defense against a single attack.
Again, one is defensive and one is offensive, so they have completely different uses and circumstances in which they will be more or less powerful. If there is one powerful enemy and you can disable them with a spell then Unsettling Words is probably more tactically effective. On the other hand if you need to protect someone, say the Wizard that is concentrating on the Fly spell that is holding the whole party aloft, then you'll probably be more thankful for the Cutting Words that made the attack that would have broken their concentration miss. I do know that most tactics favor offense over defense, so I can see where you're coming from but on the whole I would say that the comparison is apples to oranges.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
My point in the second thing was failing a saving throw against a spell is far worse, ergo, making the enemy fail against your spell is way more powerful than adding defense against a single attack.
Again, one is defensive and one is offensive, so they have completely different uses and circumstances in which they will be more or less powerful. If there is one powerful enemy and you can disable them with a spell then Unsettling Words is probably more tactically effective. On the other hand if you need to protect someone, say the Wizard that is concentrating on the Fly spell that is holding the whole party aloft, then you'll probably be more thankful for the Cutting Words that made the attack that would have broken their concentration miss. I do know that most tactics favor offense over defense, so I can see where you're coming from but on the whole I would say that the comparison is apples to oranges.
The notion that you can't compare the power and impact of two abilities just because one is offense and other other defense is pretty ridiculous. Let's take that to a greater extreme, being able to cast Disintegrate at will, to getting +2 AC verses an attack as a reaction. Well, gee. Can't compare which is more powerful because one is offense and other other is defense. I guess they're just equal.
Come on, man. Generally speaking spells (especially save spells) are FAR more impactful than a single attack. Which would you rather have on your team, a young Tom Brady or an average starting linebacker. Golly, one is offense and other defense, so I guess it just depends on the situation.
The notion that you can't compare the power and impact of two abilities just because one is offense and other other defense is pretty ridiculous. Let's take that to a greater extreme, being able to cast Disintegrate at will, to getting +2 AC verses an attack as a reaction. Well, gee. Can't compare which is more powerful because one is offense and other other is defense. I guess they're just equal.
Come on, man. Generally speaking spells (especially save spells) are FAR more impactful than a single attack. Which would you rather have on your team, a young Tom Brady or an average starting linebacker. Golly, one is offense and other defense, so I guess it just depends on the situation.
For the most part, sports metaphors are lost on me, I know nothing about Tom Brady except that I've heard his name before.
I've made my point and I'm standing by it, though since our disagreement seems to be largely a matter of degree, I'm not going to quibble with you. Like I said, since many tactics favor offense over defense, I can see your point and where you're coming from. There are probably more situations in which making a disabling spell stick will be more effective. That doesn't change my point that there are also a significant number of times where defense would be more appropriate.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The notion that you can't compare the power and impact of two abilities just because one is offense and other other defense is pretty ridiculous. Let's take that to a greater extreme, being able to cast Disintegrate at will, to getting +2 AC verses an attack as a reaction. Well, gee. Can't compare which is more powerful because one is offense and other other is defense. I guess they're just equal.
Come on, man. Generally speaking spells (especially save spells) are FAR more impactful than a single attack. Which would you rather have on your team, a young Tom Brady or an average starting linebacker. Golly, one is offense and other defense, so I guess it just depends on the situation.
For the most part, sports metaphors are lost on me, I know nothing about Tom Brady except that I've heard his name before.
I've made my point and I'm standing by it, though since our disagreement seems to be largely a matter of degree, I'm not going to quibble with you. Like I said, since many tactics favor offense over defense, I can see your point and where you're coming from. There are probably more situations in which making a disabling spell stick will be more effective. That doesn't change my point that there are also a significant number of times where defense would be more appropriate.
i was unjustifiably abrasiveness in my tone, and for that I apologize. We can agree to disagree on the comparison.
This has been an interesting thread for me so far. My next character I make is going to be a bard of one of these tow subclasses and I find myself going back and forth a lot.
On the one hand, sabotaging saving throws against an enemy is great, and perhaps a good way to eat down on a boss' legendary resistances too. On the other hand, at higher levels, cutting words could potentially turn a heavy hitting attack into a miss or disrupt an enemy's attempt to counterspell a high level party member spell.
Reliable talent for persuasion/deception is certainly nothing to sneeze at, my rogue currently has reliable talent and it's insanely broken for any skill she also has expertise in, but I might favor lore bard here for more skill versatility. Reliable talent is great...but it also sort of saps a little of the fun too when, unless a DC is insanely high for a task, you basically cannot fail it. Super great and all but after playing rogue I may have had my fill of Reliable Talent.
Unfailing speech is potentially interesting, but if I or someone else int he party takes Tongues is it really worth it as a class feature over grabbing two more third level spells? Though what I'd go for with magical secrets would depend on the party my theoretical bard ends up with, likely grabbing useful spells from class lists not represented in the party.
Eloquence is probably more powerful but it's really hard to choose.
This has been an interesting thread for me so far. My next character I make is going to be a bard of one of these tow subclasses and I find myself going back and forth a lot.
On the one hand, sabotaging saving throws against an enemy is great, and perhaps a good way to eat down on a boss' legendary resistances too. On the other hand, at higher levels, cutting words could potentially turn a heavy hitting attack into a miss or disrupt an enemy's attempt to counterspell a high level party member spell.
Reliable talent for persuasion/deception is certainly nothing to sneeze at, my rogue currently has reliable talent and it's insanely broken for any skill she also has expertise in, but I might favor lore bard here for more skill versatility. Reliable talent is great...but it also sort of saps a little of the fun too when, unless a DC is insanely high for a task, you basically cannot fail it. Super great and all but after playing rogue I may have had my fill of Reliable Talent.
Unfailing speech is potentially interesting, but if I or someone else int he party takes Tongues is it really worth it as a class feature over grabbing two more third level spells? Though what I'd go for with magical secrets would depend on the party my theoretical bard ends up with, likely grabbing useful spells from class lists not represented in the party.
Eloquence is probably more powerful but it's really hard to choose.
In my opinion the Eloquence Bard is unquestionably the more powerful of the two, but it's worth repeating that the Lore Bard is FAR from being a bad subclass. It's a really good one, and neither is a bad choice. For me the only draw to the Lore is level 6 magic secrets, but it's a huge draw. Not that their other abilities are bad, but nothing else makes me say "ooo I want to play that one!"
You asked: "Unfailing speech is potentially interesting, but if I or someone else in the party takes Tongues is it really worth it"
YES for a few reasons. First, Tongues costs a 3rd level spell slot. Second, someone in your party would have to prepare Tongues as a spell. Third, with the EB ability *any* creature can understand you, even if they don't have speech. You can tell a bear in the woods, "we mean you no harm, please let us pass." The DM, "Roll for persuasion. Awww crap. Just... okay the bear meanders away."
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Pros and cons of each.
I'm making a non-violent Halfling Bard, he wears a rapier purely to appear more dashing. He will be more of a support role and the party "face". I've narrowed down my choices to one of these two. (Lore or Eloquence). What would the experienced Bard players here recommend?
You're making a non-violent bard and have narrowed your subclass down to the two best at violence? I approve, this is excellent.
Answer is Eloquence. All those incredibly violent spells you'll cast while pretending they aren't because the violence isn't physical, like modify memory, are incredible on an Eloquence bard, and keeping inspiration dice on failure is just top notch support.
.
There's nothing I really want from magical secrets, apart from maybe Haste. Cutting Words is also nice, but it does use up my reaction.
It's not violence if the damage isn't physical, right? I mean calling people names isn't violent. Is it?
But yeah, I can see how being able to increase chances of success on things like hold person and other save based spells are going to help a support role. Thank you.
If you're talking party face, you gotta go with Eloquence. Other than Universal Speech every ability is cool, Eloquence is a great support option that makes you better at almost everything many bard builds are trying to do.
Good shout. Gone with Eloquence, being guaranteed a 17 on persuasion checks, no matter what, at level 3 is amazing.
In my opinion this isn't even close, especially if you want to be the face of the party.
For Lore, getting two magic secrets at level 6 is outstanding. But in my opinion it doesn't offer anything else that is a standout. Cutting Words is decent, but in my opinion overrated. NOT bad, just overrated.
Now let's look at Eloquence:
Silver Tongue: If you optimize for Persuasion and Deception (16 CHA + expertise), at levels 3-4 you will never roll below a 17 on either. At level 5 you will never roll below 20 (18 CHA). There is no better face of party in the entire game.
Unsettling Words: This is hugely effective. Lower your opponent's saving throw as a bonus action and cast a save spell on the same turn. You can also just use it to set up the party Wizard, or some other class. It doesn't say it lowers only spell saves, so that would also apply to someone like a Battlemaster Fighter's combat maneuver. That said, the most effective thing is to use it for yourself, as Bards are very heavy on "save or suck" spells.
Unfailing Inspiration: If a die you hand out does not manage to turn failure into success, the player gets to keep the die and try again (until it works).
Universal Speech: Be able to talk to (but not understand) any creature! Combine this with the 1st level ritual spell, Comprehend Languages, and you now have what amounts to a free casting of Tongues, a 3rd level spell.
Infectious Inspiration: The reverse of Unfailing Inspiration. If an inspiration die succeeds, you can give the SAME die to someone else!
To summarize, in terms of mechanical effectiveness there is no competition for the Eloquence Bard.
It's not really that simple, especially since you're claiming the Eloquence Bard is better period, not just for being a party face:
So Eloquence Bards are excellent, make no mistake, but there's still plenty of call for Lore Bards in adventuring parties.
I need to preface this by saying Lore Bards are great. I just think the Eloquence Bards are insanely good, mechanically better than even Lore Bards. That is FAR from saying Lore Bards are obsolete.
1. Getting extra skill proficiencies is nice, but there's a couple things to consider there. First, all Bards get Jack of all Trades, so you're adding less additional points to your rolls than you do when other classes pick up a skill. But also, you're likely adding some skills that don't line up with your ability scores. Let's say you do pick up Arcana and it's time to make a check. Who's going to do it, you or the Wizard? That's not to say it's useless, but rolling guaranteed 17-20+ on social interactions is far more impactful than having a few extra skills (which on Bards are half as valuable).
2. Generally speaking, what is more scary to you? Getting hit by a single attack, or failing an enemy spellcaster's saving throw? How about failing an ability check? I get what the Lore Bard can do here, and it's useful, but Unsettling Words is WAY more powerful.
3. Just to be clear, I would not trade Lore Bard's level 6 magic secrets for ANY of the EB's abilities except for Unsettling Words. In a RP heavy game it would also be difficult to decide between that and Silver Tongue. I would still probably choose the extra magic secrets.
Universal Speech lets you speak to ANY creature (note, it does not say the creature has to even speak a language! It only says your speech is intelligible to "any creature.") That alone seems pretty unique. Combine that with Comprehend Languages as a ritual, and you essentially solved any communication problem, anywhere, without expending any resources other than your one free use.
4. At level 14 the *lowest* an Eloquence Bard can roll for a Persuasion or Deception check is 25, which automatically covers the *vast* majority of checks while expending no resources. On the exceptionally rare DC 30 check, the Lore Bard is statistically more likely to make it. Both can fail a DC 30 check. Only the Lore Bard can fail a DC 25. And that one, extremely situational advantage Lore has is not until level *fourteen*.
Between Unfailing Inspiration and Infectious Inspiration, they are very good but not earth shattering. They're really a way to stretch Inspiration Dice so you can save them (and your bonus action economy) for Unsettling Words. You can make liberal use of the dice for your own purposes without depriving your party of being able to use them too.
No they don't. Did you mean Jack of All Trades?
Unsettling Words is an offensive ability, Cutting Words is a defensive ability. Neither of them help you to succeed an enemy spellcaster's saving throw, that's something a regular Bardic Inspiration can do. I'm not sure of the point you're making and I'm not sure of your understanding of any of the abilities you're talking about.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Yes I misspoke (typed) there, I meant Jack of all Trades. I edited my post so thanks for catching that.
My point in the second thing was failing a saving throw against a spell is far worse, ergo, making the enemy fail against your spell is way more powerful than adding defense against a single attack.
Again, one is defensive and one is offensive, so they have completely different uses and circumstances in which they will be more or less powerful. If there is one powerful enemy and you can disable them with a spell then Unsettling Words is probably more tactically effective. On the other hand if you need to protect someone, say the Wizard that is concentrating on the Fly spell that is holding the whole party aloft, then you'll probably be more thankful for the Cutting Words that made the attack that would have broken their concentration miss. I do know that most tactics favor offense over defense, so I can see where you're coming from but on the whole I would say that the comparison is apples to oranges.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The notion that you can't compare the power and impact of two abilities just because one is offense and other other defense is pretty ridiculous. Let's take that to a greater extreme, being able to cast Disintegrate at will, to getting +2 AC verses an attack as a reaction. Well, gee. Can't compare which is more powerful because one is offense and other other is defense. I guess they're just equal.
Come on, man. Generally speaking spells (especially save spells) are FAR more impactful than a single attack. Which would you rather have on your team, a young Tom Brady or an average starting linebacker. Golly, one is offense and other defense, so I guess it just depends on the situation.
For the most part, sports metaphors are lost on me, I know nothing about Tom Brady except that I've heard his name before.
I've made my point and I'm standing by it, though since our disagreement seems to be largely a matter of degree, I'm not going to quibble with you. Like I said, since many tactics favor offense over defense, I can see your point and where you're coming from. There are probably more situations in which making a disabling spell stick will be more effective. That doesn't change my point that there are also a significant number of times where defense would be more appropriate.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
i was unjustifiably abrasiveness in my tone, and for that I apologize. We can agree to disagree on the comparison.
This has been an interesting thread for me so far. My next character I make is going to be a bard of one of these tow subclasses and I find myself going back and forth a lot.
On the one hand, sabotaging saving throws against an enemy is great, and perhaps a good way to eat down on a boss' legendary resistances too. On the other hand, at higher levels, cutting words could potentially turn a heavy hitting attack into a miss or disrupt an enemy's attempt to counterspell a high level party member spell.
Reliable talent for persuasion/deception is certainly nothing to sneeze at, my rogue currently has reliable talent and it's insanely broken for any skill she also has expertise in, but I might favor lore bard here for more skill versatility. Reliable talent is great...but it also sort of saps a little of the fun too when, unless a DC is insanely high for a task, you basically cannot fail it. Super great and all but after playing rogue I may have had my fill of Reliable Talent.
Unfailing speech is potentially interesting, but if I or someone else int he party takes Tongues is it really worth it as a class feature over grabbing two more third level spells? Though what I'd go for with magical secrets would depend on the party my theoretical bard ends up with, likely grabbing useful spells from class lists not represented in the party.
Eloquence is probably more powerful but it's really hard to choose.
In my opinion the Eloquence Bard is unquestionably the more powerful of the two, but it's worth repeating that the Lore Bard is FAR from being a bad subclass. It's a really good one, and neither is a bad choice. For me the only draw to the Lore is level 6 magic secrets, but it's a huge draw. Not that their other abilities are bad, but nothing else makes me say "ooo I want to play that one!"
You asked: "Unfailing speech is potentially interesting, but if I or someone else in the party takes Tongues is it really worth it"
YES for a few reasons. First, Tongues costs a 3rd level spell slot. Second, someone in your party would have to prepare Tongues as a spell. Third, with the EB ability *any* creature can understand you, even if they don't have speech. You can tell a bear in the woods, "we mean you no harm, please let us pass." The DM, "Roll for persuasion. Awww crap. Just... okay the bear meanders away."