So I'm joining a WBTW campaign in a few days, and I'm coming in at Level 5. I definitely wanted to be a Swashbuckler Swords Bard. But I was wondering how many levels to put into each class. If it helps I'm playing a noble type character as well.
I see you posted this in the Rogue forum as well! I'll stick to this thread, I guess.
You can't be a Swashbuckler/Swords Bard at level 5. The minimum level for that is 6 (3 in each class).
If you don't tell us what your character goals are, it'll be pretty hard for us to answer your question. You posted your current build so we can critique it, sure, but we just don't know what you're trying to do. And the answer at level 6 has to be 3/3 for your proposal to even exist, so what are you looking for? An answer at level 7? 8?
The most notable inflection points in Swords Bard are at levels 3 (Expertise and very limited Defensive Flourishes per day, plus dueling), 5 (4 defensive flourishes per short rest!), and 6 (extra attack, on the off chance you're not currently casting spells). The most notable inflection points in Swashbuckler are 3 (obviously) and then every level through 9 except for 4 and 8 which are nothing but ASIs - and then it keeps going. The only point you desperately want to avoid reaching is Swashbuckler 13, which is utterly useless to every Swashbuckler. The Swords Bard has to tunnel through to level 10 before the next interesting point (the interim is largely just more spell slots), and then more tunneling to 14 (for infinite weak defensive flourishes).
So tell us what you're trying to do, what you envision, and then we can offer some input. I did notice you took Booming Blade, but that doesn't mix well with Swords Bard since only Bladesingers can make it play nicely with Extra Attack.
If you don't tell us what your character goals are, it'll be pretty hard for us to answer your question. You posted your current build so we can critique it, sure, but we just don't know what you're trying to do. And the answer at level 6 has to be 3/3 for your proposal to even exist, so what are you looking for? An answer at level 7? 8?
Well, the goal of my character is to become a great duelist. Part of his backstory is that he was kicked out of his family, which was known for their dueling, and he wants to be the greatest duelist to spite them.
As for myself as a player, I want to focus on being a midrange fighter, going in and out of melee when I can while also supporting with magic.
Well, the goal of my character is to become a great duelist. Part of his backstory is that he was kicked out of his family, which was known for their dueling, and he wants to be the greatest duelist to spite them.
As for myself as a player, I want to focus on being a midrange fighter, going in and out of melee when I can while also supporting with magic.
You'll hit the "sweet spot" for this at approximately Swashbuckler 4/Swords Bard 5-6 (Swashbuckler 4 is there only for the ASI, but you do want to get your Charisma up to fuel your flourishes), since you'll have Cunning Action Dash + whoever you try to hit can't OA you + you can spam flourishes and recover them with a Short Rest. You can reduce the number of ASIs you need with Hexblade 1 - with that, you can leave Dex at 14 and focus entirely on your Charisma. The higher you climb in Bard, the more you're focusing on magic support, while the higher you climb in Swashbuckler, the more you're focusing on the Dueling aspect.
WBTW spans form level 1-8 ish. Within the scope of the adventure try a 4/4 split. At least that way you will get 2 ASI/Feats
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I'm just wondering how critical it is to actually multiclass?
The problem is that you're losing damage no matter which way you split the build; you want 5 levels in Swords for Extra Attack, short rest inspiration and 3rd-level casting, meanwhile Rogue gains Sneak Attack damage on every odd level (so you want 5th on that for the third d6).
If we're assuming a maximum of level 8 and you must multiclass then I'd go Swords 5/Swashbuckler 3 and suffer the loss of an ability score increase, as you don't need to max out your Charisma, +4 should still be plenty. The problem with this option is that you're delaying both Extra Attack and Sneak Attack, so while the combo is nice once you've got both, you're looking at 6th-level minimum for that, so at least 1-3 levels of potentially feeling quite weak compared to other martials (and casters, since you're slowing Bard magic as well).
If multiclassing is only something you're considering for the flavour, I'd suggest just going College of Swords only; okay, you lose Sneak Attack, Fancy Footwork and some other benefits of Swashbuckler, but you could always just take Mobile as a feat for the same "free disengage" and be a ridiculously fast Bard (50-foot move when attacking). With two attacks, maybe even a third if you go two-weapon fighting using shortswords then you'll do more damage than you'd have got from sneak attack anyway, be super mobile and you can flavour the Bard however you like. If you want them to be a pirate, they're a pirate, there's even a background for that.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the multiclass is a bad idea, but I think you need to be looking at a higher level campaign than one that might end at 8th-level, I'd be shooting for 10+. If you speak to your DM and know they're aiming higher for this one, then go for it, but if they're playing an abridged version with an advanced started then it may not be worth it IMO.
I'm playing a similar character, including having the Noble Background. We started at level 3 and I'm currently 300xp away from level 12. I had some thoughts in another thread about how I constructed the build:
Which brings me to my personal anecdote about my current character. I was a veteran roleplayer, but still pretty new to D&D. My DM had tried to run a game of 3.5, but it died after one session so when I recycled the character for his 5Ed game, I still thought of him as my first D&D character. I love bards and wanted to play a gish, someone who uses magic to enhance their swordplay rather than a spellcaster who occasionally swings a sword, so I chose to play a College of Swords Bard. I requested that we start at level 3 because I wanted everyone to have some sort of signature style inherent in their gameplay and I saw the subclasses as adding that, just my personal view. After half a dozen sessions and hitting level 4 I finally had gained enough knowledge about 5Ed to stop pulling out the books for basic stuff like attack rolls and spells and could think more critically about my gaming experience. I looked ahead and realized a bit glumly that Bards are full spellcasters and that I wasn't really going to be getting much better at swinging a sword than I already was, while my spells would far outstrip and outshine my martial skills. I could keep playing the same way I had been and start to look like a low level minion compared to my partymates, or I could switch my tactics and completely go against the playstyle that I wanted to play. Neither of these seemed fun for me, so I started looking around for options. My actually DM let me completely rebuild my character in another class for one session to try it out and I really enjoyed playing as a level 4 Swashbuckler Rogue, but I did miss all of the social utility that I had become accustomed to as a Bard, which was the other half of the playstyle I wanted, a charming gish. So after awhile I came up with a plan to have my cake and eat it, too.
I had always been a fan of Eilistraee and her sword dancers and wanted that grace to be a part of this character's gish style, so I reverted my character back to the 4th level Swords Bard and when I hit level 5 I took 1 level of Hexblade, reskinned as Eilistraee's Moonblade. Now my Dex and Cha were even at this time so there was no sudden disparity in sword skill to smooth over. We had also just escaped from a foray into the Underdark. The session was unavoidably cut short due to a scheduling issue and my DM was forced to handwave and teleport us back to Waterdeep and I asked him if it was okay to say that the sound of mysterious hunting horns led us back to the surface, which allowed me to write a dream sequence where my bard met Eilistraee and received her blessing. This allowed me to pick up Shield as well as proficiency with shields, which I reskinned as a cloak wrapped around an arm so I could be a spanish style rapier and cloak fencer. Booming Blade rounded out my magical melee skill set.
Then I started taking levels of Rogue, becoming a Swashbuckler at level 8, and getting my second ASI at level 9, which I put into Charisma. This means I'm using Charisma for melee, for spellcasting, and as an initiative boost, which allows me to grow as a swordsman and a spellslinger at the same time. Plotting out my levels ahead of time I intended to end roughly at Swords 6/ Hexblade 3/ Swashbuckler 11 because that maintains a character who is mainly a charming swordsman (I love Panache and the idea of just being that silver tongued that I can do that without a spell) but also has enough magic tricks up his sleeve to make that swordplay flashier. I wouldn't have any spells higher than 3rd level, which I viewed as a benefit since I mostly wanted spells that were utility and enhancement and not spells that were huge game changers in and of themselves, that didn't fit the character concept I wanted. At level 9 (Swords 4/Swashbuckler 4/Hexblade 1) any level I took would result in meaningful growth, which allowed me to still be responsive to the plot in how I progress in my plan. I just hit level 10 in my game, for example, and we're currently in a plot arc that has open terrain and military leanings so I took that level in Bard, allowing me to better support my Fighter partymate in his quest to take over as warlord of the local orc horde.
I think I would recommend you start with Rogue and take it to 4 levels for the ASI and then start adding to your Bard levels. Swashbuckler gets your basic duelist idea down and then the Bard can come in to supplement. I would probably only recommend taking Bard to 5 or 6 unless you want to be much more of a spellcaster than a sword swinger.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
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So I'm joining a WBTW campaign in a few days, and I'm coming in at Level 5. I definitely wanted to be a Swashbuckler Swords Bard. But I was wondering how many levels to put into each class. If it helps I'm playing a noble type character as well.
My Character Sheet if that helps
https://ddb.ac/characters/73766049/G7pszE
I see you posted this in the Rogue forum as well! I'll stick to this thread, I guess.
The most notable inflection points in Swords Bard are at levels 3 (Expertise and very limited Defensive Flourishes per day, plus dueling), 5 (4 defensive flourishes per short rest!), and 6 (extra attack, on the off chance you're not currently casting spells). The most notable inflection points in Swashbuckler are 3 (obviously) and then every level through 9 except for 4 and 8 which are nothing but ASIs - and then it keeps going. The only point you desperately want to avoid reaching is Swashbuckler 13, which is utterly useless to every Swashbuckler. The Swords Bard has to tunnel through to level 10 before the next interesting point (the interim is largely just more spell slots), and then more tunneling to 14 (for infinite weak defensive flourishes).
So tell us what you're trying to do, what you envision, and then we can offer some input. I did notice you took Booming Blade, but that doesn't mix well with Swords Bard since only Bladesingers can make it play nicely with Extra Attack.
Yeah, I was planning to start with 3 Levels in one class and two in the other and put the one on second to third once I leveled up
Well, the goal of my character is to become a great duelist. Part of his backstory is that he was kicked out of his family, which was known for their dueling, and he wants to be the greatest duelist to spite them.
As for myself as a player, I want to focus on being a midrange fighter, going in and out of melee when I can while also supporting with magic.
You'll hit the "sweet spot" for this at approximately Swashbuckler 4/Swords Bard 5-6 (Swashbuckler 4 is there only for the ASI, but you do want to get your Charisma up to fuel your flourishes), since you'll have Cunning Action Dash + whoever you try to hit can't OA you + you can spam flourishes and recover them with a Short Rest. You can reduce the number of ASIs you need with Hexblade 1 - with that, you can leave Dex at 14 and focus entirely on your Charisma. The higher you climb in Bard, the more you're focusing on magic support, while the higher you climb in Swashbuckler, the more you're focusing on the Dueling aspect.
WBTW spans form level 1-8 ish. Within the scope of the adventure try a 4/4 split. At least that way you will get 2 ASI/Feats
Check out my Disabled & Dragons Youtube Channel for 5e Monster and Player Tactics. Helping the Disabled Community and Players and DM’s (both new and experienced) get into D&D. Plus there is a talking Dragon named Quill.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPPmyTI0tZ6nM-bzY0IG3ww
I'm just wondering how critical it is to actually multiclass?
The problem is that you're losing damage no matter which way you split the build; you want 5 levels in Swords for Extra Attack, short rest inspiration and 3rd-level casting, meanwhile Rogue gains Sneak Attack damage on every odd level (so you want 5th on that for the third d6).
If we're assuming a maximum of level 8 and you must multiclass then I'd go Swords 5/Swashbuckler 3 and suffer the loss of an ability score increase, as you don't need to max out your Charisma, +4 should still be plenty. The problem with this option is that you're delaying both Extra Attack and Sneak Attack, so while the combo is nice once you've got both, you're looking at 6th-level minimum for that, so at least 1-3 levels of potentially feeling quite weak compared to other martials (and casters, since you're slowing Bard magic as well).
If multiclassing is only something you're considering for the flavour, I'd suggest just going College of Swords only; okay, you lose Sneak Attack, Fancy Footwork and some other benefits of Swashbuckler, but you could always just take Mobile as a feat for the same "free disengage" and be a ridiculously fast Bard (50-foot move when attacking). With two attacks, maybe even a third if you go two-weapon fighting using shortswords then you'll do more damage than you'd have got from sneak attack anyway, be super mobile and you can flavour the Bard however you like. If you want them to be a pirate, they're a pirate, there's even a background for that.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think the multiclass is a bad idea, but I think you need to be looking at a higher level campaign than one that might end at 8th-level, I'd be shooting for 10+. If you speak to your DM and know they're aiming higher for this one, then go for it, but if they're playing an abridged version with an advanced started then it may not be worth it IMO.
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I'm playing a similar character, including having the Noble Background. We started at level 3 and I'm currently 300xp away from level 12. I had some thoughts in another thread about how I constructed the build:
Which brings me to my personal anecdote about my current character. I was a veteran roleplayer, but still pretty new to D&D. My DM had tried to run a game of 3.5, but it died after one session so when I recycled the character for his 5Ed game, I still thought of him as my first D&D character. I love bards and wanted to play a gish, someone who uses magic to enhance their swordplay rather than a spellcaster who occasionally swings a sword, so I chose to play a College of Swords Bard. I requested that we start at level 3 because I wanted everyone to have some sort of signature style inherent in their gameplay and I saw the subclasses as adding that, just my personal view. After half a dozen sessions and hitting level 4 I finally had gained enough knowledge about 5Ed to stop pulling out the books for basic stuff like attack rolls and spells and could think more critically about my gaming experience. I looked ahead and realized a bit glumly that Bards are full spellcasters and that I wasn't really going to be getting much better at swinging a sword than I already was, while my spells would far outstrip and outshine my martial skills. I could keep playing the same way I had been and start to look like a low level minion compared to my partymates, or I could switch my tactics and completely go against the playstyle that I wanted to play. Neither of these seemed fun for me, so I started looking around for options. My actually DM let me completely rebuild my character in another class for one session to try it out and I really enjoyed playing as a level 4 Swashbuckler Rogue, but I did miss all of the social utility that I had become accustomed to as a Bard, which was the other half of the playstyle I wanted, a charming gish. So after awhile I came up with a plan to have my cake and eat it, too.
I had always been a fan of Eilistraee and her sword dancers and wanted that grace to be a part of this character's gish style, so I reverted my character back to the 4th level Swords Bard and when I hit level 5 I took 1 level of Hexblade, reskinned as Eilistraee's Moonblade. Now my Dex and Cha were even at this time so there was no sudden disparity in sword skill to smooth over. We had also just escaped from a foray into the Underdark. The session was unavoidably cut short due to a scheduling issue and my DM was forced to handwave and teleport us back to Waterdeep and I asked him if it was okay to say that the sound of mysterious hunting horns led us back to the surface, which allowed me to write a dream sequence where my bard met Eilistraee and received her blessing. This allowed me to pick up Shield as well as proficiency with shields, which I reskinned as a cloak wrapped around an arm so I could be a spanish style rapier and cloak fencer. Booming Blade rounded out my magical melee skill set.
Then I started taking levels of Rogue, becoming a Swashbuckler at level 8, and getting my second ASI at level 9, which I put into Charisma. This means I'm using Charisma for melee, for spellcasting, and as an initiative boost, which allows me to grow as a swordsman and a spellslinger at the same time. Plotting out my levels ahead of time I intended to end roughly at Swords 6/ Hexblade 3/ Swashbuckler 11 because that maintains a character who is mainly a charming swordsman (I love Panache and the idea of just being that silver tongued that I can do that without a spell) but also has enough magic tricks up his sleeve to make that swordplay flashier. I wouldn't have any spells higher than 3rd level, which I viewed as a benefit since I mostly wanted spells that were utility and enhancement and not spells that were huge game changers in and of themselves, that didn't fit the character concept I wanted. At level 9 (Swords 4/Swashbuckler 4/Hexblade 1) any level I took would result in meaningful growth, which allowed me to still be responsive to the plot in how I progress in my plan. I just hit level 10 in my game, for example, and we're currently in a plot arc that has open terrain and military leanings so I took that level in Bard, allowing me to better support my Fighter partymate in his quest to take over as warlord of the local orc horde.
I think I would recommend you start with Rogue and take it to 4 levels for the ASI and then start adding to your Bard levels. Swashbuckler gets your basic duelist idea down and then the Bard can come in to supplement. I would probably only recommend taking Bard to 5 or 6 unless you want to be much more of a spellcaster than a sword swinger.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!