I have been looking through videos and posts about the Spirits Bard, both from the UA and the Ravenloft release, and the problem with the spiritual focus option seems well known and documented but unresolved. I have seen creative interpretations about the use of a focus being OK even on spells without a (non-costly) material component (as long as you are holding it), but that seems like a bit of stretch to me, while others rightly call this fix a homebrew. Some people argue that it is was meant to be like the Artificer "tools required" feature, but even that says "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)."
The issue is the feature that says "At 6th level, when you cast a bard spell that deals damage or heals HP through this focus, you can roll a d6 and add the result to one damage or healing roll." I do not really care about a d6 to damage, but surely it was intended to add a d6 to cure wounds and healing word. It really stinks that there is no healing spell that this applies to except Regenerate, because none of those spells require material components. The UA video with James Haeck and Todd Kenreck assumes that this can apply to spells without material components. But the consensus is that that is not so.
It would be great if someone could tweet JC and the rules team and see if they really intended this to be a feature that allows the Bard to add a d6 to "healing rolls" of a "bard spell" when there are no such spells that have material components and, thus, none that use a spellcasting focus. I cannot see any possible fix within the existing rules, which is maybe why it has not been clarified. So perhaps it needs an entire erratum along the lines of existing homebrews: "the spirits aid you as long as you hold your spellcasting focus and allow you to add a d6 to any one damage or healing roll, once per turn, from any bard spell." It is hard to call this overpowered coming online at 6th level.
Thanks for any help in getting the attention of the rules team!
It's kinda impossible to know what their actual intend was but yes RAW it's very limited to what spells it'd apply and using it the same way as the Artificer is 100% homebrew as Bards completely lack a feature that'd change your spellcasting like this.
Tweeting JC won't do any good though to be honest. He rarely talks RAI and instead usually defaults to justifying the RAW instead. Even if he'd confirm the RAI it doesn't have much more weight than whatever you decide for yourself with the group you're playing with though. The only thing that has any real weight is whatever gets added to the Sage Advice Compendium (SAC).
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Thanks for the response. Have they made and SAC changes RE: Van Richten's Guide? I worry that it is the sort of thing that they will totally ignore unless brought to their attention. Maybe the twitterverse can help boil up a response in the future. I suppose I am happy with my Spirits bard even if I ignore this feature. But surely their idea of having it come online at 6th level was that it would apply to a lot of spells and help them scale, since Bards do not get much in the way of damage options.
It's unlikely they're going to do much at all to be fair considering they started work on OneDnD now. It's supposed to be backwards compatible so don't expect a rework of later content like the Spirit Bard, but their focus is definitely going to be there now instead of polishing already released content.
That being said, why do you need it at all? Are you regularly playing a Spirit Bard with various new groups or something? Just bring it up with your DM when you're actually going to play one. It's not like it's going to turn the subclass into some kind of broken build or anything lol
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I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Yeah, I suppose their plate is full. I am playing one with a new DM who needs help with the rules, so I wanted to get him a clear answer. But just for my own rules-OCD and for the sake of my love of the Bard subclass, I agree with the community that has to be some sort of oversight about the the focus/material component rules and their interaction with the available Bard spells and with healing spells in general.
I have been looking through videos and posts about the Spirits Bard, both from the UA and the Ravenloft release, and the problem with the spiritual focus option seems well known and documented but unresolved. I have seen creative interpretations about the use of a focus being OK even on spells without a (non-costly) material component (as long as you are holding it), but that seems like a bit of stretch to me, while others rightly call this fix a homebrew. Some people argue that it is was meant to be like the Artificer "tools required" feature, but even that says "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)."
The issue is the feature that says "At 6th level, when you cast a bard spell that deals damage or heals HP through this focus, you can roll a d6 and add the result to one damage or healing roll." I do not really care about a d6 to damage, but surely it was intended to add a d6 to cure wounds and healing word. It really stinks that there is no healing spell that this applies to except Regenerate, because none of those spells require material components. The UA video with James Haeck and Todd Kenreck assumes that this can apply to spells without material components. But the consensus is that that is not so.
It would be great if someone could tweet JC and the rules team and see if they really intended this to be a feature that allows the Bard to add a d6 to "healing rolls" of a "bard spell" when there are no such spells that have material components and, thus, none that use a spellcasting focus. I cannot see any possible fix within the existing rules, which is maybe why it has not been clarified. So perhaps it needs an entire erratum along the lines of existing homebrews: "the spirits aid you as long as you hold your spellcasting focus and allow you to add a d6 to any one damage or healing roll, once per turn, from any bard spell." It is hard to call this overpowered coming online at 6th level.
Thanks for any help in getting the attention of the rules team!
What seems to be fundamentally confusing you is that you think that casting a spell through a focus is related to using that focus as a focus. There are no game rules stating this anywhere, and there is evidence - some of which you presented in your post - that it is not.
The truth of the matter is that casting a spell through a focus is not a defined game term and anyone telling you with confidence what it means is mistaken and/or lying. Because we have no game definition for it, your DM (you, if you're the DM) has to define it for your table. Per general 5E guidelines, you are expected to faithfully obey common English (assuming you are trying to interpret the RAW rather than contradict it with a houserule), but there are a wide variety of ways you can choose to interpret it, including e.g. demanding your PC drill a hole in their focus and literally cast through the hole.
Thank for the reply. The question of course still stands. That is, I asked for someone to help draw attention to this lack of clarity in the rules. Your response that the rules do not exist and that they should just be made up is further evidence that some clarity about this would help. Of course all the video and rules lawyers on youtube disagree and believe that the material component replacement rule is the only time a focus is used (as evidenced for example by the quote given about artificers which explicitly pairs use of a focus with having the M component). Regardless, by highlighting a deeper ambiguity in the rules, the question of when to add this d6 and when you are casting a spell "through a focus" is even more acute.
I will say that the other feature of the Spirits Bard at level three does make an appeal to a use of the focus that is not really defined by any rules, so it might be dismissed as flavor. Nonetheless, it does offer some insight into design intention, I think.
"Tales from Beyond: You reach out to spirits who tell their tales through you. While you are holding your Spiritual Focus, you can use a bonus action to expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration and roll on the Spirit Tales table using your Bardic Inspiration die to determine the tale the spirits direct you to tell. You retain the tale in mind until you bestow the tale’s effect or you finish a short or long rest."
Presumably the designers intended the same "while you are holding your Spiritual Focus" clause to be how the level 6 ability works...
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I have been looking through videos and posts about the Spirits Bard, both from the UA and the Ravenloft release, and the problem with the spiritual focus option seems well known and documented but unresolved. I have seen creative interpretations about the use of a focus being OK even on spells without a (non-costly) material component (as long as you are holding it), but that seems like a bit of stretch to me, while others rightly call this fix a homebrew. Some people argue that it is was meant to be like the Artificer "tools required" feature, but even that says "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)."
The issue is the feature that says "At 6th level, when you cast a bard spell that deals damage or heals HP through this focus, you can roll a d6 and add the result to one damage or healing roll." I do not really care about a d6 to damage, but surely it was intended to add a d6 to cure wounds and healing word. It really stinks that there is no healing spell that this applies to except Regenerate, because none of those spells require material components. The UA video with James Haeck and Todd Kenreck assumes that this can apply to spells without material components. But the consensus is that that is not so.
It would be great if someone could tweet JC and the rules team and see if they really intended this to be a feature that allows the Bard to add a d6 to "healing rolls" of a "bard spell" when there are no such spells that have material components and, thus, none that use a spellcasting focus. I cannot see any possible fix within the existing rules, which is maybe why it has not been clarified. So perhaps it needs an entire erratum along the lines of existing homebrews: "the spirits aid you as long as you hold your spellcasting focus and allow you to add a d6 to any one damage or healing roll, once per turn, from any bard spell." It is hard to call this overpowered coming online at 6th level.
Thanks for any help in getting the attention of the rules team!
It's kinda impossible to know what their actual intend was but yes RAW it's very limited to what spells it'd apply and using it the same way as the Artificer is 100% homebrew as Bards completely lack a feature that'd change your spellcasting like this.
Tweeting JC won't do any good though to be honest. He rarely talks RAI and instead usually defaults to justifying the RAW instead. Even if he'd confirm the RAI it doesn't have much more weight than whatever you decide for yourself with the group you're playing with though. The only thing that has any real weight is whatever gets added to the Sage Advice Compendium (SAC).
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Thanks for the response. Have they made and SAC changes RE: Van Richten's Guide? I worry that it is the sort of thing that they will totally ignore unless brought to their attention. Maybe the twitterverse can help boil up a response in the future. I suppose I am happy with my Spirits bard even if I ignore this feature. But surely their idea of having it come online at 6th level was that it would apply to a lot of spells and help them scale, since Bards do not get much in the way of damage options.
It's unlikely they're going to do much at all to be fair considering they started work on OneDnD now. It's supposed to be backwards compatible so don't expect a rework of later content like the Spirit Bard, but their focus is definitely going to be there now instead of polishing already released content.
That being said, why do you need it at all? Are you regularly playing a Spirit Bard with various new groups or something? Just bring it up with your DM when you're actually going to play one. It's not like it's going to turn the subclass into some kind of broken build or anything lol
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Yeah, I suppose their plate is full. I am playing one with a new DM who needs help with the rules, so I wanted to get him a clear answer. But just for my own rules-OCD and for the sake of my love of the Bard subclass, I agree with the community that has to be some sort of oversight about the the focus/material component rules and their interaction with the available Bard spells and with healing spells in general.
What seems to be fundamentally confusing you is that you think that casting a spell through a focus is related to using that focus as a focus. There are no game rules stating this anywhere, and there is evidence - some of which you presented in your post - that it is not.
The truth of the matter is that casting a spell through a focus is not a defined game term and anyone telling you with confidence what it means is mistaken and/or lying. Because we have no game definition for it, your DM (you, if you're the DM) has to define it for your table. Per general 5E guidelines, you are expected to faithfully obey common English (assuming you are trying to interpret the RAW rather than contradict it with a houserule), but there are a wide variety of ways you can choose to interpret it, including e.g. demanding your PC drill a hole in their focus and literally cast through the hole.
Thank for the reply. The question of course still stands. That is, I asked for someone to help draw attention to this lack of clarity in the rules. Your response that the rules do not exist and that they should just be made up is further evidence that some clarity about this would help. Of course all the video and rules lawyers on youtube disagree and believe that the material component replacement rule is the only time a focus is used (as evidenced for example by the quote given about artificers which explicitly pairs use of a focus with having the M component). Regardless, by highlighting a deeper ambiguity in the rules, the question of when to add this d6 and when you are casting a spell "through a focus" is even more acute.
I will say that the other feature of the Spirits Bard at level three does make an appeal to a use of the focus that is not really defined by any rules, so it might be dismissed as flavor. Nonetheless, it does offer some insight into design intention, I think.
"Tales from Beyond: You reach out to spirits who tell their tales through you. While you are holding your Spiritual Focus, you can use a bonus action to expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration and roll on the Spirit Tales table using your Bardic Inspiration die to determine the tale the spirits direct you to tell. You retain the tale in mind until you bestow the tale’s effect or you finish a short or long rest."
Presumably the designers intended the same "while you are holding your Spiritual Focus" clause to be how the level 6 ability works...